This year's roster as they fill last year's roles

[Ballings7]

As an outsider and follower of the league, I don't understand the iffy feelings for Powe.

Powe's only going to get better as he matures and gets more time - which should be as a member of the rotation (rather than inconsistent). Whenever he plays, he produces on both ends (at least whenever I've seen him play since his rookie season). He's an adequate, tough, multi-skilled role-playing big man.

He's going to be a valuable piece for you guys, as he has already shown at times.

On back-up center, I think if not trading for somebody, if POB doesn't really get it done, you guys should look at Dale Davis or even get back Theo Ratliff.

[sam_I_am]

The last 29 games Powe averaged 16.3 mpg 9.3 pts and 4.6 rbs, increasing month to month up to the playoffs. During that time he faces a wide array of top PFs and occasionally Cs too. The team's defensive numbers were extremely solid when Powe was on the court, barely different from the starting rotation's averages. He didn't just face bench players during that time either, that's not how it works.

Complete game logs of Powe's competition:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... &year=2008

We can agree to disagree, but I used your own words to try and understand your viewpoint and I simply cannot agree with them...

Thank you Bill. That was a nice post.

I hope you are right about Powe. As far as me saying he is "Earthbound" I just mean that he is not a high flyer who can play above the rim like a 6-11 guy despite being undersized - like Barkley for example. He is undersized for a post player and his speed and jumping ability are not better than the average athletic big men who are not undersized. He did have that superior ability prior to knee injuries in college and that was why he was a potential lottery talent at one time.

Powe is productive and I agree that he is a nice option off the bench as a backup PF. I think he ultimately will be replaced on our roster rather than be retained for 5 million a year because the team's great need is a big man who can back up both C and PF.... but mainly the C position. Having a PF who can knock down 3's and guard perimeter 3's is our other need. With 3 max salary guys we cannot afford to tie up the type of salary you envision Powe commanding for a guy who does not fill the need we have.

Powe could be a terrific backup for a team whose superstar was a true Center and needed to fill the PF position by committee.

[GuyClinch]

Not many of us do agree with Sam's points when it comes to Al Jefferson and I'm guessing now Leon Powe completely, but the subject itself on Powe and how the team provides roles around the all-stars certainly has the potential for good discussion and even arguments over the next season, but we can do it the right way.

^^^ Speak for yourself. What do you have some kinda insta-poll which lets you know the feelings of the readers on this board? Sam was right on target with regards to Jefferson and people DID agree with him at the time.

I think Sam speaks some truth about Powe. I am higher on Powe then he is (I suspect). But he is undersized for the 4 and 5 spots. I wouldn't call him 'earthbound' though - thats big baby Davis. Powe's leaping ability isn't what it used to be but it has returned some.

I think he can kinda morph into a poor man's Xavier McDaniel who was always a favorite of mine. You can't really replace size - even with decent leaping ability. Length and size are what keep guys like Shaq and Perkins in the league. I realize Shaq is an extreme example but he is also huge. In a smaller player his skill set would be unremarkable at best.

Pete

[tlee324]

^^^ Speak for yourself. What do you have some kinda insta-poll which lets you know the feelings of the readers on this board? Sam was right on target with regards to Jefferson and people DID agree with him at the time.

Well of course I knew your opinion, on the matter, but Sam changed his criticism time and time again on Jefferson as he improved as a player. I think you wanted Iverson to come to the team and was ready to see Jefferson go for that... you never really answered that question straight up back then. I said the only player I'd want to see come in for Jefferson was KG.

I didn't agree with his views on Jefferson early on in threads that have more than likely been deleted or are too old to bring up. If you agreed with him, that's great. I think he's now a 20/10 player, one which Sam said he wouldn't become. I also felt that he matched up with Pierce would have been an excellent combination. Sam just wanted Jefferson gone, pretty much.

I think Sam speaks some truth about Powe. I am higher on Powe then he is (I suspect). But he is undersized for the 4 and 5 spots. I wouldn't call him 'earthbound' though - thats big baby Davis. Powe's leaping ability isn't what it used to be but it has returned some.

Do you think his second round status has anything to do with how he can perform on the floor today?

[sam_I_am]

Well of course I knew your opinion, on the matter, but Sam changed his criticism time and time again on Jefferson as he improved as a player. I think you wanted Iverson to come to the team and was ready to see Jefferson go for that... you never really answered that question straight up back then. I said the only player I'd want to see come in for Jefferson was KG.

I didn't agree with his views on Jefferson early on in threads that have more than likely been deleted or are too old to bring up. If you agreed with him, that's great. I think he's now a 20/10 player, one which Sam said he wouldn't become. I also felt that he matched up with Pierce would have been an excellent combination. Sam just wanted Jefferson gone, pretty much.

This is exactly the sort of revision that occurs in thread after thread.

Yes I wanted Jefferson gone. No I never said he couldn't be a 20/10 player, I just said his 20/10 is not worth it. He was worth it on his rookie contract coming off the bench in 6th man role but not as a starter at his current salary (which is BTW less than I predicted he would get).

I do believe and will say it time and time again that he cannot be a 20/10 player on a good team. He cannot be the best player on a good team. His 20/10 are as suspect as SAR's or Juwan Howard's were early in their careers when they played for perennial lottery teams. Notice how those guys stopped averaging 20/10 as soon as they were traded to teams with good players.

The main issue with him is that he is a big man but with him you still need a big man. You cannot get away with a servicable PF/C next to him. You still need a dominant defensive big man (which means top 3 lottery pick or max salary free agent) next to him to be competitive.

You can take Al and his 20/10 because I don't want them. I prefer big men who control the paint on the defensive end.

[sam_I_am]

Well of course I knew your opinion, on the matter, but Sam changed his criticism time and time again on Jefferson as he improved as a player. I think you wanted Iverson to come to the team and was ready to see Jefferson go for that... you never really answered that question straight up back then. I said the only player I'd want to see come in for Jefferson was KG.

I didn't agree with his views on Jefferson early on in threads that have more than likely been deleted or are too old to bring up. If you agreed with him, that's great. I think he's now a 20/10 player, one which Sam said he wouldn't become. I also felt that he matched up with Pierce would have been an excellent combination. Sam just wanted Jefferson gone, pretty much.

This is exactly the sort of revision that occurs in thread after thread. I was clear cut in my position: trade the youth for veterans. Do not waste Paul Pierce's prime waiting for an inferior player like Al to come along. So yes, when Al Jefferson came up for trade for Iverson I might have supported it. However, in my recall, it was Pao Gasol who I wanted to trade for because I didn't think we had enough to get KG. And as Pao proved this season .... he too would have been a major upgrade over Al.

Yes I wanted Jefferson gone. No I never said he couldn't be a 20/10 player, I just said his 20/10 is not worth it. He was worth it on his rookie contract coming off the bench in 6th man role but not as a starter at his current salary (which is BTW less than I predicted he would get).

I do believe and will say it time and time again that he cannot be a 20/10 player on a good team. He cannot be the best player on a good team. His 20/10 are as suspect as SAR's or Juwan Howard's were early in their careers when they played for perennial lottery teams. Notice how those guys stopped averaging 20/10 as soon as they were traded to teams with good players.

The main issue with him is that he is a big man but with him you still need a big man. You cannot get away with a servicable PF/C next to him. You still need a dominant defensive big man (which means top 3 lottery pick or max salary free agent) next to him to be competitive. He also fails to make the players around him better - unlike Pao and KG.

You can take Al and his 20/10 because I don't want them. I prefer big men who control the paint on the defensive end. And history has proven me to be 100% correct in this argument. 100%. Trading Al was the best thing that has happened to this franchise since the McHale/Parish trade.

[floyd]

You say you'd take Gasol over Al, but that Al's problem is D. Well, that's Gasol's problem too. Gasol is a nice passer, but if we're talking bigs that can score and play no D, give me the one that cleans the glass over the finesse guy any day.

[tlee324]

It takes way more than a single player to win, and there was just too much "Jefferson can't win" and not enough team talk in those discussions. Pierce can't win on his own, and neither could Garnett or Ray. They won together. And we never really got a chance to see Pierce and Jefferson in a full season based on injuries of both players at different times in their careers. I never saw it as wasting his prime, because having a player that can score inside, good hands, and controlling the boards with Pierce was a great option to have on the team, better than bringing in Iverson for this team, IMO. KG was the only player to really trade a 20/10 teenager for. And it'll never be proven "100%" that Jefferson won't be a part of a winning team, because it's not based on him alone, it depends on how well they build a team with Jefferson. This isn't anything new..it's just like when Curmudgeon claimed that Pierce wouldn't win.

[Gomes3PC]

Jefferson, right now, is not good enough to carry a team on his own. He's not a Pierce or Garnett or even an Elton Brand right now. However, he has the ability to be that in the future, and even if he doesn't that doesn't make him some kind of failure. He's a terrific low post player who got over-criticized here by some (and over-hyped by others, to be fair).

Just remember, Big Al is STILL just 23 years old entering this season. That's the same age as our rookie, JR Giddens. Al has plenty of growing as a player left to do, particularly in the passing and defense areas. He'll never be a KG in these spots, but how many Garnett's are there in history (I see just 1 by my count)?

As far as Powe goes, he is undersized, but his excellent wingspan and good athleticism make up for some of that. He also has terrific feel around the basket and footwork, getting him inside position. If he learns to hit the outside jumper a bit more, like on the baseline or elbow, he can become a real all-around threat. Carlos Boozer is not a whole lot bigger than Powe and has become a regular All Star. If he can average 9+ and 4.5 in just 16 MPG, give the guy 30 minutes and he'd be a lock for 17-18 PPG and 9+ RPG, with good efficiency as well. I'd call that more than just a bit player.

[billfromBoston]

Al Jefferson may be THE dominant low-post scorer in the NBA RIGHT NOW...his ability to score in the paint forces other teams to double and triple team him continually...his efficiency in the low post is lethal, and he is beginning to learn how to draw FTs with more frequency too...

His team defense isn't up to snuff yet, but his man defense is pretty solid...I also think its completely irresponsible to label a player a "career loser" when he's only been on very young, inexperienced teams...you have a THEORY, based on very little evidence besides a feeling that his numbers are hollow and he doesn't play defense...the man has never been on a team with any veteran experience or long-term cohesion...give him some time..

Personally, I think this season Minnesota is going to take a quantum leap forward...wouldn't be surprised to see 35-40 wins out of them this season-they could really surprise...they still don't have much veteran stabalization, but Jefferson/Love/Gomes/Miller/Foye looks like a nice, balanced team offensively with good rebounding and intelligent playmaking at almost every position...defense will be their problem at first, but they have potential to be a decent team defense if they apply themselves to it...

For the record I believe Sam was somewhat critical of Jefferson's ability to become a "star" player, which would imply he didn't think he'd reach 20/10 level, but with no official record of it there's no way to prove it.

However, I do remember your argument for the longest time was that Jefferson was a hollow stats player like Shareef or Zach Randolph, so we'll see....but I don't understand how Sam frame's his opinion on Jefferson based on the situations he's been in. He's had 1 1/2 season's of being a full time starter and both teams were totally saturated with youth..if the argument is that Jefferson's ability alone should be enough to win if he was indeed a great player, I think that ignores the needs a big-man has for a complementary perimeter threat as well as solid role players around him...Boston and Minnesota were not built to win...Boston had a chance, but Pierce went down as well as Wally and thus ended any chance we would have had to see them in action all at their peak...

I'm still betting on Jefferson being a great, multi-time All Star...he's already been picked by the Olympic committee and earmarked for the future men's national team, I'd say that's quite an accomplishment/statement for a 23 year old player...