Clearing cap for two max contracts

Ricepilar · Post #1 » by **Ricepilar** » Sun Jul 6, 2008 2:37 pm

I'm not dead set on trading Carter ASAP, but I do hope that our plan is to move him before 2010.

I mean look over the list of FA's that year:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... ents-09-10

Its tremendous. If we got LeBron, someone really good would want to follow. I think Joe Johnson would be a great, realistic target. The only reason Cleveland cant win is that they dont have another wing player that can hit outside shots and create his own shots when necessary. Johnson is that guy and he's definitely good enough to be the 2nd best guy on a championship team.

I hope Carter has a decent season and we can turn him into an expiring along with one good young player or a high pick. I definitely think that would be the way to go.

Adam1221 · Post #2 » by **Adam1221** » Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:45 pm

Check out my suggested Vince to Chicago trade.
Its exactly what we need in order to get two max contracts in that offseason.
RIght now its just pointless for Vince to be here and its not really fair towards him for us to keep him here.

Ricepilar · Post #3 » by **Ricepilar** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 3:38 am

I dont see Chicago as a likely destination personally. I could see New Orleans, LAC, Philly, GS, Washington, Orlando, or Houston. All those teams could use some help at SG.

Pugsley_2491 · Post #4 » by **Pugsley_2491** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 3:45 am

If we trade carter, it would be sometime after this season. We have to cut our losses on fans by 1 year at least so vince can at least put the fans in the seats for this year. So if we trade him next year that would be more realistic. Now, that's not to say we wouldn't trade him if the right deal came along (like with Kidd). I would love to get LeBron AND Amare as the 2 FA's. I can just imagine a team of Harris, CDR (or if we were to pick a good SG in the draft), LeBron, Amare, Lopez or whatever big impresses the most to be the starting center

kamaze · Post #5 » by **kamaze** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:29 am

Joe Johnson would be great Ratner would have $$ to spend on both and be able to go over the top to win a championship in Brooklyn.

lurkingobeiscity · Post #6 » by **lurkingobeiscity** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 6:00 am

Does anyone really buy the "Vince puts fans in the seats" thing anymore?

S.I.C. GM · Post #7 » by **S.I.C. GM** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 3:54 pm

^ I am with you on this one. They lose money every year. All bets are on Brooklyn.

I think VC is going to be gone by the trading deadline. If SA gets maggetti and VC gets back to form, I expect a team in the hunt for the playoffs will inquire.

Serpo · Post #8 » by **Serpo** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:04 pm

Two Max-contract are pretty unrealistic . Countless teams clear capspace for 2010 / are going to have capspace in 2010 . Getting one will be hard but two ? Talk about mission impossible.

mack69 · Post #9 » by **mack69** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 3:59 am

S.I.C. GM wrote:^ I am with you on this one. They lose money every year. All bets are on Brooklyn.

I think VC is going to be gone by the trading deadline. If SA gets maggetti and VC gets back to form, I expect a team in the hunt for the playoffs will inquire.

That is a thought based on your own wishes. They will not trade him. Unless CDR becomes a stud!!!!!! other than that he is not going anywhere.

Preludepunk27 · Post #10 » by **Preludepunk27** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:56 am

S.I.C. GM wrote:^ I am with you on this one. They lose money every year. All bets are on Brooklyn.

I think VC is going to be gone by the trading deadline. If SA gets maggetti and VC gets back to form, I expect a team in the hunt for the playoffs will inquire.

Even with his contract, they'd lose more money without him on the team. You don't have to believe me but it's the truth. Like I keep saying, he's NEVER gonna get traded unless we get a guy who instantly becomes the face of the organization or a guy we are 100% sure will become the face rather quickly. Something like Martell Webster and Raef will never happen. Regardless, unless Vince demands a trade, I'm positive he'll be a Net at least through this season.

deviljets7 · Post #11 » by **deviljets7** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 4:58 pm

Serpo wrote:Two Max-contract are pretty unrealistic . Countless teams clear capspace for 2010 / are going to have capspace in 2010 . Getting one will be hard but two ? Talk about mission impossible.

If anything I think once you get one, the second wouldn't be that hard.

Let's put it this way. One of the biggest arguments for keeping Carter is that you have to have other players to make the place attractive to LeBron or another free agent. By having that room for the second free agent, the opportunity is there to give LeBron a much better "Robin" than we would have otherwise. Think of all the guys who can be free agents in the summer of 2010, how many would LeBron likely want to play with over what will be a 33-year-old Vince Carter?

The key is getting that first free agent.

Universe · Post #12 » by **Universe** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 6:23 pm

Joe Johnson and LeBron James wouldn't make much noise with Sean and Josh in the post. Our best bet is to spend good money on a big as well even if one of the young players turns out half decent.

S.I.C. GM · Post #13 » by **S.I.C. GM** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 9:15 pm

deviljets7 wrote:
Serpo wrote:Two Max-contract are pretty unrealistic . Countless teams clear capspace for 2010 / are going to have capspace in 2010 . Getting one will be hard but two ? Talk about mission impossible.

If anything I think once you get one, the second wouldn't be that hard.

Let's put it this way. One of the biggest arguments for keeping Carter is that you have to have other players to make the place attractive to LeBron or another free agent. By having that room for the second free agent, the opportunity is there to give LeBron a much better "Robin" than we would have otherwise. Think of all the guys who can be free agents in the summer of 2010, how many would LeBron likely want to play with over what will be a 33-year-old Vince Carter?

The key is getting that first free agent.

I agree Devil. Yeah alot of teams will have cap space for FA agents in 2010, but to have enough for 2 big FA we have to distinguish ourselves.

If you look at our roster Thorn and Kiki have picked the right pieces. First, Thorn and Kiki have gotten an above average PG which Lebron has complained about not having. Second, Thorn and Kiki have front loaded PF/C. Lebron has made it to the finals with guys like Variejo and Z. Lopez has been compared with Z. When it comes to the energy for the guy that needs a haircut you can pick between S.Will and/or IMO Anderson will fit. Third, Lebron needs capable shooters around him so when he gets doubled and can pass it too. Most of the players are the roster are capable of that, big or small. CDR is going to be the X factor. Though IMO he wont be the "Robin", with hard work, he can be the perfect 6th man.

Now that leaves "Robin". This person maybe available through FA in 2010, draft (if we get a high enough pick) and trades or S&T can also be possible. No the question is WHO can be the perfect Robin? Though I am not comparing Lebron to Jordan, but MJ's robin was Pippen. Pippen was an all around player. this guy has to be able to if needed to step up and take over a game offensively and he also has when needed to shut a player down.

That is my take. If lebron decides to stay in Cleveland or signs somewhere else, we just need a different game plan.

deviljets7 · Post #14 » by **deviljets7** » Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:57 pm

S.I.C. GM wrote:
deviljets7 wrote:
Serpo wrote:Two Max-contract are pretty unrealistic . Countless teams clear capspace for 2010 / are going to have capspace in 2010 . Getting one will be hard but two ? Talk about mission impossible.

If anything I think once you get one, the second wouldn't be that hard.

Let's put it this way. One of the biggest arguments for keeping Carter is that you have to have other players to make the place attractive to LeBron or another free agent. By having that room for the second free agent, the opportunity is there to give LeBron a much better "Robin" than we would have otherwise. Think of all the guys who can be free agents in the summer of 2010, how many would LeBron likely want to play with over what will be a 33-year-old Vince Carter?

The key is getting that first free agent.

I agree Devil. Yeah alot of teams will have cap space for FA agents in 2010, but to have enough for 2 big FA we have to distinguish ourselves.

If you look at our roster Thorn and Kiki have picked the right pieces. First, Thorn and Kiki have gotten an above average PG which Lebron has complained about not having. Second, Thorn and Kiki have front loaded PF/C. Lebron has made it to the finals with guys like Variejo and Z. Lopez has been compared with Z. When it comes to the energy for the guy that needs a haircut you can pick between S.Will and/or IMO Anderson will fit. Third, Lebron needs capable shooters around him so when he gets doubled and can pass it too. Most of the players are the roster are capable of that, big or small. CDR is going to be the X factor. Though IMO he wont be the "Robin", with hard work, he can be the perfect 6th man.

Now that leaves "Robin". This person maybe available through FA in 2010, draft (if we get a high enough pick) and trades or S&T can also be possible. No the question is WHO can be the perfect Robin? Though I am not comparing Lebron to Jordan, but MJ's robin was Pippen. Pippen was an all around player. this guy has to be able to if needed to step up and take over a game offensively and he also has when needed to shut a player down.

That is my take. If lebron decides to stay in Cleveland or signs somewhere else, we just need a different game plan.

I think it's pretty clear that cap space alone is not enough to bring LeBron to the Nets. Too many teams are likely to have cap room (including the Cavs) so this is a completely different situation than this year with Brand/Baron Davis or last year with Rashard Lewis. So you have to have some sort of core in place to recruit LeBron (or any other big free agent).

I don't know if the cap room is there for 2 max free agents, even if Carter was gone. To sign 2 max free agents, you'd basically need $38-40 million in cap space to pull it off, something that I'm not sure is possible even if you dump Carter (remember you still have 3 1st rounders to sign and you have to deal with Boone and/or Krstic between now and 2010).

Basically there are four separate ways the Nets can go over the next 2 years in order to "build a core" around LeBron. For the sake of this scenario, I'm making the following assumptions:
1. The cap in 2010/11 is at $65 million
2. All three picks 09 and 10 first rounders are still here (cost $6 million)
3. Harris, Sean Williams, Yi, Brook Lopez, Ryan Andersen and Boone (RFA with a $6.17 mil cap hold) are here, while everyone else (most notably Krstic, Marcus and CDR) are gone.
4. The first year salary on a max contract (ie: LeBron is $18.3 million)

1. Play the course and do nothing
With this scenario, you're about $2.3 million short of a max contract. This can easily be fixed through a myriad of ways. If Lopez/Yi/Sean hit their potential and/or you strike gold in the lottery, you have an enticing group to recruit LeBron. If that doesn't happen, is Devin Harris and a 33-year-old Carter enough to entice him? Carter would be an expiring that could be used in a trade, but expirings only have so much value on their own.

One important note on this one, even if you let Vince expire, you would not likely have cap room in 2011/12 because at that point Sean Williams and Yi would both be RFAs with large cap holds. Those cap holds would eat up most if not all of the savings on Vince's contract, so unless you're dumping Sean and Yi, you can't add LeBron in 2010 and then another marquee FA in 2011.

2. Deal Vince in a non-salary dump
An example of this would be the Carter/Krstic to Chicago for Gordon/Hughes proposal that was posted on this board a few days ago. In this situation, you have turned Carter into a younger, cheaper and hopefully better "2nd option" in 2010/11. You have enough cap room to potentially add LeBron plus another player (around MLE level, maybe a little above the MLE). If you can get a Ben Gordon caliber player, I think this is a better option than option 1, but is it possible to get a Gordon, Barbosa, or Josh Howard caliber player in a Carter trade? Carter is over 30 and it's not like we're the only team looking for cap room.

3. Deal Vince in a salary dump
An example of this would be Carter to Cleveland for Sczerbiak and their 2009 1st round pick. Unlike the other two scenarios, you do not have a viable second "Robin" to join LeBron and Harris. With Carter out of the picture, you have a better chance of winning the lottery in 2009 or 2010, but as we know, losing 60 games does not guarantee a top 2 pick. The big thing this deal has in it's favor is that you have opened up about $32 million in cap space. Unless someone is willing to sacrifice money, it's not quite enough to land 2 max FAs (so you can probably forget about Wade, Bosh, Yao or Amare), but just about everyone else is in play (Joe Johnson, a 31-year-old TMac, Ginobli, etc.). If you were to dump Boone, you could have the room for 2 max FAs.

4. Salary Dump Vince and add a player or 2 elsewhere
This is basically a spinoff of options 2 and 3. Carter is dealt in a salary dump and you use your non-2010 pieces (the expirings of Swift/KVH, Marcus Williams and Krstic) or the MLE for a complementary piece or two. Examples of this are the Nocioni rumors or a Childress/JR Smith type. The result would be similar to option 2, where you have cap room for LeBron and possibly a MLE type.

S.I.C. GM · Post #15 » by **S.I.C. GM** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:43 pm

I totally agree with your post, Devil.

Out of our PF/C contracts, I think some of them will out shine the others leaving the Nets to trade them or let them walk. IMO S.Will, Yi, Lopez and Anderson will be keepers. I think Boone will be the odd man out. I really doubt Krstic might come back next year. If M.will isnt traded before the season, he has to have a good start next year. If not, He is definitely gone. I think CDR has a chance.

So recap

IMO

Harris
?
Lebron (if the Basketball gods allow it)
Yi
Lopez

S.Will(, Anderson, CDR

What would the Nets salaries be with those?

deviljets7 · Post #16 » by **deviljets7** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:22 am

S.I.C. GM wrote:I totally agree with your post, Devil.

Out of our PF/C contracts, I think some of them will out shine the others leaving the Nets to trade them or let them walk. IMO S.Will, Yi, Lopez and Anderson will be keepers. I think Boone will be the odd man out. I really doubt Krstic might come back next year. If M.will isnt traded before the season, he has to have a good start next year. If not, He is definitely gone. I think CDR has a chance.

So recap

IMO

Harris
?
Lebron (if the Basketball gods allow it)
Yi
Lopez

S.Will(, Anderson, CDR

What would the Nets salaries be with those?

The group of Harris, Yi, SWill, Lopez and Anderson is $19.36 million. Based on what a max contract has started at in the past, LeBron would probably cost between 18-20 million. I couldn't begin to guess on CDR since he'd be a free agent, but I don't think the cap hold on 2-year RFA's is that high, so probably less than $2 million.

I think Marcus Williams is gone regardless of how well he does. As a RFA, his cap hold would be over $6 million, which is just too high of a total for a backup PG, if you are looking to add additional talent with LeBron.

I was going to post in a few days some sort of spreadsheet with the Nets cap info, in particular the 2010/11 stuff. Considering all the attention being paid to that season and a shot at LeBron, it might be something worthy of a sticky when it's complete.

S.I.C. GM · Post #17 » by **S.I.C. GM** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:36 pm

deviljets7 wrote:
S.I.C. GM wrote:I totally agree with your post, Devil.

Out of our PF/C contracts, I think some of them will out shine the others leaving the Nets to trade them or let them walk. IMO S.Will, Yi, Lopez and Anderson will be keepers. I think Boone will be the odd man out. I really doubt Krstic might come back next year. If M.will isnt traded before the season, he has to have a good start next year. If not, He is definitely gone. I think CDR has a chance.

So recap

IMO

Harris
?
Lebron (if the Basketball gods allow it)
Yi
Lopez

S.Will(, Anderson, CDR

What would the Nets salaries be with those?

The group of Harris, Yi, SWill, Lopez and Anderson is $19.36 million. Based on what a max contract has started at in the past, LeBron would probably cost between 18-20 million. I couldn't begin to guess on CDR since he'd be a free agent, but I don't think the cap hold on 2-year RFA's is that high, so probably less than $2 million.

I think Marcus Williams is gone regardless of how well he does. As a RFA, his cap hold would be over $6 million, which is just too high of a total for a backup PG, if you are looking to add additional talent with LeBron.

I was going to post in a few days some sort of spreadsheet with the Nets cap info, in particular the 2010/11 stuff. Considering all the attention being paid to that season and a shot at LeBron, it might be something worthy of a sticky when it's complete.

So Devil for agruments sake, we would be around $45 mil. So we would have somewhere between $8-15 mill to play with. I think we can get another HIGH quality player to play SG with Lebron at a discount too.

deviljets7 · Post #18 » by **deviljets7** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:41 pm

S.I.C. GM wrote:
deviljets7 wrote:
S.I.C. GM wrote:I totally agree with your post, Devil.

Out of our PF/C contracts, I think some of them will out shine the others leaving the Nets to trade them or let them walk. IMO S.Will, Yi, Lopez and Anderson will be keepers. I think Boone will be the odd man out. I really doubt Krstic might come back next year. If M.will isnt traded before the season, he has to have a good start next year. If not, He is definitely gone. I think CDR has a chance.

So recap

IMO

Harris
?
Lebron (if the Basketball gods allow it)
Yi
Lopez

S.Will(, Anderson, CDR

What would the Nets salaries be with those?

The group of Harris, Yi, SWill, Lopez and Anderson is $19.36 million. Based on what a max contract has started at in the past, LeBron would probably cost between 18-20 million. I couldn't begin to guess on CDR since he'd be a free agent, but I don't think the cap hold on 2-year RFA's is that high, so probably less than $2 million.

I think Marcus Williams is gone regardless of how well he does. As a RFA, his cap hold would be over $6 million, which is just too high of a total for a backup PG, if you are looking to add additional talent with LeBron.

I was going to post in a few days some sort of spreadsheet with the Nets cap info, in particular the 2010/11 stuff. Considering all the attention being paid to that season and a shot at LeBron, it might be something worthy of a sticky when it's complete.

So Devil for agruments sake, we would be around $45 mil. So we would have somewhere between $8-15 mill to play with. I think we can get another HIGH quality player to play SG with Lebron at a discount too.

I realized I made a bit of mistake in the previous post since I forgot to account for the three future #1s (NJ's 09 and NJ/DAL 10) in the cost. That's probably another $6 mil in added costs.

Harris, Yi, Anderson, Lopez and Swill = $19.36 million
CDR = $1.5 million (estimate)
NJ's 09 #1, NJ's 10 #1, DAL's 10 #1 = $6 million (estimate)
LeBron = $19 million (estimate)

On a $63 million cap, that would leave the Nets $17.14 million to play with and 10 players under contract.

If you want to keep Boone or Williams you subtract about $6.15 million from that total. If both of them are gone, you can pretty much get anyone you want. If one of them is here, you can't get a franchise level free agent (ie: Wade, Bosh, Amare), but a damn good one (Rip Hamilton level?). If you want to keep both, you'll have less than the MLE to spend.

Preludepunk27 · Post #19 » by **Preludepunk27** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:53 pm

I personally doubt we're gonna keep all 3 future first round picks. that's just my guess. I'd love if us and the Mavs are lottery picks in 2010, trade up to 1-2 and have a highly touted rookie to go along with a max deal free agent. Of course this is my dream if we're gonna be worthless the next 2 years.

deviljets7 · Post #20 » by **deviljets7** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:00 pm

Preludepunk27 wrote:I personally doubt we're gonna keep all 3 future first round picks. that's just my guess. I'd love if us and the Mavs are lottery picks in 2010, trade up to 1-2 and have a highly touted rookie to go along with a max deal free agent. Of course this is my dream if we're gonna be worthless the next 2 years.

That's very possible, but I think you still have to account for them in terms of 2010 planning. Otherwise you might have to pull a Phoenix and trade a top 10 pick for future considerations for cap room