Quote from Coach K

[jaypo]

"We have a plan, and we think it's a good plan, and a lot of it is making sure the pick-and-roll is defended by five guys, not two."

He said this about their PnR defense from last night's rout of team Canada. This quote made me think about all the blasting Shaq takes about his inability to cover the PnR. But real smart b-ball minds realize that it isn't just 1 person's responsibility to shut it down. The PnR is designed to PICK OFF a player to free up the ball handler. Shaq isn't as quick as some people. He's 300 plus lbs and 36 yrs old. But those that do the blasting need to realize what coach K points out above. It is the responsibility of all 5 on the court to defend it. And a little help on the perimeter D wouldn't hurt either!

[-SDU-]

i believe coach K was referring to how in the NBA 90% of pick and rolls are about setting up a score for the pick setter or the guard

in international ball the pick and roll is more commonly used to make the D collapse whilst opening up perimeter shooters

so having 5 players defend it i believe means that when there is a pick and roll happening its not just the responsibility of the 2 guys to defend it, thats also the time for the other 3 to stick to their men like glue because they may receive a catch and shoot before you know it

every bit of criticism pointed towards shaqs pick and roll defense is warranted and deserved, he is lazy and woeful and just as nash amare used to kill shaq with it the suns will now be killed by it

not necessarily by the other 3 guys like in the international game, but shaqs man and his decision making will ensure that in the 2 on 2 game of the NBA he will get burnt

[Cash]

i believe coach K was referring to how in the NBA 90% of pick and rolls are about setting up a score for the pick setter or the guard

in international ball the pick and roll is more commonly used to make the D collapse whilst opening up perimeter shooters

so having 5 players defend it i believe means that when there is a pick and roll happening its not just the responsibility of the 2 guys to defend it, thats also the time for the other 3 to stick to their men like glue because they may receive a catch and shoot before you know it

every bit of criticism pointed towards shaqs pick and roll defense is warranted and deserved, he is lazy and woeful and just as nash amare used to kill shaq with it the suns will now be killed by it

not necessarily by the other 3 guys like in the international game, but shaqs man and his decision making will ensure that in the 2 on 2 game of the NBA he will get burnt

SDU FTW.

[jaypo]

Well then is Nash lazy because he can't guard my mother??? Just because he's not good at defending the play doesn't mean that he's lazy. He is the anchor of the defense and likes to protect the paint. The fact that he is 36 yrs old and not as quick as he used to be could be a factor for him not being able to contain Tony Parker as Tim Duncan throws a body block on Shaq.

Lazy would be if he just sat in the paint and waited for the drives to the hoop, which is what he had to do most of last year with the Heat and Suns because pretty much everybody on both teams were playing their best Matador defense and allowing everyone get to the hoop(I think I even saw an assistant coach from the Clippers drive to the hoop). That is the reason he spent most of his time in foul trouble, because he was trying to defend 5 guys all the time.

His weakness has always been his PNR defense, but I disagree with you saying that it is due to his laziness. It's simply not that easy for a 36 yr old with that much wear and tear on his body to excel at a play designed to prevent him from doing so. I want to see how you defend the fact that Nash can't guard a chair and somehow turn that into Shaq's laziness.

[-SDU-]

lol, dude, it IS lazyness, no ifs and buts about it

you can be not a good defender but try hard and i wont diss them for it (ie nash who isnt great by a long way but tries his a$$ off) or you can be lazy and shaq is lazy on the pick and roll defense

he makes zero effort to get out to the shooters and when he does his hands are by his sides

not one ounce of question about it, shaqs defensive deficiencies on the pick and roll are the fault of one thing - laziness

your blatant defending of shaq is clearly based on bias

[jaypo]

No, the fact that you ignore everything I said shows your bias AGAINST him. Let me guess- you were probably pissed off when the trade went down to acquire him. You're a fan of the run and gun, 7 seconds or less offense with Shawn Marion throwing down dunks and hitting 3's. Am I right? Well, see how far that got ya????

What I did see is the fact that when the trade went down, the team's inability to grab a freakin' rebound drastically improved (rebounding is pure effort btw), and the defense improved from non existent to respectible. If I'm not mistaken, he came in as the 3rd option and averaged a double double. Shaq has always had a problem with the PNR. He's always had a problem shooting free throws. Is that because of laziness? No, they're WEAKNESSES!!! Just like Nash's defense. It's a weakness, not a matter of effort.

Are you going to say that everyone that Shaq or Amare or TD abuses are lazy because they can't stop them? No, they are just not physically able. If Shaq wouldn't be trying to defend the PNR, it would be a different story. But he does go out to defend it. He just can't keep up with lightning quick guards anymore, especially knowing in the back of his mind that if he is not close enough to the paint, someone will probably get a clear path to the basket.

Did you even watch the games? For you to say that he played lazy when he came to Phoenix is just blatantly false. Even in Miami, on a team with 9 wins, he dove into the scorer's table for a loose ball and injured himself. Lazy? Nah. This is just another example of the bias. Well, this year, when he helps to put your team over the edge and puts rings on the Suns' fingers, what will you say?

[tsherkin]

Shaq has had a historical issue with showing on pick-and-rolls, but it wasn't an issue when he played in Miami his first two seasons, during the three title years for LA, during his time in Orlando and it hasn't been a huge issue in Phoenix.

The man's 320 pounds and has a primary responsibility to protect the paint because shots in the key are considerably higher-percentage that perimeter jumpers. In fact, since a good shooter will shoot about 45% from the 18- to 22-foot range and those are the least likely to be reclaimed as an offensive rebound, those shots are a lot better to relinquish than a 60% point-blank layup or a 55% short jumper, etc. Obviously, it's a weakness of his because he's not as mobile as he once was and doesn't have the reaction time to close out on shooters the way he could when he was 26, but expecting that is foolish.

Nash is another example; he's far from lazy on defense, he certainly puts in the effort. He's just athletically outclassed. Like most defenders at the NBA level, he is rarely able to keep his man in front of him (in terms of scorers). A good NBA scorer can, as NBA scouts say, ASSUME that he'll beat his first man. Nash's problem is that it's not just good NBA scorers that can do this to him, it's pretty much everyone because he isn't an especially quick person and has back issues that limit his mobility to some extent (but even when he didn't). He's a decent help defender; he's not John Stockton but he's a solid team defender.

Trying to attack Shaq for pick-and-roll defense is a bit foolish and plays to overemphasized hyperbole about his defense. Do remember that this is a guy who's made All-Defensive Teams in the past and that he's 36 years old, has had a host of injuries to his lower body and is 320 pounds and 7'1. He's clearly lost mobility since his earlier days and that's to be expected; aging sucks.

Again, as someone else mentioned, the pick-and-roll play is pretty much the oldest play in basketball and perhaps the most common one as well (an estimated of 70% of NBA possessions include a pick-and-roll).

The play is designed to switch a player into a more advantageous defensive matchup and throwing a 6'0 - 6'4 guard against a big man rotating out from the paint is always advantageous for the offense and rarely so for the defense. It's why teams do it and why it continues to work after all these decades (remember, we're past 60 years of NBA basketball now and it's as much a staple as it was back then).

Returning to Coach K's comments, I'm inclined to agree with -SDU-; international ball uses the play the way that the Utah Jazz use the high sidescreen (or the mid-screen, for that matter). Yes, it's been designed to emphasize the scoring of the PF (Malone and Boozer, respectively) but you can also see that it's full of pentrate-and-pitch type plays that basically made the career of Howard Eisley, the waning years of Jeff Hornacek, exploited the skills of a guy like Mehmet Okur, etc. It's designed to show a primary threat and then open up 4 other options if that one fails. The high sidescreen play from the wing opens up the roll/pop for each of the guys involved in the immediate play, a draw-and-kick from either the roller or the initial ball-handler to the guy in the strongside pocket, maybe a kickout to a guy hovering around the weakside wing or the top of the circle and it also facilitates quick ball reversal to the weakside pocket.

It's become a staple of the triangle offense, too; you see a lot of action in the pinch post that develops out of the pick-and-roll. The Pistons used this to noted effect in the 2004 Finals (hence our discussion of Shaq's defense)... the Spurs use the pick-and-roll between Parker and Duncan as entry into their offense a lot of the time... I could go on, it's an incredibly potent play.

The international system is a lot more oriented towards using all 5 guys on the floor at once and Coach K's comments are probably a nod to the fact the Americans are, outside of Utah, used to guarding plays like Miami's high midscreen between Wade and Haslem (primarily focused on the immediate play rather than the perimeter shooters and cutters and stuff).

Remember, Jerry Sloan's offense has been basically identical for two decades and running; the international system has been playing that kind of ball for as long as it has existed because the zone defenses and trapezoidal key do not emphasize the sort of power-post game that has been typical of American offenses when- and wherever made possible by the presence of a semi-significant big man.

So yeah, I expect this means that the senior national team is finally starting to pay attention not just to the screener and the ball-handler but paying much more dutiful attention to the guys around the perimeter who are just aching to make dive cuts and screen off-ball for each other and then ruin or defense while we focus on what's happening with the two guys right by the ball.

[Cash]

No, the fact that you ignore everything I said shows your bias AGAINST him. Let me guess- you were probably pissed off when the trade went down to acquire him. You're a fan of the run and gun, 7 seconds or less offense with Shawn Marion throwing down dunks and hitting 3's. Am I right? Well, see how far that got ya????

Well, it got us past the first round.

I'm not really interested in this debate, but I will say that I think Shaq's horrendous defense is more a product of his physical limitations (he can't jump anymore and he can barely move) than outright laziness. Even when Shaq could move, he was never a good pick & roll defender, but I still don't know that I would call that laziness. Maybe more like a stubborn refusal to adapt his game.

[tsherkin]

I wouldn't call it that either, Cash, because he was pretty effective at it while winning his 4 titles and while in Orlando.

I agree that it's the product of physical limitations but there's no adaptations to be made to overcome those limitations at this point of his career. If he can't make the moves to close out on the shooter with sufficient speed, there isn't anything he can do about it. He can rotate as quickly as he can to close the lane to the basket and then box out and go for the board.

[-SDU-]

No, the fact that you ignore everything I said shows your bias AGAINST him. Let me guess- you were probably pissed off when the trade went down to acquire him. You're a fan of the run and gun, 7 seconds or less offense with Shawn Marion throwing down dunks and hitting 3's. Am I right?

Well, see how far that got ya????[/quote]

firstly, i WAS against the trade, not because i was a fan of the 7 seconds or less style but because it was for shaq. If you did your homework before spouting off at the mouth you will see that i was screaming for us to get camby or dalambert to run a more traditional system and protect amare from fouls

Well, see how far that got ya????

it got us further than shaq has so far number 1 and number 2 we were basically a corrupt ref and david stern away from being the best team in the NBA 2 seasons ago

what I did see is the fact that when the trade went down, the team's inability to grab a freakin' rebound drastically improved (rebounding is pure effort btw), and the defense improved from non existent to respectible.

our defense was underrated before then, and of course adding a true C to a Cless system will improve it. Starting skinner at the 5 all season would have had a similar affect too. Just by not playing small ball our defense improved

If I'm not mistaken, he came in as the 3rd option and averaged a double double.

something shawn marion has done for years

Shaq has always had a problem with the PNR. He's always had a problem shooting free throws. Is that because of laziness? No, they're WEAKNESSES!!!

free throws is a weakness, his pnr defense is laziness, sure sometimes he is hampered by his frame, but many many times he just stood there and didnt move while his man hits jump shots, or when he did go out he didnt put his hands up to pressure the shot, those things are lazy! sure sometimes his big feet etc means he gets caught out of position but if you watch his defense youll see many many times where he just stands still or only gives a token effort

Are you going to say that everyone that Shaq or Amare or TD abuses are lazy because they can't stop them? No, they are just not physically able.

when have i said that? it doesnt matter what the opponent does, im talking about shaqs lazyness, if a guy gives a good effort and fails, so be it (ie nashs defense, its weak but he tries 200%) but when a guy sits there and doesnt even try then he deserves all criticism that comes his way

If Shaq wouldn't be trying to defend the PNR, it would be a different story.

thats exactly what im saying he does

But he does go out to defend it.

rarely and when he does its a weak attempt

He just can't keep up with lightning quick guards anymore,

when could he?

especially knowing in the back of his mind that if he is not close enough to the paint, someone will probably get a clear path to the basket.

amare is a league leader in blocks

Did you even watch the games? For you to say that he played lazy when he came to Phoenix is just blatantly false.

obviously i watched them more than you

Even in Miami, on a team with 9 wins, he dove into the scorer's table for a loose ball and injured himself. Lazy?

the guy gives effort most times, ill never deny that, i like what he brings to the team, i know he tries, but once again, too often on the pick and roll he didnt even bother

Nah. This is just another example of the bias. Well, this year, when he helps to put your team over the edge and puts rings on the Suns' fingers, what will you say?

ill be stoked, i dont mind shaq, he brings a heap to this team, im not hating on him, im criticising 1 part of his game, does that make him a useless chump.... hell no, does his other skills mean i should overlook this lack of effort.... hell no again

[mkot]

Pick and roll defense is a TEAM effort. It starts with guard play because you have to initially determine if you're going over or under the screen. Then it's about whether the big flashes all the way out to trap or turn back the ball handler and then hustling back to cover the paint in case his guy rolls to the basket. The help should already be in position in line with the basket, covering for the big flashing out and waiting for him to regain position. If the big doesn't flash out and camps out in the lane to deny penetration (as Shaq likes doing), then there's not a whole lot to do defensively except hope the opposing big misses his jumpshots after his pops out. Say if TD is hitting that jumper from the top of the key, then we're in trouble because Shaq is either stepping out and leaving the basket open or just staying back and letting TD shoot and make shots.

I've given up on Nash and Shaq improving their pick and roll defense. No I don't think it's about laziness, I just don't think it's possible. Shaq never liked showing on the pick and roll and even though he made an attempt to do it several times he wasn't showing all the way which is even worse. Either show, or don't show at all. Either stop the guard penetration or guard the basket. The best thing, for Shaq, would probably be to let him sit back and guard the basket....even if it means means giving up a jumper to the likes of Pau, Okur, TD, Dirk when those guys are at the 5 and playing pick and roll. At least you aren't giving up layups or dunks.

Nash always work hard on defense, he just isn't capable of slowing down anyone. He's not fast enough and strong enough to guard most NBA players...The only way for us to improve our defense is to employ strategies, which I hope the new coach will do. We need to practice and learn how to execute as a team to help each other out.