Feel for AI...

[bebopdeluxe]

Man...some of you guys are writing his obituary...like he just died.

He just had - statistically - one of his best seasons ever, for a 50-win team in the West.

Allen Iverson - starting PG for the world champion 2009-10 Philadelphia Sixers.

[fictionality]

Shot a lot, score a lot, lose a lot.

You go boy.

AI carried Philly on his back to the Finals, and Denver won 50 games last season -- that's "losing a lot"?

Foolish.

[Relentless88]

I love AI, one of my favorite players, proved that you don't need size to play and excel in the NBA, but when it came to winning and team play, Iverson didn't have that team mentality. Takes too many shots, instead of using his penetrating ability to kick out to teammates.

[ambiglight]

Man...some of you guys are writing his obituary...like he just died.

He just had - statistically - one of his best seasons ever, for a 50-win team in the West.

Allen Iverson - starting PG for the world champion 2009-10 Philadelphia Sixers.

AI has won four play-off games in four years, despite his performance. In that time his fans have had to suffer through watching him play his best ball on a non-playoff team in philly and then jump to a team with a whole bunch of potential but no common sense and then get scapegoated for their mediocrity. now that team has even less potential than it did before by giving up prematurely...the writing appears to be on the wall...

unless they plan on trading AI to orlando, Iverson's opportunity to prove his doubters wrong are becoming few and far between...

[bebopdeluxe]

ambiglight:

AI...playing "his best ball on a non-playoff team"...

Say what?

I have been a Sixers season ticket holder for YEARS. Was there for every game in the Finals in '01...and I still think that the Sixers playoff run was just about the most marvelous period of following a team in my almost-40 years of following sports...and Iverson was simply DOMINANT. Even when Oakley threw him down in Game 6 against the Raptors (an injury that forced him to miss time in the Bucks series), he still found a way to get 16 dimes in that Game 7.

But the years after that?

AI was a high-volume, low-percentage turnover machine. He simply had to go - because guys like Iguodala and Korver and the others were just standing around and deferring to him - as he jacked 25-30 shots a game.

But the Allen Iverson who played for the Denver Nuggets last season?

Shots down. Shooting percentage up. Turnovers WAY down. Deferred to 'Melo (too much, IMO...AI has more heart in his sack than 'Melo has in his whole body)...should have been the PG on that team (Carter sucks azz) with JR at the 2 - but Karl is an i-d-i-o-t.

One more year...then he comes home to Philly...and we do BIG things.

[ambiglight]

I love AI, one of my favorite players, proved that you don't need size to play and excel in the NBA, but when it came to winning and team play, Iverson didn't have that team mentality. Takes too many shots, instead of using his penetrating ability to kick out to teammates.

People often make that argument, but I question how they explain other "team" oriented players who are pass first guards, having even less success than AI getting to a finals let alone winning a championship.

Either what constitutes a team mentality is poorly defined or this idea of being a past first guard is over-rated.

[Apollo64]

He is one of the most spectacular players to ever play the game, the kind that puts people to seats, but there is no denying that the way he plays becomes a liability for a team that is trying to win a championship. In a strange way, he is like Steve Nash, a legendary HOF caliber level of player that will never win a championship, because, whether he can help it or not, has some shortcomings that critically hurt the team.

[bebopdeluxe]

Apollo64:

Was it Nash's fault that Robert Horry was a d*ck in the playoffs and got a bunch of Suns players suspended, when the Suns were on the way to going to the Finals? Huh?

Brutal. Simply brutal...

[ambiglight]

ambiglight:

AI...playing "his best ball on a non-playoff team"...

Say what?

I have been a Sixers season ticket holder for YEARS. Was there for every game in the Finals in '01...and I still think that the Sixers playoff run was just about the most marvelous period of following a team in my almost-40 years of following sports...and Iverson was simply DOMINANT. Even when Oakley threw him down in Game 6 against the Raptors (an injury that forced him to miss time in the Bucks series), he still found a way to get 16 dimes in that Game 7.

But the years after that?

AI was a high-volume, low-percentage turnover machine. He simply had to go - because guys like Iguodala and Korver and the others were just standing around and deferring to him - as he jacked 25-30 shots a game.

But the Allen Iverson who played for the Denver Nuggets last season?

Shots down. Shooting percentage up. Turnovers WAY down. Deferred to 'Melo (too much, IMO...AI has more heart in his sack than 'Melo has in his whole body)...should have been the PG on that team (Carter sucks azz) with JR at the 2 - but Karl is an i-d-i-o-t.

One more year...then he comes home to Philly...and we do BIG things.

actually i was talking about the post o'brien era.
if i recall correctly o'brien pissed off BK for stating the obvious and suggesting webber was essentially washed up and the team needed more talent to make a serious push.
its almost four years later and both korver and webber are gone...perhaps o'brien was right...?
so while I agree AI had to GO at that particular point primarily because BK couldn't justify making andre, korver, and dalembart untouchable if they were going to keep relying on AI...

but honestly philly should have drawn that conclusion way back in '03 when they clearly shifted their focus from building around AI to simply showcasing his talent while passively stripping the team down...

both AI and Philly would have been better for it...

denver is now acting as philly did back then...slowly stripping a contending team down, while showcasing the talent of a franchise player...look at the similarities. AC at the point seems about as effective as relying on Kevin Ollie. Now folks are suggesting JR run the point just like they did Andre Iguadala. When it should be obvious that AI should be moving to the point when they have so much talent at the off-guard position in a young player.

my point being that AI fans have been here before and its not looking good...

[Apollo64]

Let's not open this discussion again heh...even if the suspensions didn't happen, it wasn't guaranteed that the Suns would have advanced and won the championship. I was rooting for the Suns btw and a and a little something died inside me after that series. But anyway, this thread isn't about Steve Nash...

[bebopdeluxe]

ambiglight:

I agree with some of the things in your post, but I am going to ask you three questions (and a yes or no answer would be fine):

1) Since being traded to Denver, has Allen Iverson's game (both individually and within a team framework) improved over his last few seasons in Philly?

2) Did Allen Iverson's play on the court last season suggest that he is still an impact player in the NBA?

3) If the Sixers are able to sign Allen Iverson for the MLE next summer, will the overall talent of the Sixers roster allow Iverson to continue to play the type of game that he has been playing in Denver?

I answer yes to all three of these questions. The stats don't lie - he had a GREAT season for a 50-win team last year...and ther is no reason to believe that - should he join the Sixers in the '09-10 season - that he is going to revert to that high-volume, low percentage gunner that market his last years in Philly.

[ambiglight]

He is one of the most spectacular players to ever play the game, the kind that puts people to seats, but there is no denying that the way he plays becomes a liability for a team that is trying to win a championship. In a strange way, he is like Steve Nash, a legendary HOF caliber level of player that will never win a championship, because, whether he can help it or not, has some shortcomings that critically hurt the team.

I think we can agree every player has shortcomings. But typically its on a team to figure out what configuration of players compliment that players combination of strengths and weaknesses. Can we honestly say that teams with AI have actually done that? And when they did, his teams contended. Typically penetrating guards need dominant big men in the interior to be effective, see tony parker or even kobe...for whatever reason outside of that 01 team, teams have defied conventional wisdom and traditionally paired AI up with the stackhouses, glenn robinsons, chris webbers and now carmelo anthony, while putting fodder like kevin ollie anthony carter in the backcourt supposedly for their defense and passing, two skills AI is just as good or even better at. You're right HOF caliber players often fail to win a championship, but its hard to say whether thats because of their flaws or because the contexts that they played within for the majority of their careers...

[ambiglight]

ambiglight:

I agree with some of the things in your post, but I am going to ask you three questions (and a yes or no answer would be fine):

1) Since being traded to Denver, has Allen Iverson's game (both individually and within a team framework) improved over his last few seasons in Philly?

2) Did Allen Iverson's play on the court last season suggest that he is still an impact player in the NBA?

3) If the Sixers are able to sign Allen Iverson for the MLE next summer, will the overall talent of the Sixers roster allow Iverson to continue to play the type of game that he has been playing in Denver?

I answer yes to all three of these questions. The stats don't lie - he had a GREAT season for a 50-win team last year...and ther is no reason to believe that - should he join the Sixers in the '09-10 season - that he is going to revert to that high-volume, low percentage gunner that market his last years in Philly.

1. no, he's remained relatively the same skill level wise, he's just utilized in a different way in Denver. The o'brien AI was phenomenal in fact. The cheeks AI was frustrated and recalcitrant.
2.yes, he's still a top twenty player and there were times this past year that he cracked the top ten.
3.no, AI was motivated to defer in Denver. Do you honestly believe he would defer to andre iguadala or elton brand? doesnt matter though, if SOMEHOW ai accepted a seven million dollar contract, philly would be a contender regardless of whether he was deferring or not. that team would have the right combination of defense and offense with a much more assertive cast around AI than some three years ago. interesting if you guys pull that off...

[Vega]

I always liked AI and thought he got a bad rap, the dude has a huge heart and a ton of toughness. He'd play for his country when a lot of stars turned it down and he definitely seemed to be the most hurt by the losses.

He'd probably be best on a team with a play making SG. A team like Portland would have been a good fit in a backcourt with Roy, but they have Bayless now and probably have that role locked up.