NBA All-No Defensive Team

[DaDragicShow]

Basically the whole Denver Nuggets and the Golden State Warriors team.

[Paydro70]

Iverson doesn't deserve to be on an All-NO Defensive team...

In general, he's not a GOOD defender because he gambles too much but when he's playing straight up man defense, his quickness and tenacity make him good at that. The problem is that he's often out of position and forced to recover because of his gambling tendencies. He's not a functionally deficient defender for lack of capacity and he shows this whenever he's playing normal defense.

I personally think much more of the issue is that he spends at least half his time at SG, when he's giving up at least 5" to his opponent. This is borne out pretty well by 82games... there are some confounding variables, but AI allowed 16.1 instead of 14.4 PER, and Denver as a whole allowed 108.1 versus 103.1 pts/100 possessions when he played SG instead of PG.

[tsherkin]

Yeah but we're talking overall; AI didn't spend much time on legit 2s as a Sixer, it's only in Denver where that's been a major issue and it's not his fault, really, it's Denver's for not having a big guard at the 1. I'm more concerned with the gambling.

[richboy]

I honestly think defense is more about the coach and the system they run rather then the player himself. Don't you notice how guys who were on defensive-oriented teams and then move to teams that are not as defensive-oriented suddenly seem like their defensive ability drops. The opposite is true as well, a lot of times when a player is considered to not be a good defensive player and then they go to play for Larry Brown or Greg Popavich or Pat Riley, all of a sudden they are considered either a solid or a very good defensive player.

Definitely, look at Ray Allen. Rivers isn't the best defensive coach, but Thibodeau is a genius, Allen played on a phenomenal defensive squad and he actually held his own on D. When players are on teams with an overall lack of regard for defense, the mistakes are always amplified. It's the direct opposite when playing with good defenses because the mishaps are hidden easier...really makes you wonder how good a defender really is.

Ray defense has always been underrated. In Seattle Rashard and Ridnour were the really bad defenders on the perimeter. Ray has always been able to make his man work for his points.

[And 1 Amare]

THAT'S WHY I SAID HIS SYSTEM WOULD GO FAR IF IT HAD A DOMINANT DEFENSIVE INSIDE SCORING PRESENCE LIKE KG OR DUNCAN.

But it wouldn't, because his system is definitively exclusive of plays for big men; Biedrins can't get a look inside and he's got some talent there. Nellie doesn't LIKE big men; he basically ran POB out of town without giving him a chance.

HE DOES PLAY BIEDRINS MINUTES, WHY DO YOU THINK WARRIORS FANS VALUE HIM SO MUCH? THE THING WITH BIEDRINS, IS THAT HE HAS LIMITED POST MOVES RIGHT NOW; SO FAR HE'S ONLY VALUABLE BECAUSE HE CAN CATCH ANY PASS HE GETS IN THE PAINT AND CAN PUT THE BALL IN THE HOOP AGAINST ALMOST ANY OTHER DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE. YOU JUST HAVE TO GIVE HIM THE RIGHT PASS, BUT SO FAR HE'S NOT REALLY INITIATING HIS OWN OFFENSE... IT'S OK THOUGH BECAUSE HE'S ONLY 22 YEARS OLD, HE'LL DEFINITELY IMPROVE.

Obviously he plays him some, but clearly not enough and not sufficiently integrated into the offense. Limited post moves don't matter, certainly not when he was playing with as many other scorers as he had been.

WELL DUH, HOW MANY OTHER COACHES HAVE/HAD THE SAME SYSTEM AS NELLIE BESIDES RED? NO ONE HAS WON A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH NELLIE'S SYSTEM, BECAUSE NELLIE IS THE ONLY COACH USING THE SYSTEM THAT HE HAS.

Because it's a dumb system to run unless you have a really wicked big guy who's a dominant defensive rebounder and an outstanding outlet passer who's also a dominant interior defender. E.G. one of the top-5 players in the league.

AND THE LAKERS WON BECAUSE THEY HAD A GREAT POST PLAYER IN KAREEM. EVERY TIME THE GAME SLOWED DOWN, THEY HAD A GREAT PASSING POINT GUARD IN MAGIC JOHNSON AND HAD A BIG GUY TO PASS IT TO DOWN LOW.

Yeah, and what about when Kareem was averaging 14 ppg and less, when Magic was the #1 scoring option and most of the offense was going through him and Worthy? Kareem was not much different than Biedrins at that point, except much, much slower and cagier from a two-decade career.

They also had a considerably more advanced half-court offense than do the Warriors, filled with much more innovative sets that were not 5-out even when Kareem wasn't playing (and his minutes dipped noticeably as he moved towards his final year).

THE WARRIORS DON'T HAVE A POST SCORING BIG MAN LIKE THAT, YOU CAN'T EXPECT ANDRIS BIEDRINS TO BE THE BIG MAN THAT LEADS A TEAM TO A CHAMPIONSHIP AT ONLY 22 YEARS OLD. THEIR ONLY POST PLAYER WAS BARON DAVIS. GIVE NELLIE A TOUGH NOSED BIG MAN LIKE KG/BRAND/DUNCAN TO PLAY IN THE PAINT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, THE FLOOR IS MORE SPREAD OUT AND THEY CAN FINALLY PLAY AN INSIDE-OUT GAME.

He wouldn't use him; Nellie definitively avoids post players because he likes to be "unconventional" and to play small ball. The only bigs he ever really tolerated were perimeter shooters. Look at his career.

He had, what, 7 consecutive 50+ win seasons with Milwaukee, right? He had spurts of Bob Lanier but primarily built around Marques Johnson, Sidney Moncrief and Junior Bridgeman, right? Even when Lanier was healthy, he didn't get a lot of shots.

He had Ewing at 23/11 in the 95-96 season and Nellie's Knicks did well enough; they went 34-25 before JVG replaced Nelson but he pissed off most of the players, tried to get Ewing traded so he could make a run at Shaq (who was going to be a free agent after the season) which, at the time, completely surprised me because he doesn't like bigs and has barely used them throughout his career) and because his system was, even then, more up-tempo and less defensive-oriented than to which the Knicks roster was oriented.

You're talking Anthony Mason, Derek Harper, John Starks, Charles Oakley, Hubert Davis, Charles Smith and he's trying to make it an up-tempo team? That wasn't smart. They were the 20th-ranked offense in the league, 3rd in defense. They had an identity and he was replaced because it worked and he tried to change it. And he pissed off Ewing.

Meh, i'm just saying that the Warriors were good enough to win 48 games this season without a bench and without a dominant big man... you add KG in the paint alongside Biedrins and that's an instant contender... it's not like the Knicks team you mentioned; this Warriors team was MADE for up tempo (unlike that Knicks team), and adding a dominant big man could have put them over the edge.

I don't really care about history, Nellie already stated how much he's changed as a coach; his system may not have changed much, but depending on the players he has he'll make changes.

As for this whole "Nellie likes small ball; doesn't play Biedrins" argument... Nellie resorts to small ball because of his lack of big men. If you give him an athletic post player, he'll definitely put him to use. During Warriors games, the Warriors attempt to run their offense from the post whenever the game slows down... they have Biedrins at the top of the key with the ball, and run plays. They also do the same thing with Baron to post up opposing point guards at the top of the key to get things started. So it's not like Nellie doesn't put any emphasis on a half court situation. It's just that eventually, those plays don't work because it loses it's effectiveness and they end up shooting three's; they need a guy who can just go straight into the post and score and draw double teams.. we're trying to make Biedrins that kind of player, and he's improving. A guy like Elton Brand can score in the paint and can draw a double team to kick it out to open players; that would make their offense more advanced and deadly, because teams would have to worry about Golden State's inside presence as well. Biedrins is different because he doesn't work with the ball in his hands all the time, he has to rely on guys to give him that perfect pass in the paint, but the good thing is that Biedrins is very efficient. It seems like the system is only pure fastbreaks, but that's only a result of not having the right guy to run a half court offense with.

Now, sometimes you'll see Nellie starting a guy like Al Harrington at the center position over Biedrins. That doesn't mean that he's not confident with Biedrins' skill, and it doesn't mean that "Small Ball > Everything else"; it just means that a guy like Al can cause great mismatch problems against certain opponents. Usually, you'll see him start Harrington against a guy like Yao Ming... on offense he can bring Yao to defend him out on the perimeter, and on defense the Warriors scrappy defense forces tons of turnovers on the slow footed Yao Ming. Yao Ming has done bad against Golden State since the Indiana-Golden State trade; but in his last game against them he finally had a good scoring night, so I guess Nellie would have to change his strategy against him. But when you have an opportunity to cause a mismatch like that, then I don't see anything wrong with going small ball for the game. Every time Yao would go to the bench from exhaustion, Nellie would bring Biedrins back in the game.

And just because Nellie let go of a talented post player in Patrick O'Bryant, doesn't mean that let go of him because he "can't recognize talent". Sure, it's true.. but only true to some extent IMO. Nellie failed to see the upside in POB, but i'm definitely sure he can see the talent in a proven all-star big man. He wouldn't ignore a guy like the names I mentioned earlier (Brand, Kg etc).

Basically, i'm just saying that you put a KG/Brand type of player on a team like the 06-07 Warriors, and Nellie can't afford to ignore a player like that. Don't get me wrong though, i'm typing a lot of ****, but i'm not really "arguing" with you; I don't 'look down' on you when I defend my team, since you're probably the most knowledgeable basketball fan on this forum. You're telling me 'what's been proven in history', and i'm just expressing my opinion on 'what I think would happen'; and in this case i'm saying that if you give Nellie a dominant big man, 'i think' it'll be a big surprise to the league on how much better the team would be. Chris Mullin gave him a tweener in Al Harrington and a "cancer" in Stephen Jackson, and Nellie ended up pulling off the greatest upset in NBA Playoff history... it's just that rebounding and inside scoring was what prevented them from going further.

[Duncanfan]

The Raptors would have 3 players on the no-D All-star team.

Jose Calderon (Worst in the league statistically)
Jason Kapono( Tries hard but just not athletic enough)
Andre Bargnani (Just Sucks)

You're a classified Jose hater.. statistically eh? Statistically, both Deron Williams and CP are worst defenders than Jose.. check it out yourself.. your avatar of the midget says it all..

[europa]

Ray defense has always been underrated. In Seattle Rashard and Ridnour were the really bad defenders on the perimeter. Ray has always been able to make his man work for his points.

Bucks fan here - Ray's defense has always been terrible although this season he showed more likely due to Garnett's influence. But with the Bucks, Ray was a horrible defender. He played soft and it showed up in two critical areas - defense and attacking the basket.

With regard to the current Bucks mentioned in this thread, Redd is a below-average defender who is average on his best days. Mo Williams and Villanueva are horrible defenders period. Every blue moon Mo can be a below-average defender but if you blink you'll likely miss it. Villanueva's just plain awful.

[Loose Cannon]

Ray defense has always been underrated. In Seattle Rashard and Ridnour were the really bad defenders on the perimeter. Ray has always been able to make his man work for his points.

Maybe on 1-2 possessions during a game, he's always sucked from what I've seen. Ask Joe Johnson.

[Loose Cannon]

Ray defense has always been underrated. In Seattle Rashard and Ridnour were the really bad defenders on the perimeter. Ray has always been able to make his man work for his points.

Maybe on 1-2 possessions during a game, he's always sucked from what I've seen. Ask Joe Johnson.