How good are the Clippers now?

[Tucker74]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... ncy-080703

John Hollinger wrote:

Assuming Brand stays, they're decent … and that's about it. I'm not sure they're even a playoff team in the West. Seemingly everyone is talking about the 2005-06 Clippers who won 47 games and comparing this bunch to that group, but what about the gang from 2006-07?

That team had Brand, Maggette, Chris Kaman, Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley healthy all year, and it went 40-42. Replace Maggette with Al Thornton, and replace Sam Cassell with Davis, and you basically have the 2008-09 Clippers … except with Mobley halfway to the glue factory and no depth whatsoever. So we're really supposed to buy that they'll rocket into the West's upper crust?

I wonder whether everyone is overlooking the personality angle, too. On paper, few pairings seem more flammable than Mike Dunleavy and Baron Davis. Dunleavy is a control guy at the offensive end who likes to call set post-up plays over and over, while Davis has bristled under every coach who didn't give him free rein to launch contested 3s off the dribble with 21 on the shot clock.

Don't get me wrong, Davis is a fantastic player. But I wonder how it's going to work when Dunleavy calls 4-down six plays in a row and whether Davis' disdain for structure ultimately will cause him to underachieve the same way he did for Tim Floyd, Byron Scott and Mike Montgomery.

While I'm on a roll, one other thing -- let's not overreact to Donald Sterling spending money on talent. Signing both Davis and Brand takes the Clippers to the salary cap … and that's it. Granted, that's a pleasant departure from the days in the late '90s when they were making trades just to meet the league's minimum salary, but it's not like he's going dollar for dollar with Mark Cuban. Of course, this will become more obvious when The Donald fills out the last five spots on his roster with minimum-wage guys, but that won't happen for a couple more months.

Might be getting ahead of ourselves but not much else to discuss while we wait for EB's decision. Curious what reactions are to this piece. I'd say the 05-06 team is definitely the better comparison as Davis is as strong as Sam was that year and Kaman shoud continue his strong play (hopefully). I also think we are deeper with TT, EG, BN and Q if he's re-signed.

The x-factor is Elton's career year. If he can approach that we have something special but in they hyper-competitive West does that translate to more than 45 wins and the 8th seed at best?

[NYCF]

[/quote] I also think we are deeper with TT, EG, BN and Q if he's re-signed. [/quote]

TT and Q Ross are garbage. I assume BN is a reference to Brevin Knight. If so, it is instructive to note that he was a disappointment with the Bobcats before landing with the Clippers. No offense, but it always cracks me up when people buy this crap about how Fish Face Dunleavy fooled the entire basketball world by snatching "Q Ross the defensive stopper" out of some garbage Belgian professional league. Hasn't this whole "defensive stopper" myth been thoroughly debunked and put to bed by now?

As to how good the Clips are going into next season, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows". It ALL depends on whether or not Brand decides (or should I say deigns) to come back.

[GuyverX]

Tim Thomas would be a better player in a different type of system. I think he would look decent playing under somebody like Don Nelson, for instance. Dunleavy's post-up fetish really didn't do Thomas any favors. Thomas is a good 3-pt shooter...that's what he did the year we picked him up for Phoenix and he excelled in that system. He comes to the Clippers and then begins to lose his shooting touch and then for some strange, ridiculous reason plays in the post more than he's shooting beyond the arc.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Dunleavy is a major reason why guys like Mobley and Thomas who were good 3-pt shooters suddenly lose their shooting touch for stretches at a time and want to post up more when we already have Brand and Kaman down there. Dunleavy really needs to stop with his incessant need to post-up every player that has some type of match-up advantage. It's so painfully predictable and I think Baron Davis will freelance a lot against Dunleavy's wishes if he continues to micromanage the way he has.

As far as Q Ross...his defense has slipped in the last few years but he's still a good defender. I used to be a big advocate of the guy but last season was an eye-opener. His defense, while solid, doesn't make up for his anemic offense. Ross was working on that 3-point shot last summer but it didn't really pay dividends and his lack of range past 15-feet hurts the team's spacing big time. He could be a good guy off the bench for spurts of defense but I think he'll be making a bigger paycheck with some other team...certainly bigger than the minimum amount the Clippers have paid him over the years.

I actually like Brevin Knight--as a backup PG who can distribute. I think he's a good candidate to come off the bench for Davis. He doesn't do too many spectacular things but he's steady as anybody in the league at handling the ball.

If Brand signs, I think this team is much better than the 05/06 team purely because we have an all-star guard who is among the league's elite in terms of creating shots for his teammates.

[madmaxmedia]

1. Baron Davis > 2005 Sam Cassell > 2006 Sam Cassell
2. Kaman now > 2005 Kaman > 2006 Kaman
3. Thornton PLUS Gordon => Maggette plus whoever (Mobley? TT?)

Those are the most important comparisons to 2005 and 2006. Sam Cassell and Chris Kaman had significantly different years in 2005 and 2006, and that had a big impact on the team's success in those years.

It's not like saying next year's Clippers are equal or better than 2005 Clippers is such a big deal anyway, since we won 47 games which may not be enough to make the playoffs next year anyway. (I'm assuming of course that Brand returns, if not then all bets are off.)

[NYCF]

Tim Thomas would be a better player in a different type of system. I think he would look decent playing under somebody like Don Nelson, for instance. Dunleavy's post-up fetish really didn't do Thomas any favors. Thomas is a good 3-pt shooter...that's what he did the year we picked him up for Phoenix and he excelled in that system. He comes to the Clippers and then begins to lose his shooting touch and then for some strange, ridiculous reason plays in the post more than he's shooting beyond the arc.

Don't forget Q Rich also had a career year shooting the 3 when he played for the Suns. When Steve Nash is delivering the ball such that there is no defender within 10 feet of you, any halfway decent shooter should hit a high percentage. Thomas is selfish, lazy, not prone to playing any D at all and always looking out for number 1. Like I said when they first acquired him, there is a reason he has been on so many different teams in his NBA career. Unfortunately, barring some kind of mini miracle, we are probably stuck with this underachieving dog of a player for the balance of his contract

[Luxury]

Clips are a 50-win team now, but which 50-win team will be out this year again? Yes the Warriors of 07-08 should be counted as a squad that can win 50 games, but didn't. Look out for the Blazers.

[Tucker74]

All good points made so far.

I think the key to an improved bench is guys like TT, BK and Q will hopefully play their rightful roles and be relied on less and in turn be more productive. TT has no business playing 30mpg as there's definitely a point of diminishing returns with him. Play him 20 mpg and he's less exposed on both ends. Same for the others. Plus, I'm sure it's easier to hit a 20 footer when your defender is mindful of both Elton and Kaman down low + a PG who can make a 20 footer; something they didn't have to worry about last year. And not to seem like TT's fanboy, his .387 in 06-07 is slightly above his career average so he's at least played to form one year.

The point about Dunleavy potentially stifling Baron is interesting. Sam thrived his first year and was given plenty of leeway. I hope Baron gets the same chance but I'm sure it's safe to assume he and Elton will outlast Dunleavy so I wouldn't necessarily cite Dunleavy's past failures as proof that we'll automatically underachieve.

[ClipperDomination]

I think the biggest problem we might have going into the season is team defense. There aren't many players on our team who play their heart out on the defensive side of the floor. We got to remember that a good defense = a great offense.

I think it all depends on that.

[GuyverX]

We have elite shot blocking and post defense on the inside with Kaman and Brand. It's the perimeter guys who are going to have to keep their man in front of them. Mobley is a good defender and Baron is decent. The young guys, Thornton and Gordon are the ones who have to step it up for this team to improve on D. We can just assume Thomas plays zero defense though. I really wish Q. Ross actually had an offensive game because he's the one guy who does provide excellent defensive intensity and hustle.

Thomas is selfish, lazy, not prone to playing any D at all and always looking out for number 1. Like I said when they first acquired him, there is a reason he has been on so many different teams in his NBA career. Unfortunately, barring some kind of mini miracle, we are probably stuck with this underachieving dog of a player for the balance of his contract

Yeah, Thomas is pretty much all of those things you listed. I'd just keep him on the outside shooting nothing but 3's ala TT circa 2006. It's about the only thing he can do well. It's hard to believe a guy who is 6'10 should only be limited to spotting up for 3's but that's Thomas for you. At least his contract should be pretty valuable next season when teams are looking to create capspace.

[mj_shoefanatic]

Clips are a 50-win team now, but which 50-win team will be out this year again?

If we can add a decent wing player to what we already have in place then I'd feel more confident about us getting 50+ wins and making the playoffs but if the roster stays the same plus we lose Maggette and Livingston then the only thing we'll have in common with the 05/06 team is the regular season record. All Diddy is gonna do for us is solidify our backcourt and make us a competitive team for 82 games(hopefully) but we'll need Gordon, Thomas, Knight, Powell and Ross to really be consistent off the bench in order for us to be taken serious in the West. Maybe since we'll have 5 guys in the starting lineup who are capable of scoring 15-20 ppg it will give our bench players the opportunity to focus more on defense and taking high percentage shots because team chemistry or the lack thereof is what will make this team or break this team come April. When the season gets closer and our roster is set I'll have a better idea of what this team can become because right now we're barely missing the playoffs even with a healthy EB.

[GuyverX]

We won't know for sure how things will turn out but with Brand signing here, I'd say we're in the hunt for playoff seeds 5-8 right now. I just don't see a trio of Davis/Brand/Kaman not surpassing 45 wins...but I guess you know what they say about good teams on paper.

[mj_shoefanatic]

^ Agreed. I just wonder who our FO is gonna replace Maggette and Livingston with via FA.

[Purpose]

^ Agreed. I just wonder who our FO is gonna replace Maggette and Livingston with via FA.

Dare I say the gamble on Starbury if he was bought out

[GuyverX]

^ Agreed. I just wonder who our FO is gonna replace Maggette and Livingston with via FA.

Dare I say the gamble on Starbury if he was bought out

I don't think Marbury's head could fit on that bench.

[mj_shoefanatic]

Yup Starbury would want to start and no way in hell does that happen with Diddy at the helm.

[sonic-ben]

1 Barron Davis
2 Gordon
3 Al Thorton , Tim Thomas
4 Brand, Nick Fazekas
5 Kaman, Jordon [will learn]

Looks good depend on injuries and adding to bench
if they keep Brand picking up Jordon will be good! Kaman and Brand will make him work or get an ass whipping every practice!

[mj_shoefanatic]

^ Where's Mobley, Ross and Powell?

[Chris Cohan]

When does Sterling sell to Seattle?

[GuyverX]

When does Sterling sell to Seattle?

When is he going to kick the bucket?

[Chris Cohan]

Sterling seems like the sort of Cohan styled owner who won't ever give up the NBA profits but, still, if Seattle wants a team back, the Clippers may be the most unattached team in any NBA city in the country.