Can Odom shut down Pierce?

[supaflash]

I agree with EE here. I've stated it before that the times Lamar was on PP in the finals were not good examples. He was only on him what twice the whole series? And the two times he was he was defending him like a post player. It was just poor technique, not lack of ability. When he has more full time perimeter duty he will be much more apt to stay in that deep stance and keep guys in front of him.

Like EE pointed out, look at the times he's had to switch onto a guard. He gets low and wide and forces even the quickest guys like Parker and Nash to shoot over him. If he defends Pierce like that, instead of bodying up on him and standing straight up and the bigs do their job of hedging and rotating, then it will be just like Posey on Kobe.

Lamar will be a really nice defender at the 3 spot if he simply uses the right technique in my opinion. This is as healthy as he has been in a long time and the first time in years his primary duty will be at the 3 spot and perimeter defense.

The only thing that worries me about Lamar at the 3 is how Phil coaches defense. I still don't like it and I fear that Lamar will be out pressuring guys tight and trying to body them and scrambling around. Thats when he (and the rest of the Lakers) get in trouble. Yes at times it causes turnovers and quick shots but it also leads to a lot of wide open 3s and easy buckets. With this length, I'd rather see us play a disciplined, packed in Spurs style D.

[Erik Eleven]

I agree that our biggest deficiency last season was a strong, defensive 3. I strongly disagree that Odom is that, or can be that. While he might be a better option than anyone else, that says more about the rest of the candidates than it does him.

And that's sort of the point of this thread. Was there really a better option out there this summer? One that would undoubtedly be a better option than Lamar at the three? Maybe Mitch did the right thing by staying put. We don't need Odom to shut down Pierce. Maybe my topic title was a little off, I wanted to spark conversation. No individual player can shut down Pierce on his own. In my opinion, what we need is a three that can make sure Pierce won't dominate us at will. I think Odom can do that.

Other than his length, I'm just not seeing him as anything more than adequate, especially as it pertains to slowing down the likes of Paul Pierce and LeBron James. That simply isn't going to happen.

I'm not so sure about that. I might be guilty of over rating Lamar's defense, but it seems to me as if most of this board has always under rated his defense. He's a pretty good defender, in my opinion. I agree that if he's going to log big minutes at the three, he needs to improve his perimeter shooting over the summer, but I'm not so worried about his perimeter defense. He's maybe the best available option that we could have realistically got this summer.

Lamar is quick compared to other power forwards. But those guys? They'll absolutely devour him, bones and all. I agree that he'd almost certainly fare better than Radmanobitch, but again -- that's not saying much. And let's not forget that Lamar isn't exactly the most tenacious guy who's ever stepped on a basketball court. That's a pretty important quality when it comes to playing D, not to mention the ability to focus, another Odom shortcoming.

Nobody can completely shut down Pierce, Butler and LBJ. Not single handedly. Again, I shouldn't have gone for the attention grabbing topic title. And yes, tenacity is the number one key to become a good defender. But I think some may be surprised at how good a job he can do in a more well defined and narrow defensive role. So far, I think Odom has put it on himself to be all over the place because his team has needed his defensive help all over the place. My main point being, what other alternatives did Mitch have to consider? I don't think there were any undoubtedly better options out there this summer. I'm for one thrilled that he didn't trade Lamar for Artest and contracts. Sure, I'd do Tayshawn Prince, Aaron Afflalo and Lindsey hunter for Odom, but that wasn't ever a realistic option, I think.

It just seems to me that since he's been here we've come into the season, on multiple occassions, hearing about how Lamar was going to see more time at small forward. And inevitably, he always ends up at his natural, and by far the best, position -- the 4. Not because the composition of the team has prevented him from playing elsewhere, but because he lacks the game to do so.

I have to respectfully disagree with some of that. One could also argue that he's seen so much time at the four position because we haven't had a choice not to play him there. We were loaded with SFs last season and thin on bigs. That's why Odom guarded Perkins in the Finals. Had he guarded Pierce and Bynum guarding Perkins, the Lakers might have had a decent shot at winning that series.

That's not to say that he shouldn't see time at the 3 -- he will, and I expect there will be nights he does well. This team should have plenty of versatility, which is a facet Jackson would be foolish not to exploit. I agree with you in that sense. But over the long haul of an 82-game schedule, Lamar just isn't suited for heavy perimeter duty. Keep him at the 4 as much as you can, and you not only play to his strengths but you help shore up our lack of depth up front. Win-win.

I'm with you. But it'll be very interesting to see what a defensive unit of Bynum, Gasol, Odom can do against Perkins, Garnett, Pierce. It'll be a hell of a lot better than Gasol, Odom, Radmanovic. Maybe even better than any other three man unit we could have put together in free agency and trades, this summer. That's my main point — people have been complaining about Mitch's lack of moves. I have, too. Just not any trades including Odom. A championship team needs an unselfish swiss knife type player like Odom. I think he'll surprise some people on the defensive end at the three. The team make-up since he got here hasn't allowed for him to focus on one thing only. Not until now. I'm optimistic.

[slifersd]

Before everyone gets their hopes up about Odom once again, let's think about the answer to one question first, when has Odom ever been able to shut anybody down? I have seen him guard big and small players and I have never ever seen him shut any of them down. He has all the physical tools, but his defense just isn't good enough to actually make his man's life miserable the way a guy like Artest, Battier or Prince does. I would never ever bank the hopes of our championship on this guy.

[Leonidas]

Can LO shut down PP? No, but his length may give Paul a little problem. Kinda like what Shane did to Kobe. The Ole hand in the face. Pauls crossover is more like a slowover. His moves have always been slow, he just always had power to his game.

But I kinda thinks that Paul would have his hands full trying to gaurd Lamar in the post. If Phil uses LO the way Pat Riley did with LO in Miami, Paul would have his share of problems gaurding LO.

[Erik Eleven]

Before everyone gets their hopes up about Odom once again, let's think about the answer to one question first, when has Odom ever been able to shut anybody down? I have seen him guard big and small players and I have never ever seen him shut any of them down. He has all the physical tools, but his defense just isn't good enough to actually make his man's life miserable the way a guy like Artest, Battier or Prince does. I would never ever bank the hopes of our championship on this guy.

I wouldn't either. He's proven time and time again that he isn't clutch. I'm just trying to say that out of what we might have been able to accomplish by trading him this summer, none of it might have been better than keeping him and moving him predominantly to the three. He will play more minutes at the three next season, and I'm not all that sure that Odom's perimeter defense will suck as bad as many seem to think. I'll remain optimistic until I see the opposite happening. I think a more well defined role will do him good.

[Hoops23]

My answer to the title of this thread is NO. Odom cannot shut down Pierce. The point is not about shutting him down but getting him below his average. It wil recquire a team effort.

The Lakers should add a defensive coach and not rely to much on offense or "Tex Winters Triangle".

[KB54]

I actually like LO at the 3 v. Pierce. Pierce is strong, not as quick as people think. His offensive arsenal is efficient and he uses his weight/strength to his advantage without much wasted effort. LO's been battling 4s for a few years now - so Pierce's strength shouldn't bother LO much.

The only thing I worry about is his jumper which like his overall game is inconsistent. Depending on matchups, PJ could put Ariza out there for a different look if LO isn't getting it done that night. (OT: I think Ariza is 10-15 lbs away from having a breakout season). Then there is our ace in a hole: MVP at the 3.

I like the premise of this thread looking at LO defensively at the 3 and not offensively where I believe we will once again be a top 5 team in ppg. LO is an underrated defender. I just want him to be there for us mentally focused every night. It's his KT year so I expect big things for him. Even against Pierce.

But to answer the question of this thread - no LO cannot shut down Pierce. The rules simply won't allow it. What I do expect him to do is make Pierce work for everything offensively and make him work defensively - unlike what happened in the Finals.

[Erik Eleven]

I actually like LO at the 3 v. Pierce. Pierce is strong, not as quick as people think. His offensive arsenal is efficient and he uses his weight/strength to his advantage without much wasted effort. LO's been battling 4s for a few years now - so Pierce's strength shouldn't bother LO much.

The only thing I worry about is his jumper which like his overall game is inconsistent. Depending on matchups, PJ could put Ariza out there for a different look if LO isn't getting it done that night. (OT: I think Ariza is 10-15 lbs away from having a breakout season). Then there is our ace in a hole: MVP at the 3.

I like the premise of this thread looking at LO defensively at the 3 and not offensively where I believe we will once again be a top 5 team in ppg. LO is an underrated defender. I just want him to be there for us mentally focused every night. It's his KT year so I expect big things for him. Even against Pierce.

But to answer the question of this thread - no LO cannot shut down Pierce. The rules simply won't allow it. What I do expect him to do is make Pierce work for everything offensively and make him work defensively - unlike what happened in the Finals.

Good post. Welcome to the board, man.

Again, I shouldn't have used that provoking/stupid thread title to get a point across. It worked against what I was trying to say. Nobody can shut down Pierce, just like nobody can shut down LBJ or Kobe.

I mainly wanted to get the point across that we might be better off defensively at the three than what the general consensus on this board suggests. People seem to have thought that if we don't add a player, we'll have the same poor defense at the three that we did last year. All while forgetting that Odom will play a lot more SF next season. Compared to Radmanovic, Odom being moved to the three improves our SF defense by approximately 100%. I think this is part of why Mitch was so reluctant to make a move for Odom this summer, and I'm glad he didn't.

I'm not against trading Odom and his expiring before the trade deadline, but only as long as it undoubtedly makes us better. See Gasol trade. High score trades or staying put is the way to go at this point, I think. This roster is very deep and very versatile, and they've played together for a long time, now. I'm very optimistic for next season.

[Sedale Threatt]

E, I understand your points, I just disagree as it regards to Odom and defense. I not only don't see him stopping players like Pierce, I don't see him slowing them down, either. I think any expectations to the contrary are simply wishful thinking and/or offseason over-optimism.

That said, I am also excited about our chances next season. Although I would have liked to have seen us pull the trigger on Artest -- if it was even a possibility in the first place, which seems doubtful in hindsight -- I am not discouraged in the slightest that we're standing pat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with letting Bynum work his way back into the team and judging things only after we've gotten some games under our belt.

If Odom is producing as you predict, fabulous. All the better for us. If he isn't, we'll still have the option to move him before the deadline. And if they're just going to let him go at season's end regardless...well, I'll be freaking furious, but we'll cross that bridge when it's time.

[tayzer]

Odom defense is better than his offense to me. He would be able to contain Pierce, but not shut him down entirely, unless Bynum is in the paint to block shots. Gasol wasn't that good of a help defender as Bynum. This year it's going to be payback.

The thing about Pierce is it's hard to defend him because whenever u get close to him he starts to flop, he is one of the best at it.

[SPuL]

It just seems to me that since he's been here we've come into the season, on multiple occassions, hearing about how Lamar was going to see more time at small forward. And inevitably, he always ends up at his natural, and by far the best, position -- the 4. Not because the composition of the team has prevented him from playing elsewhere, but because he lacks the game to do so. .

Really? Who exactly were we supposed to play at the 4 prior to now? Brian Cook? Ronny?

It was 110% because of the composition of the team.

Now, with Bynum in the paint to allow Odom to play his man tight & not worry about them driving, he will use his length to make life miserable for jumpshooters. Also if you notice, our PG's started getting torched on D right around the time Bynum went down because our defensive anchor went from a dominant Bynum to one of the softest 7 footers of all time.

I think Lamar/our overall team D is going to be the best it's been in a very long time with AB back.

[slifersd]

Before everyone gets their hopes up about Odom once again, let's think about the answer to one question first, when has Odom ever been able to shut anybody down? I have seen him guard big and small players and I have never ever seen him shut any of them down. He has all the physical tools, but his defense just isn't good enough to actually make his man's life miserable the way a guy like Artest, Battier or Prince does. I would never ever bank the hopes of our championship on this guy.

I wouldn't either. He's proven time and time again that he isn't clutch. I'm just trying to say that out of what we might have been able to accomplish by trading him this summer, none of it might have been better than keeping him and moving him predominantly to the three. He will play more minutes at the three next season, and I'm not all that sure that Odom's perimeter defense will suck as bad as many seem to think. I'll remain optimistic until I see the opposite happening. I think a more well defined role will do him good.

Well stated point of view, although I do not agree with what you said. To me, trading Odom for Artest and maybe someone like Brad Miller is a deal that can push us over the top. After all, we need a defender/tough guy like Artest and more depth up front. Hell, I think even Kenny Thomas or SAR would do pretty well for us knowing how Phil is good at playing veterans.

Odom is a talented player but he doesn't really fit in at the three, as he has proven to us many times before. His lack of outside shooting and defensive skills makes him a very undesirable option for our starting three spot. I have seen Odom guard plenty of small forwards in the league and let's just say that I am not impressed one bit about his performances. I have seen him guard LBJ, Anthony and TMac, to name a few and all of them manage to score a lot of points while shooting a high percentage. That, to me, says a lot about the kind of defender that he is. Sure, he puts an arm up, but it never seems to bother anyone.

[dockingsched]

I have seen him guard LBJ, Anthony and TMac, to name a few and all of them manage to score a lot of points while shooting a high percentage. That, to me, says a lot about the kind of defender that he is.

c'mon now. u gotta have better examples than 3 superstars.

[Erik Eleven]

^ +1

Also, I'd rather take Odom's inconsistency with his versatility than Artest's toughness with his radioactive personality. Any day of the week. I agree that we need more defensive toughness at the three. The question is, who could we have got this summer that's a stronger defender at the three? Who was the reasonably obtainable guy that we should have traded Odom for? Artest was the only one, right?

I wouldn't have minded to add Ryan Gomes, Najera or Diawara to this team, btw. None of them for the price of Odom, though.

Depending on matchups, Ariza can do a lot of defensive damage at the three position next season, thus freeing up Odom to play the four. Same with Kobe. But the starting line-up should have Odom at the three in it, because he's the only one on our roster that's strong enough to be that defensive player we're lacking.

Having Odom gobbling up long range rebounds and leading the break is a luxury. We might end up being the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA next season with that frontline.

[kno]

I actually see Lamar Odom playing a lot more PF than SF next season, even with the addition of Bynum and Mihm down low.

I highly doubt Phil will be satisfied with a frontcourt that consists of Radman/Mihm as primary backups.

[ChocolateThundr]

Trade Radman and the sun shines brighter

[slifersd]

I have seen him guard LBJ, Anthony and TMac, to name a few and all of them manage to score a lot of points while shooting a high percentage. That, to me, says a lot about the kind of defender that he is.

c'mon now. u gotta have better examples than 3 superstars.

Who do you want me to use? The example of Odom can shut down Shane Battier? Besides, Anthony and TMac aren't superstars, they are just good players.

[dockingsched]

saying that odom can't guard superstars like lebron, melo, tmac doesn't mean a whole lot. to say that it says a lot about the kind of defender he is...well thats just completely off base. its the equivalent to saying....."I have never seen andrew bynum shoot long range jumpers. That, to me, says a lot about the kind of offensive threat he is.

[what would jack bauer do?]

I recall Odom doing a great job guarding Melo and especially Tmac in the spot minutes he got against them in the regular season. His spacing was perfect against Tmac, he utilized his length perfectly to disrupt T-mac's jump shot and he kept enough distance from him to prevent the drive. So I disagree with the people saying he can't guard 3's. I think it's a question of whether or not his body will hold up if we ask him to do it for 82 games. We all know he's had a nagging knee injury for the last 3 years and there was even talk that he needed surgery last summer.

I think we're going to be in a good situation with LO this year, he won't be recovering from shoulder surgery again and historically he shows improvement in his jumper in years succeeding surgery years. I like the idea of him splitting his time between power forward and small forward. I know he's capable of guarding 3's for a full game, but we should really save his knee for the playoffs.

I was pissed that Phil didn't try a Fisher/Kobe/LO/Turiaf/Gasol line-up in the finals because I know Odom is capable of guarding 3's like he did earlier in the year against Melo and Tmac. That would've given us the defense, shotblocking, rebounding, and physicality we needed against Boston.

[joe.linnen]

I must say I really wished we would have signed Jarvis Hayes and/or Matt Barnes when they were free agents.

SF:Odom/Hayes/Walton
PF:Gasol/Powell/Radmanovic
C:Bynum/Mihm/???????????
SF:Bryant/Vujacic/Ariza
PG:Fisher/Farmar/Yue