What did Vince Carter do?

[ronnymac2]

I've been wondering.... Why is it that everytime Vince Carter's name gets mentioned in a thread, I see the words unmotivated, waste of talent, disappointment, etc. I mean, yes, he obviously had more physical capabilites and talents than, well, arguably anybody ever. But for all the times somebody like kobe bryant or penny hardaway or grant hill or tracy mcgrady gets unfairly compared to mj and magic and other legends, and unfavorably, too, they never seem to take as much of a hit as Carter. They're never called disappointments (hill and penny are because of injuries, so I'm not really talking about them in that regard). Carter is.

Now I know about all the comments about him quitting on the raptors. But even in 04, he was still averaging 22, 5,and 5. Its really 05 where he starts declining and his stats look pathetic. But if I remember right, he was also suffering through injuries (though based on his comments, it's not wrong to assume he probably could have tried to come back harder from them and simply didn't....I won't defend him or ask for an explanation for that, because a player in his prime shouldn't have done that.) Then the trade to the nets, and he was one of the best players in the league again, with 27, 6, and 5. And leading the team, a not so good team, back to the playoffs.

I have actually went to a lot of nets games and seen carter play. He doesn't seem unmotivated or a waste. He's an underrated defender, and excellent, unselfish passer, has a very good midrange game, an underrated (to be fair, also underutilized) post game, no limit on his range, is a good rebounder, and obviously a great finisher. He's still one of, if not the, best athletes in the nba. And I find that he plays hard (I know that this doesn't prove much at all, but its a coool story...My friend got to shoot on the court in the third quarter of a game we were at for tickets to another game later in the season, so I got to go where the players come out, near the tunnel area, to cheer for him and stuff...basically floor level, for 5 minutes. Friggin Vince Carter goes running for a loose ball into the area, and I was literally 5 feet away from him where he saved the ball. It was pretty coool lol.).

So why do a lot of people dislike VC? Is HE, moreso than anybody else, unfairly compared to legends like MJ? Maybe these past few years in NJ, his prime (he was at the age where a player's prime usually is...I know people say he was better in his first years with the raptors.) was really Carter at his best. If taken as that was his best, Carter has been a great player.

[Cybulski37]

Before being traded, he was averaging 15 ppg on 41%. After the trade, he averaged 27.5 ppg on 46%. His tanking the season essentially led to his value being very low, and the Raptors getting next to nothing for him. The reason most people who hate him hate him is because of that. He gave verrrry little effort with the raps that year, and anyone who denies it is blind.

[etopn23]

VC was also screwed by the Raptors.

But shortly after Carter arrived in New Jersey in December 2004, many people labeled him a slacker because of comments he made during a TNT interview in which he seemed to suggest that he did not always work his hardest in Toronto.

John Thompson, the current TNT analyst and the former Georgetown basketball coach who conducted the interview, said he felt people misinterpreted Carter's words.

''That boy never said to me, 'Coach, I just laid down and quit,' '' Thompson said in a telephone interview last week.

''I was embarrassed and felt awful about it for his sake, because I knew what he was communicating to me. I think he was more expressing a desire of wanting to do better, as we all do.''

The main reason he gets criticized is a comment that was taken out of context.
(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all)

He's a hell of a player...

[JordansBulls]

Even though he has had a bad history, I would still take him on my team.

[tsherkin]

I think the biggest deal with Vince is that he had really terrible conditioning habits in Toronto. Then there was the whole "I'm injured in the knee" thing when he showed up dancing on-stage at a Nellie concert.

But really, the biggest issue with Vince has been that he doesn't like contact and actively avoids it, shoots a lot of jumpers (and fades on his jumper way too much), so he's not really exploiting his greatest strengths. Too, he didn't really add anything to his game after his second season, never really turned into the dominant scorer he could have been.

Everyone who followed him in TO was generally very displeased about that. (and also about some of his injuries, a few of which were definitely not as bad as he made them seem).

EDIT: He's never been someone who wanted to be The Show; he likes taking the last shot but isn't hugely comfortable with the pressure involved in being the first star.

Having said all that, the Raptors (and many other teams) could totally use him and Vince is still an extremely talented perennial All-Star player, so it's more a case of everyone going "Why do you play like Ray Allen when you could have been better than Jordan?" Unfulfilled potential, and all that.

Harry Palmer and I once stumbled onto the notion that Vince, at his size and with his shooting ability and athleticism, is almost unprecedented in the league in terms of physical traits. The closest thing would be Len Bias. And that's the tragedy, that he never really showed us how completely brutal and dangerous he could really become. He's built like Old Jordan but was near as athletic as young Jordan... with a beautiful and highly accurate shot out to the 3pt line (remember, he's shot 40%+ from three different seasons).

It's just disappointing that Vince, with all that talent, has only scored 25+ ppg three times... and two of those were his second and third seasons.

[Malinhion]

Vince gets a bad rap. While his volume scoring hasn't been that great, IMO he is one of the easiest players to fit into an offense. He can carry the load like he did in Toronto, or be a secondary playmaker alongside a dominant point-guard like Jason Kidd. Truth is, Vince gets knocked a lot for staying out at the three-point line. But he actually drives to the hole a lot more than other players, drawing fouls at a higher rate and taking a greater percentage of his shots in the paint than do most wings--especially at his age. Yes, he takes a lot of treys, but its because he shies away from his midrange game, not from driving to the hole. This actually results in a very high scoring efficiency despite his tendency for jumpers, even on the inside. He's also one of the best in the league at working on or off the ball. He doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to create a shot, like Wade or Iverson. He doesn't strictly work off the ball, like Amare or Hamilton. He's more of a combination of finisher and playmaker, in line with players like Kobe and Carmelo. This added versatility really makes him easy to put onto any team. I think he could easily be a second option on a title contender.

Carter is just as good as Pierce, if not better. But right now Pierce is hyped through the roof for the Finals and Carter is still getting hate for some nonsense that happened years ago, which was all totally blown out of proportion by a severely melodramatic fanbase. All this drama happened long ago. Toronto fans need to get over it and stop whining, or suck on a pacifier.

[Relentless88]

Michael Jordan with a three point shot, what could have been.

[The Main Event]

I truly believe that Babcock is the biggest clown of a GM in the NBA's history. If only BC had come sooner.

[halfHAVOC]

Carter is just as good as Pierce, if not better. But right now Pierce is hyped through the roof for the Finals and Carter is still getting hate for some nonsense that happened years ago, which was all totally blown out of proportion by a severely melodramatic fanbase. All this drama happened long ago. Toronto fans need to get over it and stop whining, or suck on a pacifier.

im a VC fan, and the only reason PP is better than him right now is because he is more consistent, otherwise they are pretty much equal.

yea but everyone needs to move on, and tmac said he slacked too so its not like u see ppl jumpin on his back about it every minute.

[Malinhion]

Pierce is more consistent because he's an ironman. With the exception of 2007, which was a massive tankjob, Piece usually plays nearly every game.

Vince's injury concerns have gone largely out the window, but he's still no Pierce.

[Volcano]

Vince didn't work on his game as much as he could have and relied on mainly his talent. A lot of people mistook his interview to mean that he didnt try on the court (although the year he was traded, he certainly didnt give it his all). Guys like kobe, tmac, penny, grant hill worked hard, trained hard and did everything they could to get better. I remember during one summer, Carter's off season plan was to try a new route and to take it easy and relax.

[HarlemHeat37]

I love him, but there's no way that somebody can argue that he hasn't been a disappointment..

he has become criminally underrated EVERYWHERE, and there are A LOT of misconceptions about him these days..he's a top-tier #2 option..he would be great next to a Lebron, KG, Duncan or Howard..

as for his career, he has simply disappointed..the fact that he's considered a disappointment, but has been a 22-5-5(+) guy for his career tells you how great he could have been..IMO, Vince Carter could have been the most talented player in NBA history..when you combine RAW talent, physical traits, athleticism..this guy had the best tools in NBA history..

as tsherkin said, the problem lies with conditioning, motivation and injuries..there's NO denying Vince Carter's talent..

it's a shame that he never got to play with a great supporting cast in his Toronto days too..the guy was 1 shot away from making the conference finals with an overrated supporting cast(fake all-star Antonio Davis is part of the reason for being overrated)..he never got the luxury of playing with a good big man in NJ, something they needed to push them over..he never got to play for a great coach that could have motivated him..

I just appreciate Carter for what he did bring..for me, he's undoubtedly the most entertaining player to ever step on an NBA court..

[NetsForce]

Part of the thing I don't understand with Carter is why people still criticize him for not taking it to the rim everytime and throwing down the big dunks that he used to.

Vince Carter has been in the league for 10 years and has had a number of surgeries he can no longer do the things that he used to be able to. Some people just live in the past and won't acknowledge that part of the reason Vince can't play like he used to and why he couldn't live up to his potential was because of the athleticism robbing injuries that he had...

[Birth of the Cool]

I think the biggest deal with Vince is that he had really terrible conditioning habits in Toronto. Then there was the whole "I'm injured in the knee" thing when he showed up dancing on-stage at a Nellie concert.

I'll agree with the above. VC was naturally gifted with a great physique but he was never a gym rat and who knows how much that might have effected his potential to get injuries. I'll also agree the Nellie thing was unprofessional (not saying he faked an injury or that doing some dumb dance steps means he wasn't injured but it's just dumb on all other levels). However, VC has matured since the trade and maybe the backlash helped speed up his maturity process. For the most part as a Nets player he is far more mature but he still gets hated on for things far in his past and has innuendo /false "facts" that burdens his image (Thompson interview saying that he didn't try his last year with the Raps which was edited & Thompson already stated wasn't true or that he called out a play vs Seattle which Ray Allen who was guarding him had denied & the play resulted in a Matt Bonner score from a VC pass).

But really, the biggest issue with Vince has been that he doesn't like contact and actively avoids it, shoots a lot of jumpers (and fades on his jumper way too much), so he's not really exploiting his greatest strengths. Too, he didn't really add anything to his game after his second season, never really turned into the dominant scorer he could have been.

I'll agree VC doesn't like contact but that doesn't mean he makes half ass attempts to score. VC once said that he tried to play that way & go full force to the paint & try to initiate contact & draw fouls (ala Maggette) but it wasn't working (wasn't getting the fouls) and he was frank and said he didn't feel comfortable doing so & preferred to try and find a way to score and if he gets fouled he gets fouled. Sometimes I do wish he would just get real aggressive and force the ref to make a call but on the other hand I respect a guy who has the old school mentality of scoring on his opponent and not relying on a referee to bail him out. I'll admit it sucks when he hangs in the air , tries to contort his body / arms to get around the defender and misses but when he makes it - it's amazing. It cuts both ways for me. I hate guys who put their head down and charge out of control into the paint looking for a ref to bail them out.

In regards to the jumpshooting thing again VC last year & year before & year before took less % of shot attempts as jumpshots than guys like Kobe / Pierce / T-Mac, etc. This year for example 67% of his shot attempts were jumpshots which is the same as someone known for being aggressive, Maggette. (Also See Joe Johnson 80% / Paul Pierce 70% / Ben Gordon 85% / Josh Howard 79% / T-Mac 80% / Kobe 75% / Redd 71% / Crawford 86% / Igoudala 72% / Arenas 79%, etc). He's not the aggressive player that RJ / LeBron / DWade / Artest are but he's not this chucker that many seem to think he is either.

Everyone who followed him in TO was generally very displeased about that. (and also about some of his injuries, a few of which were definitely not as bad as he made them seem).

I'll also agree that in Toronto at a certain point he started to get those nagging injuries too often and seemed to nurse them too long BUT he got berated for it in the media and with the fans and at one point he came back too early to try & help the Raptors make a push for the playoffs and ended up injuring his knee (this might have been soon after the dunk & twirl over Duncan and the Spurs IIRC). So again it cut's both ways.

EDIT: He's never been someone who wanted to be The Show; he likes taking the last shot but isn't hugely comfortable with the pressure involved in being the first star.

Again agree (but disagree again lol). He enjoys the limelight & loves to take the pressure shots for sure yet at the same time he prefers to defer leadership (in Toronto to Oakley / Antonio Davis , in New Jersey to Kidd..and he even said after it was rumored that T-Mac left T.O. because he wanted his own team and not live under VC's shadow VC said he would have gladly deferred to T-Mac). I think this is just his character. For the most part he's a good teammate & wants to be just part of the team but when Kidd departed last year it was the very first time I can say I was impressed with VC's leadership both on & off the court. I think his personality is such that any other strong personality in the locker room he will follow but this year's Nets he is the leader & vet and from all accounts he is finally taking/accepting this role on full on.

Having said all that, the Raptors (and many other teams) could totally use him and Vince is still an extremely talented perennial All-Star player, so it's more a case of everyone going "Why do you play like Ray Allen when you could have been better than Jordan?" Unfulfilled potential, and all that.

I think expectations really are at the heart of the matter. The OP asks what did Vince Carter do ? Most critics see it as What Vince Carter didn't do. Expectations has killed him in the media. I read so many people saying he could easily have been MJ or better which I find laughable. Like Bird said (paraphrasing) MJ is God in the form of a basketball player. It's shouldn't be VC's fault or burden that he OVERACHIEVED early in his NBA Career and the media desperately clung on to him as the next next next next next MJ. VC was chosen 5th in the NBA Draft. Coming out of North Carolina he was known as a solid defender with crazy athleticism who even back then was a team player. Not many expected VC to get as good a jumpshot as he did, or to extend his shooting ability to 3pt range. Not many expected VC to be a solid playmaker at the 2-spot or to have good enough ball handling ability to breakdown players at the NBA level. VC worked on these things & improved but no one gives him credit for that. They remember the VC that exploded onto their nightly highlights but don't understand how he got to even that point.

It's just disappointing that Vince, with all that talent, has only scored 25+ ppg three times... and two of those were his second and third seasons.

I don't think it's that disappointing. His dunk in your face style has lessened due to decrease of athleticism (still high among NBA players) and also frankly because it is a style that increases one's chances of injures (impact of knee's/joints landing on the court over & over & over & also just the increase of physical contact when playing that way...see DWade). It's fun for the spectators but it's a good way to possibly shorten one's career. VC is still a guy who can light up a team for 30/40+ on any given night but I also think people see the less explosive VC and decry his talent (see Magic Johnson) but they don't give him credit for being a better all around player. This past year he tied for his best rebounds a game for his career, and had his best assist per game for his career and has his lowest turnovers per game of his Nets career & shot a respectable 0.456 fg% which was his highest since his first year with the Nets but some people who will be the first to cry about hollow stats, etc never give VC credit for his improved all around game (including defense).

I don't think VC's perception will ever change until he wins a NBA championship (which is now becoming more unlikely seeing the Nets rebuilding situation & his age) but to me he was a great player that never got to play with another great player that would fit his style (meaning another great frontcourt player like Shaq). VC plays his best partnering with bigmen (see Antonio Davis, Kristic, Boone, Moore, hopefully Lopez) but the best bigman he ever got to play with was AD (count Hakeem out since he was almost done by the time he came to T.O.).

To me my biggest complain with VC is consistency. He can't expect to drop 35+ one night & drop 18 the next. His team has go to know he's good for 20+ at a effective FG% game in / game out (for the most part..no one's a robot). Anyways that's my take...not even sure how this is a Player Comparison thing lol. Understood if this was way too long & boring for some to read.

[BrownBalla]

this talk about Vince Carter and Paul Peirce made me remember back when Vince Carter got injuried from dunking over/through paul peirce and kevin garnett.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MBgqMBIRAWU

[TdotWattz]

Vince Carter is the greatest Raptor ever. He owned the city. Billboards everywhere, had the name Air Canada. Im sure he misses that hype.

[tsherkin]

Vince gets a bad rap. While his volume scoring hasn't been that great, IMO he is one of the easiest players to fit into an offense. He can carry the load like he did in Toronto, or be a secondary playmaker alongside a dominant point-guard like Jason Kidd.

True.

Truth is, Vince gets knocked a lot for staying out at the three-point line. But he actually drives to the hole a lot more than other players, drawing fouls at a higher rate and taking a greater percentage of his shots in the paint than do most wings--especially at his age.

Not so much, no. Vince's DrawF and his other indicators (FTA/FGA, FTA/g and such) are indicative of a guy who really isn't as aggressive as he should be and have been since 01-02. He got a bit of a boost in his first year and a half, two and a half years in Jersey because of the new rules but he's rather markedly below the elite level in terms of drawing fouls.

Yes, he takes a lot of treys, but its because he shies away from his midrange game, not from driving to the hole. This actually results in a very high scoring efficiency despite his tendency for jumpers, even on the inside.

That's actually explicitly untrue, especially last year. Vince took 495 shots point-blank, took 273 3PA and took 518 shots in the mid-range zones.... or a good 40% of his shots. That's actually a higher percentage than either the point-blank drives or the threes (considerably more than the threes and roughly the same as the point-blank stuff). He was definitely working the mid-range game... as he has since his second season. Vince has a simple post game, has a great pull-up and moves (as you note) particularly well off the ball for jumpers on curls and pin-down action and the like.

He's more of a combination of finisher and playmaker, in line with players like Kobe and Carmelo.

Worse than Kobe, markedly superior to Carmelo. Kobe Bryant is one of the point-forwards of the league, ala Lebron and T-Mac. Vince isn't quite at that level, though he is indeed an underrated ball-handler and distributor. We ran him at the point in short stretches when we wanted big lineups in one of his last two seasons in Toronto.

This added versatility really makes him easy to put onto any team. I think he could easily be a second option on a title contender.

Unquestionably; Vince's ideal role is second bananna on a contender.

Carter is just as good as Pierce, if not better.

Talent-wise, undoubtedly. But he's neither a comparable rebounder nor a comparable defender. Vince is a more talented scorer and in general a better shooter. Pierce is a better post scorer, close as a shooter (he's had a 40%+ 3P season or two himself) and is a lot tougher.

Pierce may indeed be hyped because of the Finals but there are truths (excuse the awful pun) about his game that have been noted since early in his career and those things have not changed to date. He's tough, he's aggressive... Vince is a better playoff performer as "The Man," though. A lot better.

I'll agree with the above. VC was naturally gifted with a great physique but he was never a gym rat and who knows how much that might have effected his potential to get injuries. I'll also agree the Nellie thing was unprofessional (not saying he faked an injury or that doing some dumb dance steps means he wasn't injured but it's just dumb on all other levels). However, VC has matured since the trade and maybe the backlash helped speed up his maturity process. For the most part as a Nets player he is far more mature but he still gets hated on for things far in his past and has innuendo /false "facts" that burdens his image (Thompson interview saying that he didn't try his last year with the Raps which was edited & Thompson already stated wasn't true or that he called out a play vs Seattle which Ray Allen who was guarding him had denied & the play resulted in a Matt Bonner score from a VC pass).

Yeah, I was watching that game, that wasn't a big deal at all. And Vince's comments about effort and the like were indeed taken out of context and muddled. That was unfortunate, and Toronto's response to that was mostly unfair, especially to a guy who had been The Franchise for a half-decade or so. Vince basically made basketball in Canada relevant, and it isn't often that we stop to recognize that.

I'll agree VC doesn't like contact but that doesn't mean he makes half ass attempts to score.

I never meant to imply that, I meant that he tends to go to his jumper (especially his fade) or to incredibly difficult, acrobatic layup attempts instead of putting his shoulder in a guy's chest and bullying his way to the rim, or just jumping into a guy to incite contact. He's certainly no Wade or Kobe, he doesn't do a lot to help inflate his foul calls, he just whines at the refs (not a criticism, almost everyone does that and it's basically expected).

VC once said that he tried to play that way & go full force to the paint & try to initiate contact & draw fouls (ala Maggette) but it wasn't working (wasn't getting the fouls) and he was frank and said he didn't feel comfortable doing so & preferred to try and find a way to score and if he gets fouled he gets fouled.

Which is a weak mentality and Vince hasn't played that way since basically his second season in the league. He wasn't getting a lot of respect because he was a really young player and he just didn't stick with it.

Sometimes I do wish he would just get real aggressive and force the ref to make a call but on the other hand I respect a guy who has the old school mentality of scoring on his opponent and not relying on a referee to bail him out.

It's not necessarily about relying on the ref to bail you out, though, I mean he doesn't have to be Wade, flailing around like he got hammered or Iverson, sliding 18 feet across the floor with a miffed look on his face. Just stay aggressive and initiate contact while trying to make the shot.

In regards to the jumpshooting thing again VC last year & year before & year before took less % of shot attempts as jumpshots than guys like Kobe / Pierce / T-Mac, etc.

This year for example 67% of his shot attempts were jumpshots which is the same as someone known for being aggressive, Maggette. (Also See Joe Johnson 80% / Paul Pierce 70% / Ben Gordon 85% / Josh Howard 79% / T-Mac 80% / Kobe 75% / Redd 71% / Crawford 86% / Igoudala 72% / Arenas 79%, etc). He's not the aggressive player that RJ / LeBron / DWade / Artest are but he's not this chucker that many seem to think he is either.

He's not a chucker, the problem is more the type of long shots he takes. He takes a lot of bad fadeaways. Anyway, in New Jersey, he's actually posting very solid scoring efficiency numbers and in particular, this past season, he took under 4 3PA/g, which was FANTASTIC to see. The big problem was that his FTA/g dropped off from 7 a game to 5.6. and he was taking almost 3 fewer shots per game than the previous year, so he went from around 25 ppg to around 21 (he lost a full ppg because of the FT drop and 2.2 ppg from the drop off in shot attempts, as well as about 0.7 ppg from fewer 3s).

I'll also agree that in Toronto at a certain point he started to get those nagging injuries too often and seemed to nurse them too long BUT he got berated for it in the media and with the fans and at one point he came back too early to try & help the Raptors make a push for the playoffs and ended up injuring his knee (this might have been soon after the dunk & twirl over Duncan and the Spurs IIRC). So again it cut's both ways.

Well, no; it's his own damned fault for being a lazy punk about his conditioning. It's one of the reasons T-Mac fell off so hard after his epic 32 ppg season (he hadn't started doing in-season conditioning until that season). And yes, Vince came back too early one season and that hurt him... but one instance doesn't forgive 3 years of that stuff. Some of them (most of them) were perfectly legitimate injuries (though primarily his fault), some were freak accidents from landing on, say, Bruce Bowen's foot and crumpling his ankle (which legitimately can take over a month to heal), but some them...

Again agree (but disagree again lol). He enjoys the limelight & loves to take the pressure shots for sure yet at the same time he prefers to defer leadership

That is precisely what I meant; he's as cool as the smoke off of dry ice in the clutch, one of his many very positive traits... but he's neither a vocal leader nor a guy who wants the media presure of being The Man.

I think expectations really are at the heart of the matter. The OP asks what did Vince Carter do ? Most critics see it as What Vince Carter didn't do. Expectations has killed him in the media. I read so many people saying he could easily have been MJ or better which I find laughable.

He had the physical traits for it (everything from body type to body control to leaping ability and quickness) and he turned himself into an outstanding shooter. He had everything but the mentality to be as good as anyone ever saw out of a wing player. He just didn't live up to his potential.

It's shouldn't be VC's fault or burden that he OVERACHIEVED early in his NBA Career

He did not overachieve at any point in his NBA career.

VC worked on these things & improved but no one gives him credit for that.

Yes they do; most people point to his jumper as the only time he ever put in any kind of off-season work on his game while playing for the Raptors, though it is fair to note that he improved his dribble-penetration strategies and skills while here and since leaving, he has become a very fine passer in Frank's offense (and just in general, I don't want to imply it's system-related).

I don't think it's that disappointing. His dunk in your face style has lessened due to decrease of athleticism (still high among NBA players) and also frankly because it is a style that increases one's chances of injures (impact of knee's/joints landing on the court over & over & over & also just the increase of physical contact when playing that way...see DWade).

I'm not disappointed that he's not a dunk-in-your-face guy; I'm disappointed he didn't develop his post game more effectively, because that skill gives Kobe Bryant 10 FTA/g in tandem with his dribble-driving ability and is a lot easier on the body than those forays to the rim. Jordan did it, too, it helped him maintain his DrawF as he got older.

I'm disappointed Vince hasn't become a craftier scorer and that he hasn't maintained around 8+ FTA/g, especially in the 04-05 and beyond no-handchecking era. I'm disappointed that he hasn't developed his game and been a dominant scorer, regardless of style. I like watching Vince, even now. I like it even when his only dunk in a game is a breakaway 360, all alone. He's got a beautiful game to watch, the problem is that he just doesn't apply himself sufficiently in order to be truly amazing at it. It's frustrating to see all that talent, to see what other guys do that he could easily emulate and just DOESN'T.

Vince is a great player... but he could have been an all-time great if he just cared about basketball more and worked on his game. If he didn't want to do the run-and-dunk thing, that's perfectly understandable... being able to walk after you retire is high on the list of things to be capable of doing, I understand that. But there are ground-bound guys who draw craploads of fouls without threatening to get much farther than 6" off the floor and he could do that, certainly he could do it better with his strength, jumper and hops (Jordan's turnaround fadeaway comes to mind, as long as he knew when and how to counter with the inside pivot and then the reverse pivot and the duck-in floater, etc).

[j3yuen]

if you've watched carter play in toronto back in his hayday... you wouldn't even have to ask this question.. just 3 years into the league he was already becoming one of the leagues best shooting guards.. forget the kobe MJ comparisons.. back in 2000, the VC MJ comparisons were all the rage because well he dunked better than MJ, had more athleticism than MJ, could shoot a fadeaway like MJ... carter just had crazy game and was unstoppable...

fast forward to 2008 and you'll be lucky if carter even gets compared to manu these days...

[tha_rock220]

Even if you watched Carter his first few seasons in Toronto, before the injury ruined his agression, you'd have seen a guy who wasn't playing to his potential. The guy had greater physical gifts than I've ever seen in a star 6-8 and under. Sadly, that might have been his undoing. He's spent his entire career basically being able to get by on that alone. He had so much elevation on his jumper that it was basically uncontestable, he worked to improve it early in his career, and he became an elite shooter. He should have been an 8-10 fta/g guy from his 2nd season to at least last season, but he never looked to attack the basket regularly(especially after that injury) and he never developed a post game so he never became an elite level scorer. Meaning he should have approached 30ppg(possibly surpassed) for at least 3 or 4 seasons. He also should have been a 7 rebound a game guy for several seasons as well.

Also, don't hold it against him for never being a top distributor. It was never his game. Guys like Kobe, T-Mac, and LeBron just had an instinctual ability to set up their teammates. VC never had that.

[tsherkin]

tha_rock, if you're talking about 99-00, you're wrong. His second season in the league was almost mythical in his ability; he did pretty much everything right that year except fade hard against physical defenses. He was aggressive as Hell all year long, and through most of 00-01 as well, into the playoffs. Those two years were his best and he was living up to his potential, moving towards it. He wasn't at even his physical prime, nevermind his player's prime, so you can't expect him to have magically been a 32-ppg monster those years. He did a brilliant job with a fairly unimpressive supporting cast in those years.

Remember too that prior to 04-05, the rules made it EXTREMELY hard to average more than 8 FTA/g as a wing. That's why the seasons T-Mac and Pierce posted at 9+ FTA/g were so impressive. Vince at about 7 FTA/g (6.7, 6.8) was still doing a very good job. At he DID approach 30 ppg; he posted 27.6 ppg in 00-01.

Moreover, he IS a very talented distributor; he's not a point forward but he's a 4-5 apg player and that's quite good.