Olympic games thread - General

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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#261 » by dacher » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:33 pm

The Chinese passport's trump the legal age that the kids parents entered for them in provincial tournaments, but you'd have to be a complete absolute moron to believe that the parents of 3 separate gymnists all accidentally forgot what year their kids were born in.


How are their parents entering them in tournaments? Don't Chinese parents of athletes pretty much give up custody of their chosen child to the Chinese sports machine? I thought Chinese gymnasts lived and trained year round in national training centers, with every activity being orchestrated by their coaches. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Their coaches must have forgotten or confused their age with someone else. See, I can make up stuff too.

Quack baseless claims of any type are usually quickly identifiable by claimants going directly to the media and court of public opinion and bypass official vetting, dispute resolution and arbitration systems already in place. True for quack medicine, quack science, quack get-rich-quick, quack religions. I agree with other posters, if US gymnastics and olympic committee felt they had a case they would file a complaint with the IOC. Chinese media says that the US claim of underage gymnasts was investigated by international gymnastics in April and China was cleared.

The IOC is very strict about cheating -- and there are systems in place to investigate age fraud like in Little League World series and overage players. As it is, if it is just talk and stirring up yellow media, American coaching behavior and US gymnastics and IOC not muzzling the Karoly's is quite unseeming. Unfortunately we've seen classless from other coaches in other events too -- the idiot Spanish basketball coach dissing Larry Brown in the 2004 Olympics comes to mind.

Until this is more than lowest class media garbage, its just a case of sour grapes, low class games-man-ship to demean and shake rival Chinese girls.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#262 » by 5DOM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:02 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... medal.html


Swedish wrestler Ara Abrahamian vows to quit after throwing away Olympic medal

Swedish wrestler Ara Abrahamian has said he will quit the sport after he walked out of a presentation ceremony in Beijing and threw his medal to the floor.


i did hear that there were controversies in wrestling too, but didnt know something like this happened.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#263 » by j127 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:08 pm

Again, none of this would be an issue at all if Sacramone hadn't messed up her routine (making huge errors at the wrong time), if Johnson and Liukin hadn't stepped out of bounds, and if the US team had matched the difficulty of the Chinese gymnastics team (the Chinese routines were more difficult than the American ones). Had they made less mistakes and they ended up taking the gold (as they were expected to), they would be on top of the podium and this would be a complete non-issue.

Besides, the same girls in the middle of the controversy, as well as the US women's team (Liukin, Johnson, Sacramone, etc...) all participated in 2007 World Artistic Gymnastics Championships in Stuttgart, Germany. And that was last year. If the girls were really 14 now, imagine how much more child-like they would've been last year. And no one, not even US gymnastics coach Karolyi, said anything back then, despite knowing that those group of Chinese girls were all going to Beijing? How come?

And what a coincidence. The US girls won gold at the end of the team finals in those Championships.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#264 » by Rasho Brezec » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:09 pm

5DOM wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2559292/Swedish-wrestler-Ara-Abrahamian-vows-to-quit-after-throwing-away-Olympic-medal.html


Swedish wrestler Ara Abrahamian vows to quit after throwing away Olympic medal

Swedish wrestler Ara Abrahamian has said he will quit the sport after he walked out of a presentation ceremony in Beijing and threw his medal to the floor.


i did hear that there were controversies in wrestling too, but didnt know something like this happened.

Yeah, he looked really mad screaming at the referees. They probably s*** their pants. :D
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#265 » by 5DOM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:18 pm

terryoh wrote:Again, none of this would be an issue at all if Sacramone hadn't messed up her routine (making huge errors at the wrong time), if Johnson and Liukin hadn't stepped out of bounds, and if the US team had matched the difficulty of the Chinese gymnastics team (the Chinese routines were more difficult than the American ones). Had they made less mistakes and they ended up taking the gold (as they were expected to), they would be on top of the podium and this would be a complete non-issue.


so people can cheat as long as they dont win gold medals?
that's crazy. this should be an issue no matter who wins.
of course we dont know if the chinese really cheated tho.

terryoh wrote:Besides, the same girls in the middle of the controversy, as well as the US women's team (Liukin, Johnson, Sacramone, etc...) all participated in 2007 World Artistic Gymnastics Championships in Stuttgart, Germany. And that was last year. If the girls were really 14 now, imagine how much more child-like they would've been last year. And no one, not even US gymnastics coach Karolyi, said anything back then, despite knowing that those group of Chinese girls were all going to Beijing? How come?

And what a coincidence. The US girls won gold at the end of the team finals in those Championships.


Karolyi said this.

But it is not likely that anyone could prove that the Chinese gymnasts are under age, Karolyi said.

“It’s literally impossible,” he said. “The paperwork is changed just too good. In a country like that, they’re experts at it. Nothing new.”


and this was in July. so he probably knew that there was nothing he could do about it.

also to the people who are saying that if the chinese really cheated, IOC would have done something by now.

“We heard these rumors, and we immediately wrote to the Chinese gymnastics federation” about He, said André Gueisbuhler, the secretary general of the international federation. “They immediately sent a copy of the passport, showing the age, and everything is O.K. That’s all we can check.”
If someone provided proof that any gymnast was under age, or filed a formal complaint, Gueisbuhler said, he would be “quite happy to check and ask again.”
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#266 » by j127 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:25 pm

The Championships were September of 2007. The same girls who people are claiming are 14 or younger were in those same Championships too.

The media didn't say anything. Karolyi didn't say anything. The US Gymnastics Association didn't say anything. No one said anything, fully aware back then that the same Chinese team would go to the Olympics. Why didn't anyone say anything?

Was it because the "children" looked old enough back then, but don't look old enough now? Probably not. More likely it was that the US won gold and nothing else mattered.

5DOM wrote:so people can cheat as long as they dont win gold medals?
that's crazy. this should be an issue no matter who wins.
of course we dont know if the chinese really cheated tho.


And that's the most important issue at the moment. People take the "guilty until proven innocent" route.

We don't know. And if those girls really are 14 or 15 (and not turning 16 by the end of this year), the Chinese should very well give back the medals and those girls should be banned from at least the next two Olympics, if not more.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#267 » by 5DOM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:35 pm

terryoh wrote:The Championships were September of 2007. The same girls who people are claiming are 14 or younger were in those same Championships too.

The media didn't say anything. Karolyi didn't say anything. The US Gymnastics Association didn't say anything. No one said anything, fully aware back then that the same Chinese team would go to the Olympics. Why didn't anyone say anything?


perhaps because just like Karolyi said this July, there was nothing you could do about it?
remember that this rumor came out BEFORE US' loss a couple of days ago. so it is not like US is being a sore loser who just started reacting after the loss.
plus, i dont think many cared about the gymnastics championships anyway.

terryoh wrote:And that's the most important issue at the moment. People take the "guilty until proven innocent" route.

We don't know. And if those girls really are 14 or 15 (and not turning 16 by the end of this year), the Chinese should very well give back the medals and those girls should be banned from at least the next two Olympics, if not more.


yeah, but the sad part is that we'll never know for sure, unless they really cheated and a person involved comes out.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#268 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:43 pm

How are their parents entering them in tournaments? Don't Chinese parents of athletes pretty much give up custody of their chosen child to the Chinese sports machine? I thought Chinese gymnasts lived and trained year round in national training centers, with every activity being orchestrated by their coaches. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Their coaches must have forgotten or confused their age with someone else. See, I can make up stuff too.


Sorry, the government forgot the ages of the kids then. Does it matter? You seriously expect me to believe that half the gymnastics team had clerical errors about their age in all their other previous provincial tournaments without age requirements, but when they get to the ones that do have age requirements they entered in the correct birth years?

That's the story you're going with? Sorry BS.

Quack baseless claims of any type are usually quickly identifiable by claimants going directly to the media and court of public opinion and bypass official vetting, dispute resolution and arbitration systems already in place. True for quack medicine, quack science, quack get-rich-quick, quack religions. I agree with other posters, if US gymnastics and olympic committee felt they had a case they would file a complaint with the IOC. Chinese media says that the US claim of underage gymnasts was investigated by international gymnastics in April and China was cleared.

The IOC is very strict about cheating -- and there are systems in place to investigate age fraud like in Little League World series and overage players. As it is, if it is just talk and stirring up yellow media, American coaching behavior and US gymnastics and IOC not muzzling the Karoly's is quite unseeming. Unfortunately we've seen classless from other coaches in other events too -- the idiot Spanish basketball coach dissing Larry Brown in the 2004 Olympics comes to mind.

Until this is more than lowest class media garbage, its just a case of sour grapes, low class games-man-ship to demean and shake rival Chinese girls.


This isn't a media issue.

It's a "China is cheating in front of your face" issue. If you don't want to believe it then that's fine. Personally, I've just had enough conversation with professionals dealing with Chinese sports to know that age falsification is a rampant issue in China that's done in other sports as well. Not people bitter about it, but people who have no dog in the fight because they're just running Chinese basketball camps and things like that and have just been around long enough to know how things work.

Maybe that unfairly colors my view knowing what they do in basketball as well, but there is zero doubt in my mind that China cheated and their government covered it up, and since the government holds all the official documents of course they're clear of any investigation. How could they not be? I mean it's basically like asking someone if they cheated and then taking their word for it, there is no other way to find out. There is no other source to go to.

I don't actually care about the gymnastics thing, what I find appalling is the backlash against people for basically calling the cheaters out as cheaters. Seriously, you want to direct your outrage at someone then direct it at the person who's actually cheating. What stinks is this isn't the fault of the Chinese girls who were clearly the best at the Olympics and deserving of the gold and did an outstanding job. At their age and in their country they have no choice. However, it's appalling that the Chinese government is basically getting away with it, and Americans are even lambasting the other Americans for bringing it up. Much like how we didn't want to talk about steroids for a long time.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#269 » by canoner » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:54 pm

all of this is SPECULATION. The rule of "innocent until proven guilty" should apply to all. If you think the passport is forged, prove it. Go look for birth certificate. It is not that hard to find out when someone is born, not in the age not in china. Chinese women look younger just like american men look older. you cannot judge people by look. Who would guess that Lebron was 18 or Oden is still only 19 if you take a look of them?

The US track and filed team actually defended Jones when she was first accused of doping and there was no serious investigation. Had she not admitted doping later on, there wouldn't have been any punishment.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#270 » by 5DOM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:03 pm

canoner wrote:all of this is SPECULATION. The rule of "innocent until proven guilty" should apply to all. If you think the passport is forged, prove it. Go look for birth certificate. It is not that hard to find out when someone is born, not in the age not in china. Chinese women look younger just like american men look older. you cannot judge people by look. Who would guess that Lebron was 18 or Oden is still only 19 if you take a look of them?


the problem here is that you can't prove anything. the thinking is that the government is behind all this.

and it's not like the looks are the only thing that led to this speculation here.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#271 » by Blame Rasho » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:05 pm

canoner wrote:all of this is SPECULATION. The rule of "innocent until proven guilty" should apply to all. If you think the passport is forged, prove it. Go look for birth certificate. It is not that hard to find out when someone is born, not in the age not in china. Chinese women look younger just like american men look older. you cannot judge people by look. Who would guess that Lebron was 18 or Oden is still only 19 if you take a look of them?

The US track and filed team actually defended Jones when she was first accused of doping and there was no serious investigation. Had she not admitted doping later on, there wouldn't have been any punishment.


In China they don't have the "innocent until proven guilty"... It is guilty till proven innocent.

If you want to to believe they are going to be 16 this year... ok but eyes don't lie and I wouldn't exactly trust the government who wouldn't tell how old Yi really is.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#272 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:12 pm

all of this is SPECULATION. The rule of "innocent until proven guilty" should apply to all. If you think the passport is forged, prove it. Go look for birth certificate. It is not that hard to find out when someone is born, not in the age not in china. Chinese women look younger just like american men look older. you cannot judge people by look. Who would guess that Lebron was 18 or Oden is still only 19 if you take a look of them?


No, it would be more like if LeBron James graduated high school in 2000 and we had documented him as being 18 at that point then issued him a passport saying he was 18 in 2003 to play in a 18U tournament then. The girls have been documented in other tournaments as being underage multiple times each.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#273 » by Blame Rasho » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:15 pm

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

BEIJING (AP)—Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government’s news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.

In its report Nov. 3, Xinhua identified He as one of “10 big new stars” who made a splash at China’s Cities Games. It gave her age as 13 and reported that she beat Yang Yilin on the uneven bars at those games. In the final, “this little girl” pulled off a difficult release move on the bars known as the Li Na, named for another Chinese gymnast, Xinhua said in the report, which appeared on one of its Web sites, http://www.hb.xinhuanet.com

The Associated Press found the Xinhua report on the site Thursday morning and saved a copy of the page. Later that afternoon, the Web site was still working but the page was no longer accessible. Sports editors at the state-run news agency would not comment for publication.

If the age reported by Xinhua was correct, that would have meant He was too young to be on the Chinese team that beat the United States on Wednesday and clinched China’s first women’s team Olympic gold in gymnastics. He is also a favorite for gold in Monday’s uneven bars final.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#274 » by hermes » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:39 pm

boy that threw me for a second said womens team, but kept saying "He", but thats her name
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#275 » by canoner » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:09 pm

A news report is not legally admitted proof of anything. IOC cannot act on that.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#276 » by 5DOM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:34 pm

neither is a fake passport, o wait
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#277 » by canoner » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:03 pm

5DOM wrote:neither is a fake passport,


no it is not, but you have to prove it is fake.
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#278 » by GQStylin » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:52 am

Dang Phelps again! :x
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#279 » by Blame Rasho » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:55 am

GQStylin wrote:Dang Phelps again! :x

8-)
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Re: Olympic games thread - General 

Post#280 » by Cowology » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:57 am

GQStylin wrote:Dang Phelps again! :x

:rocking: :king: :lift: :bowdown: :usa:

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