Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense

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Original Baller
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#21 » by Original Baller » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:10 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:I actually made this point a year or so ago. It's not just defense, either. If you combine the best aspects of Kobe/Lebron/Wade (as they were 18 months ago), you would *basically* get Jordan:

- Kobe's one-on-one defensive ability, midrange game, footwork, shooting touch, killer mentality
- Wade's tenacity with penetration, his playmaking, his help defense and defensive playmaking, and his energy
- Lebron's finishing ability, rebounding, and athleticism (minus the bulk)

Jordan would still have things over a combination of these players -- for example, he had a better post game than any of them, was a better decision maker/had a higher bball IQ, and he exerted more energy more consistently than any of them (speaking of MJ from age 26-29).

But yeah, Wade has tremendous defensive insincts and always seems to come up with the big block or steal or forced TO, much like Jordan (Jordan had even better instincts, though; only perimeter guy I've ever seen who's close is Pippen). Lebron has some of that as well. Kobe's individual defense, when he really tries, is about 90% as effective as Jordan's (MJ's edge comes fom slightly better lateral movement, strength, anticipation, and quicker hands that allowed him to pressure the ball). Their combined defense, assuming it was consistently played at a high level, would be a reasonable approximation of Jordan's defense from '88-'93.


you also forgot

MJ could leap over a building in a simple bound like Superman, he also had the wit and quick thinking of Batman, as well as the awareness and agility of Spiderman.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#22 » by Jordan23Forever » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:48 am

Original Baller wrote:you also forgot

MJ could leap over a building in a simple bound like Superman, he also had the wit and quick thinking of Batman, as well as the awareness and agility of Spiderman.


How..."original."
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#23 » by Bgil » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:05 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:I actually made this point a year or so ago. It's not just defense, either. If you combine the best aspects of Kobe/Lebron/Wade (as they were 18 months ago), you would *basically* get Jordan:

- Kobe's one-on-one defensive ability, midrange game, footwork, shooting touch, killer mentality
- Wade's tenacity with penetration, his playmaking, his help defense and defensive playmaking, and his energy
- Lebron's finishing ability, rebounding, and athleticism (minus the bulk)

Jordan would still have things over a combination of these players -- for example, he had a better post game than any of them, was a better decision maker/had a higher bball IQ, and he exerted more energy more consistently than any of them (speaking of MJ from age 26-29).

But yeah, Wade has tremendous defensive insincts and always seems to come up with the big block or steal or forced TO, much like Jordan (Jordan had even better instincts, though; only perimeter guy I've ever seen who's close is Pippen). Lebron has some of that as well. Kobe's individual defense, when he really tries, is about 90% as effective as Jordan's (MJ's edge comes fom slightly better lateral movement, strength, anticipation, and quicker hands that allowed him to pressure the ball). Their combined defense, assuming it was consistently played at a high level, would be a reasonable approximation of Jordan's defense from '88-'93.



I could spend hours ripping apart your Jordan worshiping and revisionist history but I think we've both worn our arguments into the ground. I will address the issue in bold though.

John Stockton was the only perimeter player with better steal/TO instincts than Jordan. In his athletic prime he was an insane help defender. He didn't block shots like Jordan but he stole the better.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#24 » by pacers33granger » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:19 am

CB4MiamiHeat wrote:I wouldnt say Kobe can stay in front of everyone..neither would i say that with MJ..
but yea youre right..thats why i laugh at the MJ comparisons with Kobe or Wade..Wade plays like young MJ and Kobe plays like older MJ, but neither is close.........the guy was so much better......he had Wades help defense, shot blocking ability, and driving abilities..but he also had Kobes man defense, fadeaway, and 3pt shot ...


jordan did not have kobe's 3pt shot....
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#25 » by Jordan23Forever » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:46 am

Bgil wrote:I could spend hours ripping apart your Jordan worshiping and revisionist history


Yeah, because people really listen to your constant pro-Kobe/anti-Jordan spiel. :lol:

John Stockton was the only perimeter player with better steal/TO instincts than Jordan. In his athletic prime he was an insane help defender. He didn't block shots like Jordan but he stole the better.


It's not just about steals or blocking shots, it's about reading and anticipating plays. No one was better than Jordan in that respect. He could sniff out a dive by a big off a delayed screen and roll from the opposite side of the floor and cut the angle to get in front of the pass and pick it off. He knew when post players were spinning baseline and could get there first (from the weakside) to draw the charge, strip them, or force them to turn back. He could read all sorts of off the ball action and knew who the eventual recipient was and what angle the pass was going to take. And, of course, he was the best post doubler in the league, and could shut the down entire side of the floor on post-ups singlehandedly along with picking off entry passes galore. Instincts also involve being able to recover properly (e.g., on closeouts, anticipating which direction the player will try to drive and cutting it off before he gets there), helping on penetration etc.

Stockton was a great steals artist without question, and a terrific team defender, but he wasn't Jordan's equal in terms of overall defensive instincts.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#26 » by kooldude » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:50 am

Haha, m23j really outdone himself with that piece of homerism right now.
Warspite wrote:I still would take Mitch (Richmond) over just about any SG playing today. His peak is better than 2011 Kobe and with 90s rules hes better than Wade.


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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#27 » by icewill36 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:54 am

jordan is one of the most overrated defenders ever in the league.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#28 » by Jordan23Forever » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:17 am

icewill36 wrote:jordan is one of the most overrated defenders ever in the league.


Keep telling yourself that.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#29 » by The Main Event » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:45 pm

icewill36 wrote:jordan is one of the most overrated defenders ever in the league.


Unless you have any evidence to suggest that Jordan should not be praised for his defense than who are you to call him "overrated." Show us the numbers that validate your argument.

Jordans23forever is called out for being an MJ homer but he backs all of his arguments with statistical analysis and relative information. I personally have learned alot about MJ by just reading some of his posts and am appreciative of the thought he puts into them.

If you want to argue something, save the one liners and take 10 minutes to gather some information.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#30 » by joe.linnen » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:44 am

Jordan has moved on, so lets all do the same. I hate it when people want other playes to be like some other great player. Just let that player do them. I like Kobe, Wade, and James because of the kind of player they are. They go out there and just do them. I know that none of them go out there and say well lets see how I can be more like Mike. People lets get with the program and move the hell on.
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Re: Wade + Kobes Defense = MJ's Defense 

Post#31 » by Pats19andO » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:35 pm

Phils Back!

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