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Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich)

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Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#1 » by WCDYNASTY » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:06 pm

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Bulls motivated to make a trade
Posted: Friday August 01, 2008 06:49AM ET

According to a league source, the Bulls have interest in Brad Miller (and many others) and are shopping forward Andres Nocioni (four years, $29 million left with team option for the 2012-13 at $7.5 million) and point guard Kirk Hinrich (five seasons left for combined $44.5 million). They appear very motivated to do a deal of some kind now that the Luol Deng situation has been resolved.


SOURCE:
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/archives/014245.html
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#2 » by dockingsched » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:07 pm

zero chance lakers take on those contracts. should be obvious by now.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#3 » by WCDYNASTY » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:13 pm

dcash4 wrote:zero chance lakers take on those contracts. should be obvious by now.



You never know, they could easily come this way in a trade for Odom.

C - Andrew Bynum
F - Pau Gasol
F - Andres Nocioni
G - Kobe Bryant
G - Kirk Hinrich
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#4 » by hermes » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:13 pm

mitch is on vacation, probably no reception in whatever magical land he's gone off to
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#5 » by WCDYNASTY » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:15 pm

hermes wrote:mitch is on vacation, probably no reception in whatever magical land he's gone off to


Very true :lol:
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#6 » by monk302 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:39 pm

Too much $$$$$.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#7 » by YiYaoYue » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:41 pm

monk302 wrote:Too much $$$$$.

only too much money if you don't include other players.


again... chicago is using gooden as one year rental as long as they take walton or vlad then this deal can work... although we might lose ariza and/or farmar to make it worth it for chicago. We can use gooden and expiring to free salary for bynum.

10 mil hindrich
8 mil noicioni
(both front loaded so salary drops over the years)
7.5 mil Gooden as expiring (one year rental to them)
25.5 mil TOTAL
maybe simmons included also (depending on his prospect)
27 mil TOTAL

14 mil Odom
6 mil Vlad or 4.5 mil walton
2.5 mil mihm expiring
3 mil Ariza
picks?
25.5 mil w/ vlad and 24 mil w/ walton TOTAL

next year both hindrich and noicioni free up a few mil approx 1-2 mil as salaries drop due to front loaded salary. 7.5 mil free from gooden (if we get simmons also free 2 mil) the 3 mil Bynum currently takes up and you have approximately 14-15 mil freed next year to resign Bynum at 10-11 mil and farmar to 4-5 mil and having 1-2 mil higher over cap next year probably won't be big deal for Buss. In terms of talent we getting a great deal, issue is chicago probably won't go for it without farmar included which gives lakers no problem resigning bynum, but lakers lose youth (not so much bench outside losing ariza since lakers still have fisher).


Now if we don't do anything.
next year:
Ariza at 4 mil
Farmar at 5 mil
Bynum at 10-11 mil
Odom at 12 mil (salary cut assumed)
- 2.5 mil from mihm lost
that's over 20 mil higher than this year... i don't think Buss will be willing to pay that much more.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#8 » by daddyfivestar » Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:18 pm

throwing out a three way on the trade thread
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#9 » by Kilroy » Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:29 pm

Odom, Radman, Farmar for Hin/Noc... http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4745305

Works in trade checker...

At this point, I really don't think we're going to make any big moves... But I don't think the money argument is as strong as you might think...

We have to re-up Odom, and Farmar is going to want an extension soon and we still have to pay Radman... It might actually make some sense to pull the trigger. Plus it adresses our issues pretty well...

Now if we think we can get Odom to resign with us on the cheap, then it's probably a silly move... But I just don't know how realistic that is.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#10 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:30 pm

dcash4 wrote:zero chance lakers take on those contracts. should be obvious by now.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#11 » by dockingsched » Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:47 pm

WCDYNASTY wrote:
dcash4 wrote:zero chance lakers take on those contracts. should be obvious by now.



You never know, they could easily come this way in a trade for Odom.

C - Andrew Bynum
F - Pau Gasol
F - Andres Nocioni
G - Kobe Bryant
G - Kirk Hinrich


a 65 million starting lineup all on long term deals that doesn't even count radman, walton, sasha, and any other player the lakers need to fill the roster. dr. buss has a limit and he will not cross that limit. its the same thing that happened back in 2000 when phil wanted pippen and dr. buss said he simply can't afford him.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#12 » by Asianiac_24 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:08 pm

Id say a Hinrich and Gooden for Odom is a good deal for both teams
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#13 » by crazyeights » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:24 pm

Then who starts at SF? Does Kobe rotate down to the 3? Does Hinrich play SG? Because the entire point of this seems to be for Nocioni to replace Odom at small forward...or at least the most pertinent point anyway.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#14 » by chefy » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:34 pm

Asianiac_24 wrote:Id say a Hinrich and Gooden for Odom is a good deal for both teams



then we send gooden to rockets for batier
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#15 » by Dalakerbox » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:40 pm

You never know, they could easily come this way in a trade for Odom.

C - Andrew Bynum
F - Pau Gasol
F - Andres Nocioni
G - Kobe Bryant
G - Kirk Hinrich

more dumb a$$ trades for Odom huh. What ever happened to team chemistry? You ever wonder why the Spurs and Detroit are always an elite team, they don't listen to suggestions like this and they keep their core together.

Thank about it

would you really want Andres over Lamar? If so thank you for not being our GM
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#16 » by Asianiac_24 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:40 pm

crazyeights wrote:Then who starts at SF? Does Kobe rotate down to the 3? Does Hinrich play SG? Because the entire point of this seems to be for Nocioni to replace Odom at small forward...or at least the most pertinent point anyway.


well you can certainly do that. and yes Hinrich can play SG. we can either have a lineup of:
Fish-Hinrich-Kobe-Gasol-Bynum
or
Hinrich-Kobe-Ariza-Gasol-Bynum
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#17 » by milesfides » Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:22 pm

Yeah, exactly, the luxury tax is prohibitive.

That being said, I can entertain certain scenarios because the Lakers will have to pay SOME luxury tax. They can't avoid it entirely, at least not in the near future. This depends on how much the Lakers are willing to go over the luxury tax, but I think this deal makes sense:

Odom
Radmanovic
Farmar

Hinrich
Nocioni

The Bulls have to eat something, in this case, Radmanovic's contract, for the Lakers to even consider a deal at all.

But Farmar also has to be included, to sweeten the deal for Chicago, getting a young talented PG to back up Rose, on a rookie contract. For us, Farmar wouldn't get the minutes battling Fish for minutes behind Hinrich. Moreover, he's up for an extension in about a year, so unloading him precludes the addition of his salary and tax on our payroll.

Now, let's look at the numbers:

1. In year one, those three cost us around 21m.
Trading for Hinrich and Nocioni (18m) saves us 3m + 3m in luxury tax this season, so 6m savings total.

2. Next year, there's several scenarios a) Odom at a discount b) Odom expires, team instead uses MLE to replace him c) Odom expires, team does nothing

a) Let's say the Lakers extend Odom for around 10m (or sign and trade him), which is fairly conservative. 10m + 6.5 (Radamn) + 2 (Farmar) = 18.5m.
b) MLE signing: 6m + 6.5 (Radamn) + 2 (Farmar) = 14.5m.
c) zero, nothing. 0m + 6.5 + 2 = 8.5m.

On the other hand, it's 17m for Kirk and Andres, due to their declining salaries, which yields

a) savings of 1.5m plus the tax, so 3m total.
b) deficit of 2.5m so 5m total.
c) deficit of 8.5m so 17m total.

3. In year three, things get a little more complicated due to Farmar's extension, but I'll estimate it as the MLE = 6m. Following the 3 scenarios above:

a) 10m (Odom) + 7m (Radman) + 6m (Farmar) = 23m
b) 6m (MLE) + 7m + 6m = 19m
c) 0m + 7m + 6m = 13m

On the other hand: 16m for Kirk and Andres, again, declining salaries.

Here are the differences:

a) savings of 7m plus the tax = 14m
b) savings of 3m plus the tax = 6m
c) deficit of 3m plus the tax = 6m


Breakdown:

Taking all three years, in comparison to the salaries of Hinrich and Nocioni

a) Extending Odom (or similar) for 10m yields a savings of: 6m + 3m +14m = 23m
b) Replacing him with an MLE player instead yields a savings of: 6m - 5m + 6m = 7m
c) Letting him expire for nothing yields a deficit of: 6m - 17m - 6m = -17m


In short, trading for Kirk and Nocioni only makes sense under these conditions and these assumptions. First of all, Chicago must agree to take back Radmanovic, they can't wipe the slate completely clean. Second, the Lakers' willingness depends on just how firmly they're committed to minimizing the luxury tax.

Bottom line, if the Lakers want to wipe Odom's contract off, but are WILLING to assume at least an MLE-type addition and also extend a reasonable deal to Farmar, then this deal is a great one. The Lakers come out ahead both financially and basketball-wise (they can't get a better PG and SF, not without breaking up their core or pushing the luxury tax).

But if the Lakers want to minimize the luxury tax at ALL COSTS, then Odom fans will have their hearts broken, our team will lose talent, we will have certain holes, etc., and we'd better get used to not seeing new faces, and get used to losing old ones.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#18 » by daddyfivestar » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:27 pm

CHI/SAC/Lakers: Combining Rumors

Chicago gets Brad Miller, Odom, Farmar
gives Gooden, Nocioni, Hinrich

Kings get Nocioni
give Miller

Lakers get Hinrich, Gooden
give Odom, Farmar

CHI saves long term money, gets a true backup point for DRose, Odom & Miller front line gives them better win now potential than Noah & Gooden, Deng's contract makes Nocioni obsolete, with Odom and Thabo getting SF minutes.

SAC saves 8.2 million over the next 2 years in contract reduction from Miller to Nocioni. Noci moves into SF starter slot while they groom Donte Green who is only 20. Year 5 is team option so he is movable expiring in 3 yrs probably when Green is ready. Garcia is a nice backup and can be packaged for value if need be.

LAL upgrades backcourt for title run now and over next three years. Gooden will replace Odoms rebounding and is a better suited PF off the bench than Odom. Assuming Odom walks for nothing LA can let Gooden walk too, or offer him an MLE level deal next year - much more affordable than Odom would ever be. Farmar is pending an extension after next year so paying Hinrich's declining contract is not too much of a financial increase.

edit - and full reigns of the SF are handed to Ariza, with Vlad as the backup.

edit2 - wow. looked at the #s for next 3 yrs on a deal like this... 82mil this year DO-ABLE, 86 the next with Ariza on a Sasha like deal, with Bynum 11mil, and only 9 players DOUBTFUL, and 86 the next for only 8 players.....OUCH not gonna happen.

Then again, if two titles were in hand, Buss may be inclined???

miles - do love the idea of moving Radman out, just don't know if it's possible until he is closer to expiring.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#19 » by lakeshow248 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:05 pm

Bulls are looking for a true veterean centre and Lakers trading for Nocioni and his deal like 7.5 a yrs for 4 yrs is uber unlikley unless the Bulls would like Vlad in return. They are basically the same player except Nocioni got more of a dribble drive game and Vlad shoots the three better.

As far as Hinrich goes I think Farmar can produce just as much as this guy given same minutes and a starting role. And the big factor is money J far will make like 2 mill and Hinrich like 9 mill and the Lakers' mangement are not adding salary in anyway.

Only thing I would dig would be acquring Gooden for something he is a good back up and his contract expires next yrs but I don't think Lakers have anything to get him str8 up. No need in trading Lamar if they are not getting an equal talent, let alone more soft players that can't play D and have big contracts down the line.

Lamar will be gone during this season or will just walk--the writting is on the wall, Bynum is getting re-uped and the Lakers will save 14.5 on Lamar nxt yrs and then the Lakers will most likely look to a MLE to fill the SF postion nxt yrs. Unless they can trade Lamar this yrs for a cheap starting SF and a back up PF/C and a exp contract.....

Something like Battier and Landry and filler for Lamar......would be ideal but Houston might not want to deal w/ the Lakers', however the exp contract of Lamar giving them more flex to re-sign Ron Artest would be intriguing.
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Re: Bulls motivated to make a trade (Nocioni & Hinrich) 

Post#20 » by TommyTheCat » Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:56 pm

milesfides wrote:Yeah, exactly, the luxury tax is prohibitive.

That being said, I can entertain certain scenarios because the Lakers will have to pay SOME luxury tax. They can't avoid it entirely, at least not in the near future. This depends on how much the Lakers are willing to go over the luxury tax, but I think this deal makes sense:

Odom
Radmanovic
Farmar

Hinrich
Nocioni

The Bulls have to eat something, in this case, Radmanovic's contract, for the Lakers to even consider a deal at all.

But Farmar also has to be included, to sweeten the deal for Chicago, getting a young talented PG to back up Rose, on a rookie contract. For us, Farmar wouldn't get the minutes battling Fish for minutes behind Hinrich. Moreover, he's up for an extension in about a year, so unloading him precludes the addition of his salary and tax on our payroll.

Now, let's look at the numbers:

1. In year one, those three cost us around 21m.
Trading for Hinrich and Nocioni (18m) saves us 3m + 3m in luxury tax this season, so 6m savings total.

2. Next year, there's several scenarios a) Odom at a discount b) Odom expires, team instead uses MLE to replace him c) Odom expires, team does nothing

a) Let's say the Lakers extend Odom for around 10m (or sign and trade him), which is fairly conservative. 10m + 6.5 (Radamn) + 2 (Farmar) = 18.5m.
b) MLE signing: 6m + 6.5 (Radamn) + 2 (Farmar) = 14.5m.
c) zero, nothing. 0m + 6.5 + 2 = 8.5m.

On the other hand, it's 17m for Kirk and Andres, due to their declining salaries, which yields

a) savings of 1.5m plus the tax, so 3m total.
b) deficit of 2.5m so 5m total.
c) deficit of 8.5m so 17m total.

3. In year three, things get a little more complicated due to Farmar's extension, but I'll estimate it as the MLE = 6m. Following the 3 scenarios above:

a) 10m (Odom) + 7m (Radman) + 6m (Farmar) = 23m
b) 6m (MLE) + 7m + 6m = 19m
c) 0m + 7m + 6m = 13m

On the other hand: 16m for Kirk and Andres, again, declining salaries.

Here are the differences:

a) savings of 7m plus the tax = 14m
b) savings of 3m plus the tax = 6m
c) deficit of 3m plus the tax = 6m


Breakdown:

Taking all three years, in comparison to the salaries of Hinrich and Nocioni

a) Extending Odom (or similar) for 10m yields a savings of: 6m + 3m +14m = 23m
b) Replacing him with an MLE player instead yields a savings of: 6m - 5m + 6m = 7m
c) Letting him expire for nothing yields a deficit of: 6m - 17m - 6m = -17m


In short, trading for Kirk and Nocioni only makes sense under these conditions and these assumptions. First of all, Chicago must agree to take back Radmanovic, they can't wipe the slate completely clean. Second, the Lakers' willingness depends on just how firmly they're committed to minimizing the luxury tax.

Bottom line, if the Lakers want to wipe Odom's contract off, but are WILLING to assume at least an MLE-type addition and also extend a reasonable deal to Farmar, then this deal is a great one. The Lakers come out ahead both financially and basketball-wise (they can't get a better PG and SF, not without breaking up their core or pushing the luxury tax).

But if the Lakers want to minimize the luxury tax at ALL COSTS, then Odom fans will have their hearts broken, our team will lose talent, we will have certain holes, etc., and we'd better get used to not seeing new faces, and get used to losing old ones.


very interesting points.

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