Fact vs Opinion...Are the Magic full of "Chucking" PG's?

[Neon1]

Drives me insane the way everyone overstates and runs the "Chuckarroyo" and Jameer into the ground at EVERY chance they get implying that they are Ball Hogs that never pass and so on...If you were the type to just feed into or jump on every "i hate player "x" bandwagons" you would think that our PG's take as many shots as Kobe Bean...

Lets 1st take a look at athe list of PG's with the lowest scoring attempt to assist ratio's. *Tie Breakers determined by lower number of scoring attempts per48.

fga48+[fta48/2] = an attempt at scoring

Notes: 101 players were sampled and classified as point guards including the combo guard types (Iverson, B.Gordon, Monta Ellis, Barbosa, Crittenton, DaJuan Wagner etc).


The top 50 POINT GUARDS taking the least amount of shots before getting an assist

1.08 Ramon Sessions
1.09 Jason Kidd *
1.13 Jose Calderon
1.14 Jeff McInnis
1.17 Eric Snow (end top 5)
1.18 Brevin Knight
1.22 Steve Nash*
1.37 Anthony Carter
1.43 Anthony Johnson
1.46 Chris Duhon (end top 10)
1.53 Deron Williams* (ranked #11)
1.54 Earl Watson
1.55 Antonio Daniels
1.60 Chris Paul* (ranked #14)
1.63 Steve Blake
1.65 Jamaal Tinsley
1.67 Speedy Claxton
1.70 Darrall Armstrong
1.72 Luke Ridenour
1.72 Sebatian Telfair (end top 20)
1.75 Sergio Rodrigez
1.76 Jameer Nelson
1.79 Junior Harrington
1.83 Carlos Arroyo
1.85 Shaun Livingston (end top 25)
1.86 Travis Diener
1.87 T.J. Ford
1.92 Jason Willliams
1.93 Kirk Hinrich
1.97 Delonte West (end top 30)
1.97 Dan Dickau
1.99 Raymond Felton
2.02 Kevin Ollie
2.02 Rajon Rondo
2.03 Jacque Vaughn
2.06 Chauncy Billups*(ranked #36)
2.08 Lindsay Hunter
2.11 Earl Boykins
2.15 Mike Conley Jr.
2.16 Damon Stoudamire
2.24 Marcus Williams
2.24 Mike Bibby
2.28 Steve Francis
2.29 Rafer Alston
2.31 Acie Law
2.34 Andre Miller* (ranked #46)
2.35 Chris Quinn
2.37 Jason Hart
2.38 Orien Greene
2.38 Jarrett Jack (end top 50)


The bottom 51 POINT GUARDS taking the HIGHEST number of scoring attempts before getting an assist

7.32 Salim Stoudamire (ranked #101 of 101)
6.79 Quincy Douby (end bottom 100)
6.39 Shannon Brown
5.66 Ben Gordon* (ranked #98)
5.61 Javaris Crittenton
5.49 DaJuan Wagner
5.23 Mike James (end bottom 95)
5.00 Leandro Barbosa* (ranked #94)
4.74 Juan Carlos Navarro
4.59 Monta Ellis* (ranked #92)
4.27 Jason Terry* (ranked #91)
4.15 John Lucas III (end bottom 90)
4.17 Nate Robinson
3.94 Bobby Jackson
3.89 Keyon Dooling
3.78 Luthor Head
3.74 Smush Parker (end bottom 85)
3.69 Gilbert Arenas* (ranked #84)
3.67 Taurean Green
3.66 Eddie House
3.65 Derek Fisher
3.64 Jannero Parker (end bottom 80)
3.64 Tyron Lue
3.63 Darius Washington
3.60 Daniel Gibson
3.55 Louis Wiiliams
3.40 Marcus Banks (end bottom 75)
3.32 Allen Iverson* (ranked #74)
3.23 Jose Juan Barera
3.09 Gabe Pruitt
3.00 Damon Jones
2.99 Randy Foye (end bottom 70)
2.97 Jordan Farmar
2.96 Tony Parker* (ranked #68)
2.89 Aaron Brooks
2.87 Stephon Marbury* (ranked #66)
2.87 Rodney Stucky
2.85 Ronnie Price
2.82 Juan Dixon
2.80 Sam Cassell* (ranked #62)
2.78 Baron Davis* (ranked #61)
2.77 Beno Udrith (end bottom 60)
2.75 Royal Ivey
2.74 Andre Owens
2.69 C.J. Watson
2.59 Daniel Ewing
2.59 Chucky Atkins (end bottom 55)
2.52 Kyle Lowry
2.52 Charlie Bell
2.42 Devin Harris
2.41 Mo Wiiliams


The Magic actually had both Jameer AND Carlos inside the top 25 in terms of getting othe players baskets before going for thier own scoring attempts. And in all actuality these numbers support the people that say there are no players that actually look to create scoring opportunities for others more than themsselves. Only 10 players total (Sessions, Kidd, Calderon, McInnis, Snow, Knight, Nash, A.Carter, A.Johnson and Chris Duhon) didnt attempt to score at least a 2-1 margin.

8.9% of all PG's created less selfishly/capably than Anthony Johnson.
21.78% of all PG's created less selfishly/capably than Jameer Nelson
23.76% of all PG's created less selfishly/capably than Carlos Arroyo.
86.14% of all PG's created less selfishly/capably than Keyon Dooling.
96.04% of all PG's created less selfishly/capably than Javaris Crittenton.

Discuss.

[spinedoc]

Interesting, I agree about the misplaced hate for Jameer. The guy is a starting pg who gets a lot of minutes, but still doesn't get enough credit for his ability to look to get others involved. Often when he shoots, its because teams don't respect his shot and play off of him. He has to keep teams honest and take that open jumper. Carlos is a little different because he does come off the bench. When you don't start and come into the game late, most guys are looking to impress or do too much. So Carlos is still a marginal chucker in my book. JC gets even less time and is looking to get more minutes at this stage, so he jacks up a lot of shots because of that. Its the wrong way to go about getting more PT. I think that will change as he develops. But thats why Dooling always frustrated me, because he couldn't run the offense and took, not just a lot of shots, but poor ones. His defense was the only thing worthwhile in his game. And Francis, we can all agree that he's always been a selfish player, definitely a short two guard who felt the need to take over games all by himself. Some nights he was very successful, but took a lot of guys out of their game at the same time.

[craig01]

Nelson isn't a chucker. But he is not a breakdown the defense PG either.

Arroyo was somewhat, but that also was part of his role.

Francis.....who cares? lol

[maginno]

Nelson was definitely a chucker the year before Stan came. Stan making him compete for the job settled him down I think. I wouldn't label him a chucker now.

[drsd]

Nelson had about 50 games last year where he was a solid NBA PG. Johnson is a prototype sub at teh PG slot. Barring no injury misfourtunes, I feel confident in that lattoon. So, to add Crittenton to the #3 place of depth is not really a risk.

Young PGs ALWAYS struggle to distribute and often are poor at developing set plays. Not until an NBA PG hits year three does he have any chance to find a groove. There's still hoping the next three years for Crittenton to find an NBA-level of game. But today, Johnson is a much more needed asset for the Magic; I am THRILLEDDDDDDDD that the Magic picked him up.

As for Dooling, sometimes a combo-guard off of the bench is not asked to distribute. Dooling's games is not a starters game. But off of the bench, he was a good change up on offense.

[Neon1]

So Carlos is still a marginal chucker in my book. JC gets even less time and is looking to get more minutes at this stage, so he jacks up a lot of shots because of that.

Id agree with marginal...as long as you mean average. For his career hes a 2.43 scoring attempts before an assist which ranks him right around Devin Harris at the 50-52 mid point range. As far as THIS SEASON, theres no way he was shoot first with a rate that low. Carlos didnt take that many shots at all, the thing is that because of the shots he actually takes, quite a few are at strange times, almost as if he pre determined that he was going to get a shot up during that trip up the floor regardless of situation.

That combined with his shooting form (quick and fades to the side on all jumpers) makes the few he does take stand out in peoples minds more than average.

Its the wrong way to go about getting more PT. I think (re: crittenton)that will change as he develops. But thats why Dooling always frustrated me, because he couldn't run the offense and took, not just a lot of shots, but poor ones. His defense was the only thing worthwhile in his game.

Yeah Crittenton's number is insanely high, it would come down naturally with a more stable role playing PG with non garbage time teamates, but i wouldnt expect miracles hes a scoring point by nature (nothing wrong with that imo) by nature of playing with teamates better than himself and not having 3-5 minutes only to make a statement, anyone would be inclined to take less shots.

[Neon1]

Nelson was definitely a chucker the year before Stan came. Stan making him compete for the job settled him down I think. I wouldn't label him a chucker now.

Its funny actually if you think back...During Steves last half season here Brian Hill basically had him stop trying to score much the same way Nelson was this season...Nelson on the other hand was given the absolute green light off the bench the same way Keyon had this year. Hell there was that stretch that Jameer was lighting up for 20-22 a game in reserve for a stretch while Francis was taking like 7-8 shots a game..lol

[LBPTarHeel27]

The argument isn't that Jameer is a chucker anymore. He has gotten past that and become a better PG overall...BUT...he is still not a pure PG and it shows. He is also a liability on defense. That is why people still give Jameer hell at times. He is a solid starting PG, but nothing more. He does the trick for now, but unless we have some extra pieces around...this lineup+Jameer as starting PG will not win an NBA title. (Barring breakouts from Lee or Pietrus of course)

[whocares]

1. what about the number of turnovers before making an assist?

[magicfanatic23]

I used to hate Jameer just b/c I thought he would shoot the ball too much. The last year Brian Hill was here, Jameer always would dribble the clock down and shoot the final shot. It used to drive me insane. But now I think SVG is making him into a real NBA pg and Jameer is doing a better job. He still isn't my favorite PG in the league but I definitely don't hate him anymore.

[Neon1]

1. what about the number of turnovers before making an assist?

Thats pretty common knowledge and easily attainable, just look at a/to ratio on players stat cards on espn or nba.com. Arroyo is always very high up top that category most years also.

assist per turnover:
Johnson 3.11 #12
Arroyo 2.84 #22
Nelson 2.72 #25
Dooling 2.18 #58
Crittenton 0.91 #87

Top 10:
5.38 Calderon
4.62 Knight
4.60 Paul
4.56 Diener
3.74 Daniels
3.70 Duhon
3.65 Blake
3.37 Williams
3.31 Billups
3.20 Telfair

[whocares]

1. these are all good but never tell the whole picture.
2. ideally, a player should be evaluated on the ratio of success when that player is "decisive".
3. a player is decisive when he shoots the ball (either hit or miss), turns the ball over, makes an assist, passes the ball with less than 3 seconds on the shot clock or the other team fouls him.
4. give completely subjective points to each category.
5. for instance, hitting a shot - 2/3 points, missing a shot - -2 points, turning the ball - -2points, assis - 2/3 points, passes the ball with less than 3 second - -1point, other team fouing him - 1point.
6. then, of all the times the player was decisive, take the average.
7. the importance of a player is reflected on the number of times he is decisive during a game.
8. call this metric, buttmetric.
9. there you go.

[mhectorgato]

I used to hate Jameer just b/c I thought he would shoot the ball too much. The last year Brian Hill was here, Jameer always would dribble the clock down and shoot the final shot. It used to drive me insane. But now I think SVG is making him into a real NBA pg and Jameer is doing a better job. He still isn't my favorite PG in the league but I definitely don't hate him anymore.

Except that our offense was based on isos. Many players did that during Hill's tenure.

He came in talking about running the Princeton, but quickly abandoned early in the season in favor of a very simplified offense.

[CPBalla2003 n da 863]

SVG has changed Nelson game, so hes not chucker anymore... i did not Crittenton was so high, but then again, i dont know how many minutes he gets a game....

[Cosmic_Backlash]

Crittenton for last years purposes played 2 guard, you can't expect him to have a good assist/chuck ratio. He played with Conley and Lowry, he was never the point guard and never asked to play point guard duties with them. He played very limited minutes with the Lakers really, almost all of his time came with the grizz.

[Neon1]

Crittenton for last years purposes played 2 guard, you can't expect him to have a good assist/chuck ratio. He played with Conley and Lowry, he was never the point guard and never asked to play point guard duties with them. He played very limited minutes with the Lakers really, almost all of his time came with the grizz.

Its high even for a SG. Im not trying to downgrade the kid, im just trying to remove bias (the fact that i and most everyone wants him here, thus will try to rationalize his faults) out of it all. He really should be better regardless of position because he is supposed to have big time point guard potential.

J.R. Smith has a 5.95
Kobe has a 4.70
DaJuan Wagner 5.49
Ben Gordon 5.66
Barbosa has a 5.00

Its just a primer incase we do get him, that way people have a better grip on the fact that he needs lots of time and patience to develop if he is to be a PG. Which really is his only chance because hes likely too small (6'3" - 6'4.25" In shoes, 195 pounds)to be a big time SG.

Basically be patient give the kid a chance to develop, and keep expectaions reasonable, hes only 20.

[spinedoc]

Id agree with marginal...as long as you mean average. For his career hes a 2.43 scoring attempts before an assist which ranks him right around Devin Harris at the 50-52 mid point range. As far as THIS SEASON, theres no way he was shoot first with a rate that low. Carlos didnt take that many shots at all, the thing is that because of the shots he actually takes, quite a few are at strange times, almost as if he pre determined that he was going to get a shot up during that trip up the floor regardless of situation.

That combined with his shooting form (quick and fades to the side on all jumpers) makes the few he does take stand out in peoples minds more than average.

I do, but he gets less slack because of his role. A backup pg should measure their expectations to minimizing mistakes and keeping the game close. Theoretically, its the starters that should be creating the lead, and the backups that manage it. That means limiting turnovers, working the shot clock and decreasing the amount of possessions, and not creating fast break opportunities for the other team. Carlos would commit from the get go, I agree with you, he would force himself into positions that he couldn't retreat from. When he was on it was a different story, but that wasn't the norm. That fade away shot early in the shot clock without any guys around the basket to rebound was horrible. Thats why I like AJ. He's a pretty smart guy, not a lot of skills, but the guy knows his role and works it well. Plus he's a big guy that won't get man handled. I really want JC here, but its not the end of the world if we don't get him. There are other guys that can perform well as a third stringer for this team. Ideally though I'd like to get a guy like JC that can develop and rival Jameer in the future. I didn't want to go out and get a guy that was clearly better than Nelson at this point because we have/had other needs. This way we still have a solid starting pg, but have something to look forward to in the future as well. After that slot is filled, its time to look for Dwight's long term complement up front and we are set imo.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

^ Good post Doc!
I also like that it is another friend/previous teamate that will ensure our superstars ameniable nature!

Plus like you said when if he can surpass Jameer it will probably be around the time that Meer's contract is up.

[magicfanatic23]

I used to hate Jameer just b/c I thought he would shoot the ball too much. The last year Brian Hill was here, Jameer always would dribble the clock down and shoot the final shot. It used to drive me insane. But now I think SVG is making him into a real NBA pg and Jameer is doing a better job. He still isn't my favorite PG in the league but I definitely don't hate him anymore.

Except that our offense was based on isos. Many players did that during Hill's tenure.

He came in talking about running the Princeton, but quickly abandoned early in the season in favor of a very simplified offense.

Well that explains why we were an average team at best under B Hill. If your are relying on a player like Jameer to run isos, then you are in serious trouble. I don't know how you can coach in the NBA with such a terrible offensive game plan.

[N4U|Redux]

The above stats doesn't provide any sort of insight as to whether 'Meer is a good PG though.

All this says is that Jameer apparently is mediocre at this comparison. And, while it proves he isn't necessarily a "chucker" it certainly does not indicate that he is a GOOD PASSER of any sort. All he'd have to do is shoot less while keeping the same assist total in order to go higher on this list (and that wouldn't make him a better passer); clearly that wouldn't make him a better PG as it is.

There are guys on that list that are both better passers and bigger chuckers; yet, at the same time much better passing PG's.

Nelson is mediocre. That's all I've seen proven here.