I like Howard and all...

[creative1]

but we seriously passed up a trade to get Artest because of Howard? I think Ron is a better player at every aspect of the game. Can anyone please give me a good reason that we wouldn't trade Howard for Artest straight-up???

I know the guy is a head case but all in all... he's a better player than Howard and they are the same age. I'd much rather have a guy that can play SF/PF right now then SG/SF. We have a glut of wing men and Ron is the only one strong enough to actually guard PF's. All I know is that if we were in the finals against Boston this year... I'd much rather have Artest on Paul Pierce vs. Howard.

[dirkforpres]

Its a lateral move at best.. If Artest is better at every aspect, how come Howard is the one who can make the all star team, etc. I am glad they said no to that trade, but I do hope they can still swing a deal to acquire Ron.

[DDansby123]

Statistically, Artest has outplayed Howard offensively the past two seasons (though only slightly), and we all know Artest is much better on the defensive end. So Howard-for-Artest really isn't the out-there idea some would have you believe based on the on-court comparison only.

The trouble with Artest, though, is: (a) his past problems and the potential recurrence thereof, (b) injury history, and (c) contract (he expires next offseason). Without those three things, it's a slam-dunk deal for the Mavs.

So if Artest would re-sign with us, stay healthy, and avoid any anger management issues, it'd be a great deal for Dallas. But those things are uncertain.

[ppp000]

I also think Artest is the bettter player. Even though Josh's value to not at its peak right now, I'd rather trade him for someone else though. I also don't think Artest is really the answer.

[creative1]

Dirkforpres says:

Its a lateral move at best.. If Artest is better at every aspect, how come Howard is the one who can make the all star team, etc. I am glad they said no to that trade, but I do hope they can still swing a deal to acquire Ron.

Come on man. I think you look at every aspect of the game and they all go to Ron. He's a better shooter, defender, rebounder, steals, assists and 3's all go to Ron. I'm not sure on the stats but I would imagine he also gets more blocks than Josh. Beyond the statistics... Ron is a big, strong guy that can simply overpower people. Josh is freaky strong for his build but he's no Artest by any means. The only thing I might say Josh has an edge on is hustle... and he honestly lost some of that last season. Not to mention that Ron is one of the best hustle players in the league as well.

I also find it funny that you use the fact that Josh has made an All-Star team. That doesn't make him the better player. That's a silly argument.

[sweet daddy]

Creative1, check the stats again. Ron is not a better player in every aspect of the game.

Pros:
1) better defensively (how much better is debatable)
2) bigger and stronger, can guard stronger players
3) a little more of a nasty streak (would be good for the team psyche)

Cons:
1) rebounding (Josh is smaller but significantly better)
2) shooting (Josh is much better from the floor, 3pt, free throws)
3) not much older, but much many more years/games played. 9 yrs vs. 5. Josh is younger, has more left in the tank.
4) much more history of problems (Josh messed up once, Ron messes up constantly)

Is he better? Maybe a little. Does his presence in place of Josh guarantee us more success? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

It's a questionable trade. Personally, I don't think you give up Josh for him, that's all. If we can get him using other players, OK. Then we move Josh to SG and see what happens. Either way, it isn't the slam dunk that creative1 makes it out to be.

[creative1]

I also forgot to mention that Artest is one of the unique players in the league that can get 4-6 steals in a game. That can honestly be a game changer because he comes up with those plays in crunch time a lot. I don't think Howard has the kind of impact. He may have used to but he just doesn't seem to get after it as much anymore. You don't see him getting all those put backs and easy points on hustle plays.

I just think you are kidding yourself if you don't think Artest is an upgrade from Howard.

[littlemav]

ok man, artest may be better. i don't have a problem with saying that. you need to realize though that you could be trading howard for artest, but u might have artest only for a year. plus artest brings all of the baggage. do i think that he would be a great addition to the team? heck yea. is he worth the risk of blowing up or possibly leaving after one season compared to keeping howard? no

[Realmavsman]

There is only a slight difference between Howard and Artest. Artest may be slightly ahead but that is not really the point. Artest comes with so much baggage that his value is diminished to some degree. I think that is why the Mavs should offer a package that nets us Artest and Garcia. Yes we give up Howard and possibly Bass but we then have our starting lineup which would be very strong with:

Kidd
Garcia
Artest
Nowitzki
Dampier

Terry
Jones
Green/Singleton
Diop
Thomas/Rhodes
others...

I think that is a much better starting lineup then sticking with Howard and Eddie Jones or some other flavor of the game at SG. The Bench is helped with Diop back and I think Thomas/Rhodes is a good enough replacement for Bass at backup PF. Green is wildcard that may pay some dividends.

Trade would have to be Howard, Stackhouse, Bass for Artest, Garcia, Thomas.

I am all for making your top 7 players as strong as possible. During the playoffs team tighten up thier lineups and rarely go much deeper than 8.

[hph6203]

Artest is a better player, but he's not so much better that it's stupid to pass up on the deal. You mess with team chemistry with an Howard for Artest deal, and you have no idea how well Artest is going to mesh in.

Artest also has only one year left on his contract. So you may be getting Artest for one year, and then he's gone. Then you have Howard who will be here for several more years than that, guaranteed. Artest is certainly not so much better than Howard that you'd trade 3-4 years of Howard for 1 year of Artest.

Artest, if better, is not that much better at rebounding, shooting, shooting the 3, and free throw shooting. If you look at their numbers, Howard is better in all of those categories.


The one thing Artest brings that is better than Howard is defense, and versatility when using that defense. Artest can guard SG-PF. Howard can guard SG & SF. The real benefit of a Mavs for Artest trade, would be if you could land Artest without giving up Howard.

PG: Kidd
SG: Howard
SF: Artest
PF: Dirk
C: Dampier

Now that's a line up that can contend for a championship. Spend the entire year getting the young guys ready to play in the playoffs, and winning games. You have 3 20+ ppg scorers, a 10 assist man, 3 5 guys that can get 6+ rebounds per game, and improved defense overall from last year (Added Diop and Artest).

If you can't get Artest without giving up Howard, then there's no real reason to get Artest, as it's a lateral move with lots of risks.

[Rand10]

If you can't get Artest without giving up Howard, then there's no real reason to get Artest, as it's a lateral move with lots of risks.

sums up my thoughts

[TheLSUMaverick]

^^Same here. It seems as though the Maloof brothers aren't going to do it though.
I would trade stack bass EJ and S&T George for Artest and KT. This way both teams
satisfy each others needs. IDK why SACTO wouldn't do this trade. But if we could
make this trade work i think the rings would be half way on. We would be set!!!

[mffl_14]

You dont do this deal if Howard is involved. I have been for trading Howard this off season not because of the pot issue (which does annoy me) but because I really feel he quit on this team and Avery. But maybe with Avery gone and everything that I'm hearing Josh is working his butt off to prove something this year. Our team doesn't get significantly enough better by trading Josh for Artest. What makes Artest valuable to this team is having him and Josh on the floor. Other wise it's just basically the same team. I think the Kings know they are going to have to do something before the season so they are trying to get the best player back possible but I think they will realize a Stack, Bass & throw in some contract fillers will probably be there best offer. If not I'm satisfied with not trading Josh I just dont think the move makes us that much better to take the gamble on everything else.

[Realmavsman]

But if you are getting two starters for one starter then I believe that it is not a lateral move.
We all keep complaining that we have this hole at SG. If we could do this and get Francisco Garcia as well then we have found a clearly better starting lineup with really only losing Dirk's backup (Bass). We replace him with Thomas and maybe Charles Rhodes and I believe we are more than a lateral move.

Garcia is a nice young player who has size, defense and has a nice stroke.

[Flash4thewin]

I would do Howard for Artest in a second. Artest can take over a game/series while Howard is not know for that. Artest can even play some pf and is a game changer in every sense of the word. The idea that He would leave the Mavs who will pay him the most in the offseason for the mle is crazier than Artest

[JapanAir21]

My only problem is we're not sure of the exact details of the trade, I don't think a Howard for Ron Artest deal straight up would have worked. Maybe we didn't want to take back KT's contract. We know that Josh Howard was a deal breaker, but there might have been other pieces contained that we didn't want any part of (or parting with).

[JES12]

Howard plays as part of a team.

Artest plays for himself and plays disinterested if the play is not called for him. Very selfish play.

Maybe that is a product of the team or system he is in.....but that alone is enough for me to pass.

and add the fact that his neurons don't work any than the people on the short bus....
and add the fact that he is a postup player and Kidd is not
and add the fact that he either 1) will not resign with the mavs or 2) publicly announce h wants to be traded

and you have my answer.


Howard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Artest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pointguard01]

Listen the point isnt whether Howard is better than Artest or the other way around, because to me, thats irrelevant. But the question is would swapping Howard/Artest move us from the 6th or 7th best team in the west to being in the top 3 spots. Honestly, I can imagine anyone here telling me that they are confident that the swap makes us better than SA, NOH or LAL. Adding Artest to a team with Howard easily puts us up there. Without Howard, I think Dallas might get the 4th/5th seed and might be lucky to get into the 2nd round. And if Artest doesnt make a diffeence in Dallas, his value decreases even more and he's a free agent at the end of the season and then we are faced with a HUGE HUGE decision or resigning him for 5 yrs at big money. That will get ugly.

If we get Artest, take Kenny Thomas too, but keep Howard. End of story.

[DDansby123]

I can understand not wanting Artest...he has plenty of negatives to make trading for him unproductive. But some of the arguments in support of Josh Howard are mind-boggling to me. Simply put, this guy quit on the Mavs last season. I don't see any other way to view it, despite whatever "personal problems" he may have had. But he still refuses to come out and admit that his poor play probably cost us a series...that he let his entire team down. That's a little tough for me to see and still support him as part of my team. It's suprising that so many others are so quick to forgive.

Sure, Josh will probably come back and have a good regular season this year, just as he had last. But all I want is a group of guys to go out there in the playoffs and give everything they have to win ballgames. I'm not sure Howard is that type of player anymore. At this point, I'd take a downgrade in talent for an upgrade in give-a-sh*t.

[ppp000]

I can understand not wanting Artest...he has plenty of negatives to make trading for him unproductive. But some of the arguments in support of Josh Howard are mind-boggling to me. Simply put, this guy quit on the Mavs last season. I don't see any other way to view it, despite whatever "personal problems" he may have had. But he still refuses to come out and admit that his poor play probably cost us a series...that he let his entire team down. That's a little tough for me to see and still support him as part of my team. It's suprising that so many others are so quick to forgive.

Sure, Josh will probably come back and have a good regular season this year, just as he had last. But all I want is a group of guys to go out there in the playoffs and give everything they have to win ballgames. I'm not sure Howard is that type of player anymore. At this point, I'd take a downgrade in talent for an upgrade in give-a-sh*t.

Yeah Josh did quit on us against the Hornets but the team was already fragmented. And Dirk was horrible against GS...so unless you trade players after a bad playoff series...

But other than that, I pretty much agree. I don't think Josh is the problem, it's that the FO seems to think that he is a 2nd option on a championship caliber team. But I think we've all seen that he has never been a player to consistently take over a game or just come up big (or just actually show up in the 4th quarter ). I've always said that as he was forced into the role of being the 2nd scoring option, it meant less slashing, defense and hustle which is not a good thing considering he is not a good shooter.

Overall, I'm undecided on the Artest swap b/c it still doesn't address our weakest spots and I don't see a significant gain to offset the risks.