Hakeem vs. Barkley offense only

[ronnymac2]

Dream vs. Sir Charles. Who is the better overall offensive player?

[Warspite]

Barkley is the more eff scorer and a better volume scorer.

[Loose Cannon]

Hakeem had the most well-crafted low post game that basketball has ever witnessed. His footwork is unmatched and he showed isolation moves that only some guards could dream of perfecting...he's the only person ever of his size to capable of doing such and that was what made him so unique to his position. Barkley was more of a jump shooter, which isn't not a knock to his game, but he did not hold a candle to the Dream on the offensive end. Hakeem, hands down.

[NO-KG-AI]

Offense is pretty easy to measure statistically IMO, I haven't seen pace adjusted numbers, but looking at the raw stats, Barkley had better volume, better efficiency, more assists, and about the same amount of turnovers.

Also, I think both had a bigger impact than the stats show, so I'm not seeing either as a guy who was putting up empty offense.

I'll go with Barkley on the offensive end.

[Point forward]

Barkley was matched by few in terms of brutally demolishing the other team. Hakeem is not far behind, but in terms of PFFENSIVE PWNAGE, gimme Sir Charles.

[kooldude]

Hakeem had the most well-crafted low post game that basketball has ever witnessed. His footwork is unmatched and he showed isolation moves that only some guards could dream of perfecting...he's the only person ever of his size to capable of doing such and that was what made him so unique to his position. Barkley was more of a jump shooter, which isn't not a knock to his game, but he did not hold a candle to the Dream on the offensive end. Hakeem, hands down.

Location: Houston, TX

[Loose Cannon]

Where I'm located has absolutely no bearing to who I'm biased towards. You can easily argue both player's cases...and I happen to think Olajuwon was just better offensively, the PPG statistic doesn't entirely account for a player's offense. Hakeem was the dominant force behind Houston's 2 rings. He was so versatile offensively for a center: he could take guards off his dribble, he could run the floor, he was could set up his teammates, and he's the most creative player ever in the low block.

Olajuwon was consistently clutch and dismantled every HOF defender he faced. What he did at his position was absolutely unheard of.

Michael Jordan and Hakeem were the only players in that decade that you would look to as the most standout, dominant players. Barkley even played with Olajuwon on the Rockets team for 3 years and the offense was always ran through Hakeem, he was always the guy and Barkley willingly deferred. There's a reason for that.

[G35]

Hakeem had the most well-crafted low post game that basketball has ever witnessed. His footwork is unmatched and he showed isolation moves that only some guards could dream of perfecting...he's the only person ever of his size to capable of doing such and that was what made him so unique to his position. Barkley was more of a jump shooter, which isn't not a knock to his game, but he did not hold a candle to the Dream on the offensive end. Hakeem, hands down.

You don't know anything about Barkleys game to say he was more of a jump shooter. Hakeem may have the prettier moves but Barkley was a 6'5 Shaq with better agility and dribbling skills. You can legitimately say there hasn't been a player ever like Barkley and there isn't anyone in the NBA currently who could replicate what he could do at 6'5. Barkley posted more people up than Jordansbulls does comparison topics. Hakeem was the one shooting fadeaways all the time.

Hakeem can't hold a candle to Barkley on the offensive end. Barkley was even a better rebounder than Hakeem.

Hakeem .512 FG%, .513 eFG%, .553 TS%

Barkley .541 FG%, .558 eFG%, .612 TS%

Barkley has the higher individual scoring season, higher career scoring avg, better efficiency across the board.....

[kooldude]

Where I'm located has absolutely no bearing to who I'm biased towards. You can easily argue both player's cases...and I happen to think Olajuwon was just better offensively, the PPG statistic doesn't entirely account for a player's offense. Hakeem was the dominant force behind Houston's 2 rings. He was so versatile offensively for a center: he could take guards off his dribble, he could run the floor, he was could set up his teammates, and he's the most creative player ever in the low block.

Olajuwon was consistently clutch and dismantled every HOF defender he faced. What he did at his position was absolutely unheard of.

Michael Jordan and Hakeem were the only players in that decade that you would look to as the most standout, dominant players. Barkley even played with Olajuwon on the Rockets team for 3 years and the offense was always ran through Hakeem, he was always the guy and Barkley willingly deferred. There's a reason for that.

haha, nice job going off on tangents and not addressing the comparison. Offensive versatility does not matter now (as much). It's all about impact. KG is more versatile than Shaq, but that means jack when impact is concerned. Barkley scored with better efficiency and passing.

Hakeem had great games against great centers. The vice versa also occurred. Hakeem did it in the biggest stages so props to him. But "absolutely unheard of"? Wilt dominated everyone including Russell (individually), Kareem did the same, Shaq anyone? Hakeem did it against some HoFs, good for him. We all know that great offensive players can score on great defensive ones. i.e. Amare on Duncan. And Hakeem is great on offense; Barkley was better.

Hakeem is more dominant for his defense than offense. If you want to ignore shooting efficiency, PPG, PER (which is key on offense), Offensive Win Shares, offensive rebounding and Assist rates, then go ahead.

[Farm Raid]

Have to agree, versatility doesn't mean much. Shaq didn't have the versatility that, say, Rik Smits had. Shaq was still better offensively. You can talk about Hakeem's footwork, but many people say McHale had the best post footwork ever. That doesn't mean he was better on the block than Hakeem was.

Gimme Barkley.

[Malinhion]

AD28 loves to jockride Houston centers.

Let's be honest. Hakeem is one of the best players ever, but it was his unbelievable defensive contribution that made it that way. His post game was probably the most fluid and agile of any big to ever step on the hardwood, but that doesn't mean he holds a candle to Barkley.

Sir Charles could do it all over the floor. He ran the break like a freight train, posted up guys twice his size, and stretched the defense out to the three point line. And he did not sacrifice efficiency to get this versatility. He was the league's most efficient scorer (TS%) for four straight seasons while putting up impressive point totals. On top of that, he was one of the best offensive rebounders of all time, so its not as if Hakeem's rebounding prowess is making up any of the difference.

[Loose Cannon]

You guys are all on the premise that I'm putting Hakeem over Barkley because what he was able to do. Nah, I was saying Hakeem was the more dominant of the two if anything, he's Shaq in this situation to Barkley's Smits, KG, or whoever.

Sure you can bring in the statistics but don't bother with his last 3 seasons where he basically a rent-a-Center, he barely played in those last seasons and you calculate those stats up and they favor Hakeem...don't discount what he was able to do in the playoffs neither, that's where he really stepped up and took over.

Whatever though, it's a question of overall offensive production and obviously it's going to favor Barkley in that sense because he dominated the ball more on offense, he wasn't a middle man that spent the bulk of his time on the court in the paint. Whether Olajuwon would be able to set up plays in the same mold as Charles is a matter of dispute, he never handled the ball on the perimeter. He still ran the court on fastbreaks a lot like Barkley but simply put, he was a center.

By the way, don't misquote me about calling him just a jumpshooter, I was calling him more of a jumpshooter in comparison to Hakeem who did have a J, earned his paycheck in the block.

[Warspite]

You guys are all on the premise that I'm putting Hakeem over Barkley because what he was able to do. Nah, I was saying Hakeem was the more dominant of the two if anything, he's Shaq in this situation to Barkley's Smits, KG, or whoever.

Sure you can bring in the statistics but don't bother with his last 3 seasons where he basically a rent-a-Center, he barely played in those last seasons and you calculate those stats up and they favor Hakeem...don't discount what he was able to do in the playoffs neither, that's where he really stepped up and took over.

Whatever though, it's a question of overall offensive production and obviously it's going to favor Barkley in that sense because he dominated the ball more on offense, he wasn't a middle man that spent the bulk of his time on the court in the paint. Whether Olajuwon would be able to set up plays in the same mold as Charles is a matter of dispute, he never handled the ball on the perimeter. He still ran the court on fastbreaks a lot like Barkley but simply put, he was a center.

By the way, don't misquote me about calling him just a jumpshooter, I was calling him more of a jumpshooter in comparison to Hakeem who did have a J, earned his paycheck in the block.

You type as if your compareing 2 paintings instead of 2 sports cars or 2 fighter jets. They are quite measureable and what I dont understand is that they also played at the same time. I dont believe there was ever a yr in there primes where Hakeem was better on offense than Charles.

[Loose Cannon]

You type as if your compareing 2 paintings instead of 2 sports cars or 2 fighter jets. They are quite measureable and what I dont understand is that they also played at the same time. I dont believe there was ever a yr in there primes where Hakeem was better on offense than Charles.

Barkley was versatile in that he played PF, but also played SF, SG and even facilitated for his team at point forward. If you're comparing their abilities to score offensively as a big man, I'm taking Hakeem because he controlled the paint better than anybody, but overall Barkley was able to contribute in more ways than one on the offensive end. Hakeem did what was more efficient to his team and he stayed in the paint, that was his forte and his camping ground. Barkley was everywhere. It's not easy to compare the two, in that Hakeem was easily playing the hardest position at the time, he was designated to stay inside. It's a KG-Duncan comparison almost, except with very similar statistical production...you're out of your mind if you say one player blows the other player out of the water, that's simple not true.

[NO-KG-AI]

That's the point you are missing, statistically KG and Duncan are comparable offensively, Barkley and Hakeem aren't nearly as close statistically on offense, certainly not as close as KG and Duncan.

[joew8302]

I will go with Hakeem. His fadeaway was a thing of beauty.

[Warspite]

You type as if your compareing 2 paintings instead of 2 sports cars or 2 fighter jets. They are quite measureable and what I dont understand is that they also played at the same time. I dont believe there was ever a yr in there primes where Hakeem was better on offense than Charles.

Barkley was versatile in that he played PF, but also played SF, SG and even facilitated for his team at point forward. If you're comparing their abilities to score offensively as a big man, I'm taking Hakeem because he controlled the paint better than anybody, but overall Barkley was able to contribute in more ways than one on the offensive end. Hakeem did what was more efficient to his team and he stayed in the paint, that was his forte and his camping ground. Barkley was everywhere. It's not easy to compare the two, in that Hakeem was easily playing the hardest position at the time, he was designated to stay inside. It's a KG-Duncan comparison almost, except with very similar statistical production...you're out of your mind if you say one player blows the other player out of the water, that's simple not true.

Then call me out of my mind because in many yrs Charles scored as much as 25% more than Hakeem. Controling the paint??? Isnt that a defenseive term? Charles has Mike Giminski as his C so yes Charles is the one controlling the paint. On a side note Im wondering if you realise Hakeem played PF for 20% of his career?

[Doctor MJ]

Hakeem had the most well-crafted low post game that basketball has ever witnessed. His footwork is unmatched and he showed isolation moves that only some guards could dream of perfecting...he's the only person ever of his size to capable of doing such and that was what made him so unique to his position. Barkley was more of a jump shooter, which isn't not a knock to his game, but he did not hold a candle to the Dream on the offensive end. Hakeem, hands down.

You really to analyze some stats my friend. I say this not because I advocate looking at stats rather than watch players, but in this case the stats are so glaring in contrast to what you're saying, you need to have your perception altered, and then go back and watch again. Where the stats really kill your argument is that Barkley operating at a higher volume and with a much higher efficiency. There are arguments to be made against a player with superior volume & efficiency, but they have nothing to do with footwork or jump shooting in particular.

The reality is that Barkley is one of the great offensive players ever, and Hakeem really isn't on that level. Hakeem surpasses Barkley on the whole due to his defensive capabilities. Although even that doesn't make it as clear as you think. There is a reason why Barkley was the star player on the Dream Team, won the MVP, and took Jordan's Bulls to the limit.

[ronnymac2]

I think Barkley is better on offense. But I disagree with what you said about them being on different levels, doctor mj. Running your offense through hakeem means getting a high percentage shot for your team. Maybe not by him (though many times it was by him), but by other players as a result of Dream's presence and effect on the other team's d.

Both are terrific offensive rebounders. Barkley was just a beast. He'd bully his way into a good position, grab the board, and go up strong. Hakeem used his great length, athletic ability, and timing to tip shots in or go up and grab the ball.

Both were excellent finishers around the rim. In terms of a player drops the ball off to him on a drive or something like that. They were both such great forces that it was hard for defensive bigs to go help with team d because they couldn't leave dream or barkley. However, because more traditional centers usually defended hakeem than barkley, I'll give hakeem the edge here, because he's normally holding a shotblocker at bay just with his presence.

As passers/creators? Hmm...this one is tough. Hakeem was great at finding cutters and shooters. He also proved he could play with another pure big man when he and sampson were together. They passed to each other very well, a la duncan and robinson later, at the high post and the low post. You could run an offense through hakeem because of the attention he demanded from his post scoring. Barkley could create in many ways. He could create slashing to the rim, with his back to the basket, out on the perimeter, or on the fastbreak. He also demanded doubles in the post and passed to shooters well.

On the break, the edge goes to barkley. Both could dribble like a guard and finish with explosiveness, but barkley did it more often. He was a great finisher.

Now scoring (I'm gonna try not to use stats for this). I would have said Hakeem here because Barkley wondered off to the perimeter, whereas dream stayed in his most effective offensive zones. But Barkley more often than not got to his comfort zones. And the thing is, he was unlike many post players because he could get himself the ball in those areas. Most post and midpost players are usually dependant on somebody, usually a guard, to get them the ball, but barkley, using his small foward skills, could just move to a spot he wanted. Charles is also one of the best ever at establishing post position, and once he catches the ball in position, he's going to get a high percentage shot. He was very aggressive, which is something I like. Hakeem was obviously great, too, and probably had the most complete post game ever (almost everything mchale had, plus a lot more strength and athletic ability to compliment it). But Barkley gets the ever so slight edge at pure scoring.

For free throws, they were both good at drawing fouls and were also good free throw shooters. They drew fouls in slightly different ways: Charles using physical strength and aggression, hakeem using a combo of power and finesse to get the defender off balance, thus needing to foul.

This is close, which is why I started this thread in the first place lol. Ok, I'll go with Barkley, but it's very close.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Barkley is better on offense. But I disagree with what you said about them being on different levels, doctor mj. Running your offense through hakeem means getting a high percentage shot for your team. Maybe not by him (though many times it was by him), but by other players as a result of Dream's presence and effect on the other team's d.

Both are terrific offensive rebounders. Barkley was just a beast. He'd bully his way into a good position, grab the board, and go up strong. Hakeem used his great length, athletic ability, and timing to tip shots in or go up and grab the ball.

Both were excellent finishers around the rim. In terms of a player drops the ball off to him on a drive or something like that. They were both such great forces that it was hard for defensive bigs to go help with team d because they couldn't leave dream or barkley. However, because more traditional centers usually defended hakeem than barkley, I'll give hakeem the edge here, because he's normally holding a shotblocker at bay just with his presence.

As passers/creators? Hmm...this one is tough. Hakeem was great at finding cutters and shooters. He also proved he could play with another pure big man when he and sampson were together. They passed to each other very well, a la duncan and robinson later, at the high post and the low post. You could run an offense through hakeem because of the attention he demanded from his post scoring. Barkley could create in many ways. He could create slashing to the rim, with his back to the basket, out on the perimeter, or on the fastbreak. He also demanded doubles in the post and passed to shooters well.

On the break, the edge goes to barkley. Both could dribble like a guard and finish with explosiveness, but barkley did it more often. He was a great finisher.

Now scoring (I'm gonna try not to use stats for this). I would have said Hakeem here because Barkley wondered off to the perimeter, whereas dream stayed in his most effective offensive zones. But Barkley more often than not got to his comfort zones. And the thing is, he was unlike many post players because he could get himself the ball in those areas. Most post and midpost players are usually dependant on somebody, usually a guard, to get them the ball, but barkley, using his small foward skills, could just move to a spot he wanted. Charles is also one of the best ever at establishing post position, and once he catches the ball in position, he's going to get a high percentage shot. He was very aggressive, which is something I like. Hakeem was obviously great, too, and probably had the most complete post game ever (almost everything mchale had, plus a lot more strength and athletic ability to compliment it). But Barkley gets the ever so slight edge at pure scoring.

For free throws, they were both good at drawing fouls and were also good free throw shooters. They drew fouls in slightly different ways: Charles using physical strength and aggression, hakeem using a combo of power and finesse to get the defender off balance, thus needing to foul.

This is close, which is why I started this thread in the first place lol. Ok, I'll go with Barkley, but it's very close.

Well first off, my memory could be mistaken, but I believe Barkley was the one who led team's with truly great offensive efficiencies so I don't think there's any real evidence that Hakeem has drastically bigger court-wide offensive impact. You're on the right track though with that argument. The way to knock a scorer who scores at great volume and efficiency is to say he hurt his teammates in some way.

The part I put in bold above I'm really glad you recognized and stated. This is an absolutely huge difference and the reason why I don't even consider any big men when I'm asked to name the greatest offensive player of all time. If I had a buck for every time I heard someone say "Big Man X was dominating in the paint, too bad his teammates couldn't get him the ball more"...well I'd at least be able to have a few nice dinners. People simply miss the point: Consistently getting the ball in to the big man in a position where he can do something with it without wasting a lot of possessions requires significant skill which should be given credit for a part of every bucket a big man makes. Add in: This is part of why big men are generally not go-to-guys in the clutch (the other being that they're so easy stop by fouling, and watching them toss bricks). Don't get me wrong, in general I'll take a great big man over any other position, but I'll do so because their defensive impact dwarfs any other position on the floor, and they can perform at a top level on defense without getting so exhausted it drags down their offense (or vice versa) unlike the vast majority of perimeter players.