POLL: Dwight or Yao?

[Loose Cannon]

Dwight's efficiency down low comes from his ability to establish position in the post whereas in contrast, Yao takes hours to do. All the assisted percentages crap means dick as it doesn't even closely illustrate Dwight's game in the post -- when you reel in a board on the opposition down low and dunk it over his head, that's not counted as an assist. When you look at that statistic and see those non-assisted shots they're quite misleading, because it's not from creating his shot, they're from cleaning up...that's something NBA.com can't show you, you actually have to watch the game as evidence. The thing about Dwight is that he's so green and has almost to no passing ability in the paint which denies his team the luxury of running their offense through him. His awful free throw shooting doesn't contribute to his team down the stretch neither when you need somebody to step up and hit their shots from the charity stripe, his presence on the court then acts more as a detriment to the team instead of a luxury because his teammates are instead denying the ball to him, as feeding it to him will only indulge the defense.

As far as the comparison, it's pretty much Dwight's durability that acts as the case cracker. Who's better? I don't know, but I wouldn't have a problem going with either.

[Malinhion]

Dwight's efficiency down low comes from his ability to establish position in the post whereas in contrast, Yao takes hours to do. All the assisted percentages crap means dick as it doesn't even closely illustrate Dwight's game in the post -- when you reel in a board on the opposition down low and dunk it over his head, that's not counted as an assist. When you look at that statistic and see those non-assisted shots they're quite misleading, because it's not from creating his shot, they're from cleaning up...that's something NBA.com can't show you, you actually have to watch the game as evidence.

Yes, except the numbers favor Dwight when you assume that he shot and made every single offensive rebound that he took in excess of Yao. Read the post. I took the difference in ORPG, multiplied it by two, and subtracted it from Dwight's scoring total before dividing everything out.

The thing about Dwight is that he's so green and has almost to no passing ability in the paint which denies his team the luxury of running their offense through him. His awful free throw shooting doesn't contribute to his team down the stretch neither when you need somebody to step up and hit their shots from the charity stripe, his presence on the court then acts more as a detriment to the team instead of a luxury because his teammates are instead denying the ball to him, as feeding it to him will only indulge the defense.

Yes. Indulge the defense. I'm sure they love bodying up on Dwight in the post instead of covering Jameer Nelson on 22-foot jumpers.

As far as the comparison, it's pretty much Dwight's durability that acts as the case cracker. Who's better? I don't know, but I wouldn't have a problem going with either.

And its not just the fact that Yao is injury prone. Dwight is a ROCK. Up to this point, I'm not sure I've seen a more durable center. Even Kareem had played less time through as many seasons.

[Loose Cannon]

Yes, except the numbers favor Dwight when you assume that he shot and made every single offensive rebound that he took in excess of Yao. Read the post. I took the difference in ORPG, multiplied it by two, and subtracted it from Dwight's scoring total before dividing everything out.

What are you proving? That still doesn't rebut the fact that he has absolutely zero post moves down low. A lot of what Orlando does is working the ball into Dwight as he establishes positions, they run different sets for Dwight down low as he's absolutely worthless more than 6 ft. out. An assist is counted when you receive the ball and you score immediately, which isn't always the case for Dwight. He doesn't have to create out of the high post like Yao does. You can keep throwing your stupid percentages out at me but it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, complex percentages are obsolete next to my best pair of evidence: my own eyes.

Unless you start explaining your original post with those statistics and your "formula", then your grand post isn't worth discussing yet, John Hollinger Jr.

Yes. Indulge the defense. I'm sure they love bodying up on Dwight in the post instead of covering Jameer Nelson on 22-foot jumpers.

Uh, yeah, I think most defenses would take the chance of a 59% shooter on the charity stripe to Jameer beyond the arc.

The Pistons series really exposed Dwight's kryptonite: the majority of it was manning him up, fronting him, getting low, making him work harder for his position. Yeah, he didn't command any double teams, Jason frickin' Maxiell (who is giving up a 4 inch advantage) took Dwight Howard out of the game. It's a hard thing to do but when it comes down to it, it's very easy to limit Dwight from having his way (dunks in the paint) because his offense is so elementary. Unless he throws down an oop from a high screen and roll or receives the ball in precise position from a crisp pass, he is not going to score. Theo, Jason and 'Sheed all played physical and defended him aggressively, they anticipated every entry pass and he was deemed invisible. You would see his own teammates sometimes denying him the ball because the ball does stop a lot whenever he has the rock in the paint -- he's a horrible passer out of the low post and again they were manning up so all his outside options were covered. Down the stretch? Hack-A-Howard. Look at the deciding game where he shot a blistering 6-15 from the free throw line.

Defenses played a younger Shaq in a similar way, except he was able to affect the game even if he was taken out because of his knack of finding his guys whenever he was in the paint, he ALWAYS demanded a double team regardless, Flip Saunders in his right mind would never let Maxiell or 'Sheed play Shaq straight up or he's creating his own loss, that's not the case with Dwight.

Dwight dominated the league in the regular season but it's only every so often that you see him taken out of the game. He plays in the East where the majority of the abysmal defensive teams and bigs are and doesn't even measure up to the defenses Yao has to face daily.

[Guy986]

/thread

[The_Answer]

Dwight has no post moves? Ignorance at it's finest

Dwight scored 1,695 points this season.
Of those points, 529 came from the stripe.
As we all know, he was the nba's regular season leader in dunks. I believe the final count was somewhere around 200. Let's say it was 250, that would accumilate to 500 points.

Now, if 1029 of his points were acquired through FT's and dunks (which include cuts, lobs, etc.) then where did the other 666 (That's just odd) points result from?

Guess the NBA officials just awarded him points. Again, do some research before you make yourself look like a complete imbecile.

And Dwight doesn't face the defenses that Yao faces time and time again? What a joke. The only elite defensive team in the West are the spurs (Of which Dwight had a 30+ pts 15+ reb game against). Oh, then I guess you're speaking of the Warriors? Or how about the Suns? Nuggets? Hornets?

The East contains THREE elite defensive teams in Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland. Face it, your argument is as legit as NBA officiating.

[Storm Surge]

Yao brings the entire repertoire on offense. He's got the jumpshot, he's got the moves, the fadeaway, the hook, and when you foul him he makes his free throws.

Yao has the range, it stretches out to almost the 3-pt line. When Yao is on the perimeter, it forces the other team's centers to guard him, allowing easy penetration opportunities for his teammates and less of a shot-blocking risk with the Center not in the paint all the time.

There's a reason why big man that can shoot are extremely valuable, it won't really increase their averages, but will help the team score more. The farther your center can draw the opposing center away from the basket, the better it will be.

Yao is definitely the better offensive player than Dwight.

Yaos shooting range will help his team score more even though Houston is a terrible offensive team? And Orlando was one of the best offensive teams in the league last season, even if Dwight doesn't have any range. So this argument fails.

Oh ok, by your logic Dwight sucks at defense compared to Yao because the Rockets have a better defense. In addition, Dwight is a worse rebounder than Yao because his team didn't have the same rebounding differential.

[OhMyBosh]

Dwight has no post moves? Ignorance at it's finest

Dwight scored 1,695 points this season.
Of those points, 529 came from the stripe.
As we all know, he was the nba's regular season leader in dunks. I believe the final count was somewhere around 200. Let's say it was 250, that would accumilate to 500 points.

Now, if 1029 of his points were acquired through FT's and dunks (which include cuts, lobs, etc.) then where did the other 666 (That's just odd) points result from?

Guess the NBA officials just awarded him points. Again, do some research before you make yourself look like a complete imbecile.

And Dwight doesn't face the defenses that Yao faces time and time again? What a joke. The only elite defensive team in the West are the spurs (Of which Dwight had a 30+ pts 15+ reb game against). Oh, then I guess you're speaking of the Warriors? Or how about the Suns? Nuggets? Hornets?

The East contains THREE elite defensive teams in Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland. Face it, your argument is as legit as NBA officiating.

At this point of his career, Dwight's post moves are nothing to brag about. He's slowly developing a strong right handed hook that's pretty much unblockable. He scores from the paint from grabbing offensive rebounds, alley-oops, players driving into the lane and Dwight's defender leaving him open. Those don't count as post moves.

Yao on the other hand, has a very polished post game. With his physical stature and skills, he could arguably be the best scoring big man from the post.

[The_Answer]

Dwight has no post moves? Ignorance at it's finest

Dwight scored 1,695 points this season.
Of those points, 529 came from the stripe.
As we all know, he was the nba's regular season leader in dunks. I believe the final count was somewhere around 200. Let's say it was 250, that would accumilate to 500 points.

Now, if 1029 of his points were acquired through FT's and dunks (which include cuts, lobs, etc.) then where did the other 666 (That's just odd) points result from?

Guess the NBA officials just awarded him points. Again, do some research before you make yourself look like a complete imbecile.

And Dwight doesn't face the defenses that Yao faces time and time again? What a joke. The only elite defensive team in the West are the spurs (Of which Dwight had a 30+ pts 15+ reb game against). Oh, then I guess you're speaking of the Warriors? Or how about the Suns? Nuggets? Hornets?

The East contains THREE elite defensive teams in Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland. Face it, your argument is as legit as NBA officiating.

At this point of his career, Dwight's post moves are nothing to brag about. He's slowly developing a strong right handed hook that's pretty much unblockable. He scores from the paint from grabbing offensive rebounds, alley-oops, players driving into the lane and Dwight's defender leaving him open. Those don't count as post moves.

Yao on the other hand, has a very polished post game. With his physical stature and skills, he could arguably be the best scoring big man from the post.

Sure, why not, while nothing to brag about his post moves still accumilate for more than a third of his points.

Offensive rebounds lead to Dunks
Alley-oops = Dunks
Players driving the lane and defenders leaving him open result in dunks

And yet all that you've posted are less than a third of his points.

[Loose Cannon]

Dwight has no post moves? Ignorance at it's finest

Dwight scored 1,695 points this season.
Of those points, 529 came from the stripe.
As we all know, he was the nba's regular season leader in dunks. I believe the final count was somewhere around 200. Let's say it was 250, that would accumilate to 500 points.

Now, if 1029 of his points were acquired through FT's and dunks (which include cuts, lobs, etc.) then where did the other 666 (That's just odd) points result from?

Guess the NBA officials just awarded him points. Again, do some research before you make yourself look like a complete imbecile.

And Dwight doesn't face the defenses that Yao faces time and time again? What a joke. The only elite defensive team in the West are the spurs (Of which Dwight had a 30+ pts 15+ reb game against). Oh, then I guess you're speaking of the Warriors? Or how about the Suns? Nuggets? Hornets?

The East contains THREE elite defensive teams in Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland. Face it, your argument is as legit as NBA officiating.

Don't get it twisted, me saying he doesn't have post moves is a complete hyperbole. He shows a nice spin move here and there, and a nice baby hook sometimes but it's nothing impressive. As said, he's always getting the ball in good position, 3-4 ft. from the hoop where it's easy with a person of his size to lay the ball in or throw it down...just because there are excess points that don't come from dunks doesn't mean he creates it. If you're that much of an impressionable dumbass, then you can see your way out of the thread. It's obvious he has a lack of post moves, he scored a league high on 269 dunks, that's a 58 dunk deficit until the next guy in line in Amare, and that's not even including the points he puts in through on And1's. The rest are from him drawing fouls (realistically defenses deploying the Hack-a-Shaq technique on a lot of the freebies). With all that added, Dwight still scores an distinct number of points that aren't from dunks and free throws than any other centers (excluding Tyson Chandler). He barely (really doesn't) have post moves...your argument is weak, if you're going to make dumb, uneducated assumptions then don't even post, you have got to come stronger than that.

Dallas and Portland are both top 10 defenses, Hornets had the 5th ranked defense. Utah has one of the more physical defenses (they defend Yao very well), Clippers have Kaman, Denver has Camby, etc. It's not so much individual defenders, but there are better bigs that create match-up problems and become a pain to guard on the defensive end, in the West the teams are much more well-crafted and are more suited to defend the big men. Whatever the case may be, Yao still generally has a harder time against the opposition that Dwight, offensively or defensively.

[DrunkOnMystery]

What I've learned from this thread is that as long as the NBA has that rule that makes dunks worth fewer points than 12 foot jump shots, Dwight Howard will never be a decent player.

Also, that the Dream Shake wasn't a post move, because it often lead to layups.

[Baller 24]

What I've learned from this thread is that as long as the NBA has that rule that makes dunks worth fewer points than 12 foot jump shots, Dwight Howard will never be a decent player.

Also, that the Dream Shake wasn't a post move, because it often lead to layups.

The Dream Shake pwns both players post moves, don't even compare.

[Loose Cannon]

What I've learned from this thread is that as long as the NBA has that rule that makes dunks worth fewer points than 12 foot jump shots, Dwight Howard will never be a decent player.

Also, that the Dream Shake wasn't a post move, because it often lead to layups.

Dwight is more than a decent NBA player, he's the future of the League. No one is trying discredit him from the way he's earning his points, but when you start insulting my argument with points that just aren't legit, I'm going to respond.

My post was discrediting Dwight on how limited his game is, how his entire offensive production can be subdued and how he's completely ineffective when you play him right. There's absolutely no excuse for Dwight (who is supposed to the predominant center) to disappear when he's being defended by Jason Maxiell...that would never happen with Yao, you can't restrict his production because he's not one-dimensional.

[Forest]

The Pistons series really exposed Dwight's kryptonite: the majority of it was manning him up, fronting him, getting low, making him work harder for his position. Yeah, he didn't command any double teams, Jason frickin' Maxiell (who is giving up a 4 inch advantage) took Dwight Howard out of the game. It's a hard thing to do but when it comes down to it, it's very easy to limit Dwight from having his way (dunks in the paint) because his offense is so elementary. Unless he throws down an oop from a high screen and roll or receives the ball in precise position from a crisp pass, he is not going to score. Theo, Jason and 'Sheed all played physical and defended him aggressively, they anticipated every entry pass and he was deemed invisible. You would see his own teammates sometimes denying him the ball because the ball does stop a lot whenever he has the rock in the paint -- he's a horrible passer out of the low post and again they were manning up so all his outside options were covered. Down the stretch? Hack-A-Howard. Look at the deciding game where he shot a blistering 6-15 from the free throw line.

First it is very naive of you to judge a player based off one series. The Pistons have gave Howard problems for years. In matter of fact the Pistons give the majority of big men trouble. Its funny you seem to discredit them by just having frickin Jason Maxiell. Jason Maxiell played 21mpg in that series, which is hardly enought time to say "he took howard out the game offensively." When a team has 4 solid defense big men, none of which are crucial to their offense, they can be a lot more aggressive on defense. They don't have to worry about foul trouble (Rasheed and Mcydess def exhibit this by averaging 4+ fouls per game in that series). So why give up easy dunks? Few teams have this luxury. You act as if you discovered something new and then proceed to it is declare it's Dwight's kryptonite. Also, forming the conclusion that it is easy to limit Dwight Howard offensively while basically contradicting yourselve in the same sentence by saying its hard to do, too. Lots of things are easy to say. Like keep Shaq out of the paint and he is dismissal on offense.

"He plays in the East where the majority of the abysmal defensive teams and bigs are and doesn't even measure up to the defenses Yao has to face daily."

Yet your examples of good defensive teams in the west consist of Dallas, Utah, and the Hornets. Since you forgot, I'll throw in the Spurs for you. And you give examples of players in Kaman and Camby. Can I say it again? Camby...Anways, do yourself a favor and look at Howards game log against your great defensive teams. In matter of fact from what I have calculated, correct me if I am wrong, but Howard averages 23/15 vs the West. So the typical west is stronger than the east argument doesn't apply here.

The facts are Howard scored 1695 points last year and Yao ming scored 1209. A little fact is 1695 is more points than Yao has ever scored in an entire season. Meanwhile, Howard was the better offensive player last year. Factor in percentages and it still favors Howard. Statistics will back Howard offensively every time. He is just too efficient.

You have formed generalitites on Howards game based off Jason Maxiell and the Pistons, seeing in your continous mention of them in your post. It is a perception you are completely entitled to have but at the same time completely inaccurate. Statistics are in Howards favor. At the end of the day, it matters how many points you had and how efficient you got them. Whether you think someone got their points in a "limited" offensive game or with a mass arrangment of offensive moves has no barring.

[Loose Cannon]

First it is very naive of you to judge a player based off one series. The Pistons have gave Howard problems for years. In matter of fact the Pistons give the majority of big men trouble. Its funny you seem to discredit them by just having frickin Jason Maxiell. Jason Maxiell played 21mpg in that series, which is hardly enought time to say "he took howard out the game offensively." When a team has 4 solid defense big men, none of which are crucial to their offense, they can be a lot more aggressive on defense. They don't have to worry about foul trouble (Rasheed and Mcydess def exhibit this by averaging 4+ fouls per game in that series). So why give up easy dunks? Few teams have this luxury. You act as if you discovered something new and then proceed to it is declare it's Dwight's kryptonite. Also, forming the conclusion that it is easy to limit Dwight Howard offensively while basically contradicting yourselve in the same sentence by saying its hard to do, too. Lots of things are easy to say. Like keep Shaq out of the paint and he is dismissal on offense.

I'm using the Pistons' series as an example as it's most recent and provides ample evidence of how he can be made ineffective. You're entirely right about it though, they had 4 big man designated there for the sole reason to stop Dwight, 'Sheed contributes offensively but don't mind that. Maxiell was the most effective defending Dwight, bar none...Howard was having the hardest time against him so I can say he took him out of the game because it's true. The reason they were able to play him so physically and endure the fouls was because of Dwight's inconsistency at the free throw line, they were abused him down low and pushed him around, practically daring him to take the J or get his points from the line. Yao, under any circumstance will never be put in that position, they can't rotate those same 4 guys on him, you can't abuse him physically and expect him to miss at the line because he's the best at free throws at his position, you double him up and he's going to hurt you because he can actually pass the ball out of the post.

I didn't contradict myself, I said:
"It's a hard thing to do but when it comes down to it, it's very easy to limit Dwight from having his way."

It's simple, and you're not going to stop him without the right personnel or coaching. Detroit exploited his weakness just like they did Philly as the series progressed. You saw the same thing in the season we got further into it, Howard's production slowly dipped because teams started fouling the guy more and forcing him to make his money from the line. With Dwight Howard it's basically rolling the dice, he's going to make or break his team depending on his performance from the line. You don't have any risks like that with Yao because he doesn't have any noticeable flaws in his game.

Assuming you're talking about Shaq in his prime: You can't put Maxiell on Shaq because he's going to score on that one-on-one match-up during any predicament. You're not going to man up Shaq up individually unless you want to lose because he's simply going to exploit that match-up every time with his brawn and intelligence (the only defender who is worth mentioning here would be Ben Wallace who manned Shaq up better than anyone else but still had various problems with him). Double team him and he's finding his man on the perimeter...fortunately for Dwight he has a team tailored around with the outside shot, but unfortunately for the Magic he's not that type of player yet. Yao is.

"He plays in the East where the majority of the abysmal defensive teams and bigs are and doesn't even measure up to the defenses Yao has to face daily."

Yet your examples of good defensive teams in the west consist of Dallas, Utah, and the Hornets. Since you forgot, I'll through in the Spurs for you. And you give examples of players in Kaman and Camby. Do yourselve a favor and look at Howards game log against your great defensive teams. In matter of fact from what I have calculated, correct me if I am wrong, but Howard averages 23/15 vs the West. So the typical west is stronger than the east argument doesn't apply here.

The facts are Howard scored 1695 points last year and Yao ming scored 1209. A little fact is 1695 is more points than Yao has ever scored in an entire season. Meanwhile, Howard was the better offensive player last year. Factor in percentages and it still favors Howard. Statistics will back Howard offensively every time. He is just too efficient.

Good point, I was wrong. However, Howard has historically been outmatched whenever he plays Yao Ming head-to-head which is a very interesting stat to make note of.

Ever since Yao has developed into a legitimate scoring big man, he's prone to injuries EVERY year which is a major factor when you're comparing the two. While Dwight's flaws come with blemishes in his game, Yao has been unable to stay healthy so it's a fair comparison. I don't value one over the other because they're about dead even IMO, just don't either player blows the other out of the water, it's not true.

[Malinhion]

I posted an elaborate diatribe here yesterday but my browser ate it, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to prove AD28 wrong all over again. Here were my points in a nutshell:

1. It's okay to dismiss the facts and say that you see something different on the court. But you obviously are not watching Dwight. I get Magic games on my local provider at UF and I actually see more Orlando games than Miami games. If you haven't seen any of Dwight's post moves, you just haven't been watching him.

2. Again, you are judging Dwight against one of the best defensive teams in the league. That is not an accurate barometer of league status. Wade struggled in his first playoff series vs. the Pistons and won the title next year.

3. On top of it, you sound like you only watched him for six games. Not all season. You are basically working with a very limited and skewed sample size. Account for the fact that the Pistons' defensive schematic was meant to eliminate Dwight since he had just put up three 20/20 in six games.

4. Just because a guy doesn't get guarded like young Shaq (who was three inches taller and 40 lbs. heavier), doesn't mean he has no post moves. That is a ridiculous non-sequitur.

5. You're confusing shots (hook, dunk, layup) with post moves (spin move, dream shake, etc.) Shaq has the most developed post repetoire of any big of all time. What were most of his shots? Dunks.

6. Hating on a guy for establishing position close enough to the basket to get a dunk is a post skill! Shaq did it for years! Being able to do this is an amazing feat. That's why we rail against skinny, weak post players when evaluating draft prospects. Because they can't establish position!

7. Your critiques on Dwight sound like a bunch of regurgitated message board hater nonsense that you dug up from 2006. None of what you're saying still applies.

[magicfan4life05]

This is ridiculously off topic, but I just have to ask,

Malinhion, I'm assuming you get to watch some magic games on sun sports, but do you also get access to FSN for the remaining games? I've been searching for other ways to get that channel but have been unsuccessful and only get the games shown on sun sports.

Thanks

[Malinhion]

This is ridiculously off topic, but I just have to ask,

Malinhion, I'm assuming you get to watch some magic games on sun sports, but do you also get access to FSN for the remaining games? I've been searching for other ways to get that channel but have been unsuccessful and only get the games shown on sun sports.

Thanks

Yeah, up in Gainesville we have FSN for the remaining games. I wind up getting a fair share of Hornets games on FSN, actually.

My cable provider is Cox, pretty much the only thing you can get up in gainesville. But I do get FSN on basic cable. I think we have a lot of sports channels because of the Gator game contracts.

I'm considering just getting the league pass next season since my new roommate has a sweet TV and an HD box. It sucks having to wait on national TV games for the Heat, and sometimes I get blacked out on NBATV. Otherwise the Magic get a lot more Sun Sports games so far north. Heat games on there are scarce.

Hope this helps.

[magicfan4life05]

That's awesome, I really appreciate it.

Last thing, is there anyway to watch Heat games w/o League Pass in that area?

Mods I aplogize!!

thanks Malinhion!

[Malinhion]

That's awesome, I really appreciate it.

Last thing, is there anyway to watch Heat games w/o League Pass in that area?

Mods I aplogize!!

thanks Malinhion!

Yeah. Even though the Heat stunk it up last season, they were on national TV 40-something times. It was a painful embarrassment. I assume we'll get a lot of games again with Beas(t)ley joining the squad and the league wishing to showcase him.

Otherwise I get games on Sun Sports when the Magic have a light week, or get contracted to do a few national spots. Very rarely I might get a game on FSN.

There are some places that allow you to stream NBA games off the Internet, but I don't know what they are off the top of my head and I don't know if sharing that type of thing is really permitted here anyhow.

[Loose Cannon]

I posted an elaborate diatribe here yesterday but my browser ate it, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to prove AD28 wrong all over again. Here were my points in a nutshell:

1. It's okay to dismiss the facts and say that you see something different on the court. But you obviously are not watching Dwight. I get Magic games on my local provider at UF and I actually see more Orlando games than Miami games. If you haven't seen any of Dwight's post moves, you just haven't been watching him.

2. Again, you are judging Dwight against one of the best defensive teams in the league. That is not an accurate barometer of league status. Wade struggled in his first playoff series vs. the Pistons and won the title next year.

3. On top of it, you sound like you only watched him for six games. Not all season. You are basically working with a very limited and skewed sample size. Account for the fact that the Pistons' defensive schematic was meant to eliminate Dwight since he had just put up three 20/20 in six games.w

4. Just because a guy doesn't get guarded like young Shaq (who was three inches taller and 40 lbs. heavier), doesn't mean he has no post moves. That is a ridiculous non-sequitur.

5. You're confusing shots (hook, dunk, layup) with post moves (spin move, dream shake, etc.) Shaq has the most developed post repetoire of any big of all time. What were most of his shots? Dunks.

6. Hating on a guy for establishing position close enough to the basket to get a dunk is a post skill! Shaq did it for yeartes! Being able to do this is an amazing feat. That's why we rail against skinny, weak post players when evaluating draft prospects. Because they can't establish position!

7. Your critiques on Dwight sound like a bunch of regurgitated message board har nonsense that you dug up from 2006. None of what you're saying still applies.

I was using the Pistons series, once again, because it was the most recent showing, it had sizable evidence in how his offensive game is immaterialized. The same thing happened in the previous year against Detroit, and even weak teams like Atlanta were able to confine him due to his major flaws. There is not a significant defect in Yao's game that you can throw at me and say it's a detriment to his team besides his durability.

Shaq also possessed an adept arsenal of moves in the paint, they weren't alley-ooping off of every screen either. He did dunk the ball a hell lot but it's because he was able to overpower anyone and everyone at his position. It was efficient and nobody stopped him with Jason Maxiell. If he's rendered ineffective because the opposition is crowding the paint he's able to affect the game in other ways in that he could always find his teammates and improve them in that way. The Lakers were able to run their offense through him. Rockets run their offense through Yao. The Magic don't do that with Dwight, he relies on his team's penetration to get the dishes, they don't play off of him.

Seriously, the only thing I'm regurgitating are my posts...if you don't get it now you never will.