Cavs/Wolves trade

[LBusiness]

Miller/Cards/ for Joe Smith/Wally 2009 2nd 2010 1rst

Would McHale do this.


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Cleveland Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: 0.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, and 0.0 apg.
Incoming Players
Brian Cardinal
6-8 SF / PF from Purdue
No games yet played in 2007/08
Mike Miller
6-8 SG from Florida
No games yet played in 2007/08
Outgoing Players
Joe Smith
6-10 PF from Maryland
No games yet played in 2007/08
Wally Szczerbiak
6-7 SF / SG from Miami-OH
No games yet played in 2007/08

[andyhop]

I don't think it would be considered seriously no.

From everything that has been said Miller is seen as an imporant piece for now and the future and not as someone they would move to dump a bit of salary and as we could well have 3 1sts next year another one isn't a massive incentive anyway.

[Tirion]

that would be a nightmare.
broken knees wally AND average joe "gimme all your 1sts" smith?
no thanks.

[theGreatRC]

that would be a nightmare.
broken knees wally AND average joe "gimme all your 1sts" smith?
no thanks.

I'm really cringing just thinking about those players coming back. Joe is still serviceable, but just the history of it all with these two players that I never liked makes me

[Krapinsky]

I honestly don't think i could come up with 5 other trades that mchale would rather NOT do. THis is almost like a rude joke. It's too bad you couldn't find some way to make it a three way deal and get us either Mike James or Ricky Davis as well.

[4ho5ive]

Double post

[4ho5ive]

This is beyond horrible. Everyone just assumes that McHale will take crap on top of crap for very good players.

Counter offer: Collins/Cardinal/McCants/rights to switch 2nd round pick in 09 for Lebron James.

that would be a nightmare.
broken knees wally AND average joe "gimme all your 1sts" smith?
no thanks.

[shrink]

I think Mike Miller won't be traded because the South Dakota native wants to be here, can provide a little veteran leadership, and is a flexible player that can play two positions and even come off the bench -- a flexibility we'll need as some of our young players prosper while others fail.

McCants might work instead -- he may even be a starter for you, particularly if Gibson is looking like he'll be playing a ton of PG. Having McCants reduces the leverage Delonte West has on his contract demands. If I was trying to put a deal together that minimized the loss in talent for a win-now CLE team aching for a play-off run in 2009.

I might try simultaneous deals of:

Cardinal for Snow
McCants for Hickson and Allred

[Mcfale313]

those 2 players would never ever gonna return to wolves roster, wally's loved by the fans but ever since KG's gone he's not really gonna have a major impact coming bac in terms of boosting the ticket sale, Joe "wolves never gonna have 1st round picks" smith......his name explained everything

I'd do miller+cardinal+ 10 future 1st round picks + cash consideration for Lebron any day tho,

[GeorgiaWolf]

This has to be a troll to even consider this trade...

[stop-n-pop]

We'll have a post on it up at Canis later today, but our version is a post-August 26th trade of

Cardinal + Foye (or McCants...both have similar salaries next year) for Eric Snow.

Foye/McCants + Cardinal gives the Wolves a window of 7-11 mil for an expiring contract. By clearing Foye/McCants + Cardinal from the books, they end up with around $46 mil on the books for the 2009 free agency season. The benefit of waiting until the 26th is that a) Cardinal can't be moved until 2 months after his trade to the Wolves, and b) the Wolves should have a very clear idea who is going to be available in next year's free agency market. Maybe Josh Smith and Deng will sign 1 year tenders. If so, you could have a market with limited players (Portland and Memphis being the 2 big opponents) and guys like Smith, Deng, M. Williams, Hedo, Boozer, and Granger on the open market.

If the Wolves pull a trade, it should be to move Cardinal's deal for an expiring contract because they're just going to get lost in the shuffle in 2010...especially if Smith and Deng end up playing out 1 year deals. Then they can throw a max at either guy. Plus, by settling the Foye/Shaddy business, the team can move forward with a more manageable roster. They'll need to squeak by at the point, but they were going to do that anyway...especially when Bassy ends up getting the most minutes at the spot late in the year. I'd love to see the Wolves end up getting rid of either Foye or McCants (I'm a Shaddy guy so my vote is for Foye) and moving on the best 3 available in free agency while moving all their draft picks for the best combo/point/off-guard they can get in next year's draft: Evans, Jennings, Calathes, Curry, or Derozan. They can then use the rest of their cap space to sign Pekovic entering the 2010 season. In the mean time, they play the 2/3 like this:

2- Miller (15), McCants (25), Brewer (8)
3- Gomes (20), Miller (15), Brewer (13)

And the 1 like this:

Bassy (30), Snow (18) with Shaddy picking up the remaining slack when Snow can't go.

[Krapinsky]

We'll have a post on it up at Canis later today, but our version is a post-August 26th trade of

Cardinal + Foye (or McCants...both have similar salaries next year) for Eric Snow.

Foye/McCants + Cardinal gives the Wolves a window of 7-11 mil for an expiring contract. By clearing Foye/McCants + Cardinal from the books, they end up with around $46 mil on the books for the 2009 free agency season. The benefit of waiting until the 26th is that a) Cardinal can't be moved until 2 months after his trade to the Wolves, and b) the Wolves should have a very clear idea who is going to be available in next year's free agency market. Maybe Josh Smith and Deng will sign 1 year tenders. If so, you could have a market with limited players (Portland and Memphis being the 2 big opponents) and guys like Smith, Deng, M. Williams, Hedo, Boozer, and Granger on the open market.

If the Wolves pull a trade, it should be to move Cardinal's deal for an expiring contract because they're just going to get lost in the shuffle in 2010...especially if Smith and Deng end up playing out 1 year deals. Then they can throw a max at either guy. Plus, by settling the Foye/Shaddy business, the team can move forward with a more manageable roster. They'll need to squeak by at the point, but they were going to do that anyway...especially when Bassy ends up getting the most minutes at the spot late in the year. I'd love to see the Wolves end up getting rid of either Foye or McCants (I'm a Shaddy guy so my vote is for Foye) and moving on the best 3 available in free agency while moving all their draft picks for the best combo/point/off-guard they can get in next year's draft: Evans, Jennings, Calathes, Curry, or Derozan. They can then use the rest of their cap space to sign Pekovic entering the 2010 season. In the mean time, they play the 2/3 like this:

2- Miller (15), McCants (25), Brewer (8)
3- Gomes (20), Miller (15), Brewer (13)

And the 1 like this:

Bassy (30), Snow (18) with Shaddy picking up the remaining slack when Snow can't go.

You obviously know nothing about our team.

GO AWAY.

[shrink]

We'll have a post on it up at Canis later today, but our version is a post-August 26th trade of

Cardinal + Foye (or McCants...both have similar salaries next year) for Eric Snow.

Now I'm as big a fan of saving money as anybody, so I applaud looking at Eric Snow. With CLE in a win-now situation, having the Cavs devote $7 mil to a guy that can barely play is not an effective use of their resources.

I'm going to dismiss using Randy Foye right away, because even before we consider value, our needs at PG are just too extreme to deal Foye. Word from CLE is that Eric Snow is barely functional, and he could not step in and play meaningful minutes. I like him as a third PG though, providing more coaching than playing for our young team. In a recent survey, guys in the NBA were asked which current player was most likely to become a head coach, and Eric Snow was the most-named player. He always brought defensive effort, and I think that's something the Wolves can use. I would love to see him transitioned from a player to an assistant coach. In any event, MIN can't afford to lose Foye .. any injury to Telfair or Snow (likely), would decimate the team.

So for me, that leaves me to consider McCants + Cardinal for Snow. I think that's a deal that I would have been more excited about last season, with Hudson and Juwon Howard coming off the books. However, I think trading the expiring contracts of Walker and Buckner ($13 mil) and taking back the expiring deal of Collins ($6), while cutting a year off Jaric demonstrates we're looking at 2010 Free Agency more than 2009. I agree that 2010 is going to be competitive, but because so many teams are gearing contracts for it, there will be a lot of free agents available as well.

Therefore, I would not do a Cardinal + McCants for Snow deal unless MIN was getting some value back besides cap relief. CLE, in a full "Win now" mode, shouldn't squawk too much if it becomes an issue of trading away someone who would contribute in two years, versus getting a player that would help LeBron right now in McCants. McCants upside alone should justify some sort of plus. I tossed Hickson and Allred in to provide value but also so the deal could be done immediately as a simultaneous trade, with no two-month waiting period for combining Cardinal. Using Allred (or Thomas) are both non-guaranteed, but almost impossible to match without using Hickson.

The only other possibility for a trade right now would be to combine McCants and Madsen. At $5.25 mil, we could take back packages from CLE in a range of $4.12-$6.66. If you wanted to go full-out on 2009 cap relief, getting Madsen off the books too (but I like Madsen), CLE could choose any of the following expiring deals to complete the transaction: Damon Jones, Sasha Pavlovic or Joe Smith. Varejao also fits in that range.

I like my original deal:

Cardinal for Snow
McCants for JJ Hickson + Allred/Thomas (unguaranteed)

or

Cardinal for Snow (expiring)
McCants + Madsen for Damon Jones (expiring)

[karch34]

Wow. Stop-n-pop's trade is so bad that it actually makes LBusiness' look fantastic.

[shrink]

It just dawned on me that I believe CLE would need to wait until August 14th before Hickson could be traded.

[Worm Guts]

We'll have a post on it up at Canis later today, but our version is a post-August 26th trade of

Cardinal + Foye (or McCants...both have similar salaries next year) for Eric Snow.

Foye/McCants + Cardinal gives the Wolves a window of 7-11 mil for an expiring contract. By clearing Foye/McCants + Cardinal from the books, they end up with around $46 mil on the books for the 2009 free agency season. The benefit of waiting until the 26th is that a) Cardinal can't be moved until 2 months after his trade to the Wolves, and b) the Wolves should have a very clear idea who is going to be available in next year's free agency market. Maybe Josh Smith and Deng will sign 1 year tenders. If so, you could have a market with limited players (Portland and Memphis being the 2 big opponents) and guys like Smith, Deng, M. Williams, Hedo, Boozer, and Granger on the open market.

If the Wolves pull a trade, it should be to move Cardinal's deal for an expiring contract because they're just going to get lost in the shuffle in 2010...especially if Smith and Deng end up playing out 1 year deals. Then they can throw a max at either guy. Plus, by settling the Foye/Shaddy business, the team can move forward with a more manageable roster. They'll need to squeak by at the point, but they were going to do that anyway...especially when Bassy ends up getting the most minutes at the spot late in the year. I'd love to see the Wolves end up getting rid of either Foye or McCants (I'm a Shaddy guy so my vote is for Foye) and moving on the best 3 available in free agency while moving all their draft picks for the best combo/point/off-guard they can get in next year's draft: Evans, Jennings, Calathes, Curry, or Derozan. They can then use the rest of their cap space to sign Pekovic entering the 2010 season. In the mean time, they play the 2/3 like this:

2- Miller (15), McCants (25), Brewer (8)
3- Gomes (20), Miller (15), Brewer (13)

And the 1 like this:

Bassy (30), Snow (18) with Shaddy picking up the remaining slack when Snow can't go.

You obviously know nothing about our team.

GO AWAY.

Be nice. I wouldn't do the trade, but I think it's an interesting take. The guy obviously put some effort in.

[shrink]

OK, here's some serious "outside the box" thinking

CLE GIVES: Snow
CLE GETS: Cardinal

UTA GIVES: Jaron Collins
UTA GETS: Lance Allred (unguaranteed) + Billy Thomas (unguaranteed)

CLE GIVES: Lance Allred (unguaranteed) + Billy Thomas (unguaranteed)
CLE GETS: Jarron Collins

CLE GIVES: Jarron Collins
CLE GETS: McCants

MIN GIVES: McCants
MIN GETS: Jaron Collins (exp)

MIN GIVES: 2009 2nd round pick, Top 59 protected
UTA GIVES: 2009 2nd round pick, Top 59 protected, Ease restrictions on already traded UTA pick to "Top 10 protected"

These deals need to be done individually to meet CBA guidelines, but they end up as:

CLE GIVES: Snow + Lance Allred (unguaranteed) + Billy Thomas (unguaranteed)
CLE GETS: McCants + Cardinal

UTA GIVES: Jaron Collins + reduction on UTA 1st
UTA GETS: Lance Allred (unguaranteed) + Billy Thomas (unguaranteed)

MIN GIVES: McCants + Cardinal
MIN GETS: Snow (expiring) + Collins (expiring) + UTA pick becomes "Top 10 protected"


WHY FOR CLE: Its only money! CLE adds the SG scorer they need, and removes some of Delonte West's leverage, since McCants can play PG and Gibson can play more PG. CLE removes almost nothing from their production as they try for a ring. Trading the two unguarantees brings back a contract that's just big enough to match McCants.

WHY FOR UTA: Collins averaged 10 mpg in the season, and 4 MPG in the play-offs. By waiving Allred and Thomas, they save $2 mil and have a little more room to work with financially this year. How much is $2 mil worth in easing the protections on the UTA pick that's already been traded? Go to Top 10 protected?

WHY FOR MIN: Already mentioned, but it provides expirings for a 2009 free agent run. It may increase the value of the UTA pick in the tough West. It also gets the Wolves some national PR by reuniting the twins.

EDIT: I double-checked my numbers, and this deal does not work .. the CLE-to-UTA bit is $0.05 mil to low! I tried to envision doing it with a TPE-assist, but the TPE's aren't big enough to help.

[stop-n-pop]

Don't worry about it. If I actually cared what something named Dr. Krapinsky wrote, I'd respond. I think we do just fine at Hoopus and if he wants to start up Dr. Krapinsky's Wolves Blog and see how many responses he gets on his own, so be it. Maybe I'll respond there.

The Cavs have nearly $30 mil in expiring deals this year. They may have more depending on what happens with Z and Sideshow Bob. Their #1 goal is to clear cap space in 2010 to keep the services of Mr. James. Right now their young core consists of Booby Gibson and (maybe) Hickson. They don't have a real backcourt partner for Gibson and the rest of their team is simply awful. Cardinal for Snow works because Snow has zero left in the tank, he has a slightly larger contract than Cardinal and the 2009 cap hit they would take for Cardinal would be smaller than the Snow hit they take this year as well as coming after they clear out all of the other dead weight.

They need young players and Foye or McCants would be nice compliments to their backcourt. Both can hit from range and provide help with the ball for guys like Gibson or (if they keep him) West. Also, the Cavs are going to do their very best to move Wally's ridiculous deal this year for a functional player in order to keep Lebron happy. I doubt it will be an expiring deal for an expiring deal. It's likely to be some guy with 2-3 years left on his contract who will not help their cap situation in 2010. They're caught between needing to win now to make Lebron happy and clearing enough space to allow him to stay. Cardinal + Foye/McCants allows something like this to happen. They get a nice young player that would start for them (both would...the Cavs have no backcourt help) as well as a deal that could transfer 2009 expiring money into 2010. The Cavs aren't going to give up Hickson anymore than they are going to give up Snow for Cardinal straight up. There's no sense in overvaluing the Wolves' assets. They have a roughly duplicate set of players in Shaddy and Foye and they both have about $3.5 mil in 2009 cap space. Whoever provides more value to Cleveland would probably be enough for the Cavs to make this move.

In return, the Wolves finally settle the Foye/Shaddy Death Match, they admit what everybody else already knows (Foye isn't the PG of the future), and they have a more managable roster in 2008 at the 2/3. Yes, they'd be giving Foye or Shaddy away for no player in return, but they'd see over $10 mil of the cap for the 2009 free agency season, which will be considerably less crowded, competetive, and as cut throat as the free-for-all that is going to happen in 2010.

[shrink]

You obviously know nothing about our team.

GO AWAY.

Be nice. I wouldn't do the trade, but I think it's an interesting take. The guy obviously put some effort in.

Don't worry about it. If I actually cared what something named Dr. Krapinsky wrote, I'd respond. I think we do just fine at Hoopus and if he wants to start up Dr. Krapinsky's Wolves Blog and see how many responses he gets on his own, so be it. Maybe I'll respond there.

You guys need to check the oil on your "recognizing sarcasm" tank.

"Obviously" a post of that effort and depth shows pop knows the team.

I thought Dr. K's post was amusing

[4ho5ive]

Im dumbfounded that someone would try to use Foye as a salary dump to get Eric Snow. McCants maybe, MAYBE. You must really think the world of Foye to use him as a throw in to get Snow. I cant believe I read that right now.