Phelps or Bolt

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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#201 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:37 pm

Comparing across sports is difficult at the best of times, Bolt can't hold Phelps jock right now as far as I'm concerned, but Carl Lewis is a completely different story.


I went back and forth on this, but I think I've eventually come to the same conclusion.

I do think Phelps could shut the door on Lewis if he dominates the 2012 games like he did this games. That's getting way ahead of ourselves, but hypothetically if Phelps earned 4-6 medals in 2012 in 6 events and maybe he earns 2-3 more medals in 2016 as a relay guy and does one individual event then I think Phelps could cement himself as the greatest Olympian ever where it'd be really hard to argue against him.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#202 » by eyeatoma » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Newsflash, they aren't the same sport, and simply not comparable in such a fashion.


So the 100m 200m 400m 4x100 4x200 and 4x400 are so different that they aren't considered the same sport.

Yet the 100m butterfly and 400m individual medley in swimming ARE close enough to be considered the same sport?


The difference lies in the fact that the butterfly is an alternate form of swimming compared to freestyle...

There are so many different ways to swim...There is only one, universal way to run, and every single one of the track competitions are determined with athletes running in that unanimous way...
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#203 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:41 pm

There are so many different ways to swim...There is only one, universal way to run, and every single one of the track competitions are determined with athletes running in that unanimous way...


And so you running in the one style you can't win the 100, 200, and 400 because? But you can win the 100, 200, and 400 swimming because?
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#204 » by 5DOM » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:41 pm

read this post at the Raps board, and agree with it 4x100%.

knickerbocker2k2 wrote:I'm sorry but when you dominate and win the 100M in world record time, and doing it the way Bolt has done it, he certainly has taken the stage as the best athlete at this olympics. 100M is the TOP olympic event, and while not to diminish Phelps amazing feet, it doesn't compare to track.

Phelps is going down as one of the top (probably best if he does well in next olympics) olympian. It's amazing how he is dominanting swimming, but as others have mentioned the number of medals is deceiving. Alot of the events are kinda of duplicates. For instance I was watching this other american swimmer who has 11 medals. That is more then most great olympians and nobody would call her top Olympian. As for the world records, almost every single swimming event has seen new world record. It has to do with various factors, so by winning obviously he is setting a world record.

Another factor helping Bolt is that he is truely going against top level athletes in global event. Swimming is really not global sport/rich mens sport. It excludes the vast majority of the population due to how restrictive it is to participate. Only select athletes from select countries (USA, Australia, some G-8 countries) take part in. While track for the most part is accessible to most people in the world. Thus you get greater competition.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#205 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:45 pm

I agree with most of that.

I think Bolt's win is the most impressive single event win this Olympics.

I think Phelps will go down as the greater Olympian historically.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#206 » by redux46 » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:45 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Swimming has specialists too, and the fact that Phelps has been able to beat all the specialists is something I think many don't seem to appreciate. My point is that Phelps has 5 more Gold medals than the next greatest swimmer. He's got 55% more golds than the next closest swimmer (or athlete of any genre including 2 t&F guys and one gymnast).



There are four techniques: freestyle, breast stroke, back stroke, and butterfly.

Phelps did not beat any backstroke or butterfly specialists. So please get your facts straight.


And he didn't beat the 50m and 100m freestyle specialists, who are regarded as the fastest swimmers.

The butterfly, breast stroke, and backstroke are gimmicky events as they offer no advantage at all over the front crawl method of swimming, which is easily proven as the freestyle event permits any swim technique but is universally done using front crawl.


If the gimmick events were taken out I bet Phelps would still own. Except he would be getting 1-2 gold, which is what almost every other olympian deals with.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#207 » by JWizmentality » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:50 pm

Clean sweep for my girls in the 100m!!!! YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

JA 2 USA 0

Booyah!!!!!
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#208 » by 5DOM » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:51 pm

kinda off topic, but how many of you can swim in all 4 styles?
i never learned how to swim butterfly, and havent swum in years.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#209 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:56 pm

Phelps did not beat any backstroke or butterfly specialists. So please get your facts straight.


I think you mean breast stroke, since he did butterfly and freestyle.

The butterfly, breast stroke, and backstroke are gimmicky events as they offer no advantage at all over the front crawl method of swimming. If this were to happen I bet Phelps would still dominate but put him in a non-US team and he'd end up with 1-2 gold, which is more or less what runners deal with.


Fair point, of course we'll never know what he'd do if he only had to focus on freestyle.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#210 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:58 pm

kinda off topic, but how many of you can swim in all 4 styles?
i never learned how to swim butterfly, and havent swum in years.


I know how to swim all four, but I've never swam competitively or anything. My grandparents owned a huge in ground pool, and I had to stay there all summer growing up while my mom worked, and there was nothing to do but swim, so I used to swim a lot.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#211 » by eyeatoma » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:I agree with most of that.

I think Bolt's win is the most impressive single event win this Olympics.

I think Phelps will go down as the greater Olympian historically.


I don't think anyone ever disputed that...

I think the dispute was over who has been more impressive over these games...
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#212 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:07 pm

I don't think anyone ever disputed that...

I think the dispute was over who has been more impressive over these games...


No, I think several people have debated that. There have been several people who've said that Bolt will be historically more relevant than Phelps as an Olympian.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#213 » by canoner » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:11 pm

redux46 wrote:And he didn't beat the 50m and 100m freestyle specialists, who are regarded as the fastest swimmers.


He didn't beat the 50m and 100m freestyle because he is NOT the most explosive swimmer out there. The key to his winning is the dolphin kick he performs under water after each turn. He does it longer and faster than the rest. 50m has no turn so no good for Phelps. 100m only has one turn so he almost blew it.

Strictly speaking, Phelps is a butterfly specialist. It is a stretch to call him the fastest swimmer in the world.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#214 » by eyeatoma » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:18 pm

dougthonus wrote:
I don't think anyone ever disputed that...

I think the dispute was over who has been more impressive over these games...


No, I think several people have debated that. There have been several people who've said that Bolt will be historically more relevant than Phelps as an Olympian.


Apart from these games? If thats the case I honestly don't know about that. What Bolt has done is remarkable, and I believe is the highlight of the games, but for him to be a better Olympian than Phelps he needs to win in more races, per year, atleast 3-4...

He needs to get to a Michael Johsnon/Carl Lewis (don't think that'll ever happen) level to be even be considered as the greatest Olympian of all time.

Without a doubt Phelps is the most successful Olympian ever. There are no two ways about it, and I don't think anyone is disputing that...
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#215 » by eyeatoma » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:20 pm

dougthonus wrote:
I don't think anyone ever disputed that...

I think the dispute was over who has been more impressive over these games...


No, I think several people have debated that. There have been several people who've said that Bolt will be historically more relevant than Phelps as an Olympian.



What people were saying is that one would remember this olympics for Usain Bolts dominant, otherwordly performance in the most physically demanding race known to man. Even though Phelps was the most successful olympian, the sheer shock value of Bolts performance will remain etched in peoples memory for a greater time.

That I agree with...
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#216 » by GQStylin » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:25 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Get back to me when Bolt wins the gold in:
100m
200m
400m
4x100 relay
4x200 relay
4x400 relay
110 hurdles
400 hurdles
long jump
triple jump


So the 100m 200m 400m 4x100 4x200 and 4x400 are so different that they aren't considered the same sport.

Yet the 100m butterfly and 400m individual medley in swimming ARE close enough to be considered the same sport?


Doug, sorry to say, but your argument is fundamentally flawed. The fact is is that its INFINTITELY easier to dominate in swimming than it is in any other sport in the olympics. Also its INFINITELY easier to learn different styles of swimming and win in all of them than it is for a track athlete to win in entirely different disciplines.

Just look at the history of olympics. Can you find me many track athletes that compete in long jump, triple jump, hurdles and then go on to compete in 100m, 200m, 400m? I doubt you can, because its hard to master so many track disciplines, which is why no one has done it before successfully.

Now look at the history of swimmers in the olympics. At every single olympics you will ALWAYS find a hand full of elite swimmers that dominate and win the lions share of the medals. And that's because its MUCH easier to learn all the styles of swimming and to dominate in them. Again history tells you this is true as there's never been a track athlete that has dominated a bunch of disciplines the way you're talking about because its near impossible.

The closest thing to an all around track athlete is a decathlete and while they're good at a number of track events, they are the best at none of them. The best times, throws, jumps etc that a decathlete can do is nowhere near the what an athlete who specializes in each of those events can do. That should tell you how hard it is to do what you're posturing and why your argument doesn't make sense, because what you're proposing isn't humanly possible.

On the otherhand, elite swimmers have been dominating each olympics time after time. Doesn't this tell you something? IE its easier to learn and dominate in swimming than it is on track and field? So while what Phelps has accomplished is great, its not something that hasn't been done at almost every single olympics previously, but just not quite on a grand scale.
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#217 » by eyeatoma » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:27 pm

^^Excellent post...
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#218 » by canoner » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:35 pm

It is worth pointing out that 4 of Phepls' 8 golds came from relays. Had Phelps come from another country without other world class swimmers it would be impossible to win those medals. Also in other events that do not have team competitions or this many of them, athletes don't get this many extra opportunities to win gold medals.

What is most individual golds anyone has won in a single game in the history?
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#219 » by 5DOM » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:44 pm

canoner wrote:It is worth pointing out that 3 of Phepls' 8 golds came from relays.


fixed
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Re: Phelps or Bolt 

Post#220 » by dougthonus » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:45 pm

Doug, sorry to say, but your argument is fundamentally flawed. The fact is is that its INFINTITELY easier to dominate in swimming than it is in any other sport in the olympics. Also its INFINITELY easier to learn different styles of swimming and win in all of them than it is for a track athlete to win in entirely different disciplines.


You're the one who said if there was 100m hopping that Bolt would dominate. What are the 110m hurdles?

Just look at the history of olympics. Can you find me many track athletes that compete in long jump, triple jump, hurdles and then go on to compete in 100m, 200m, 400m? I doubt you can, because its hard to master so many track disciplines, which is why no one has done it before successfully.


I agree, but I'm not the one who said if there was the 100m hopping and 100m running backwards etc that Bolt would dominate you did. I merely pointed out that there are plenty of track events who's primary goal (or one of them) is to run fast.

Now look at the history of swimmers in the olympics. At every single olympics you will ALWAYS find a hand full of elite swimmers that dominate and win the lions share of the medals. And that's because its MUCH easier to learn all the styles of swimming and to dominate in them. Again history tells you this is true as there's never been a track athlete that has dominated a bunch of disciplines the way you're talking about because its near impossible.


I agree that swimmers have an inherent advantage in medal count. Given that advantage, Phelps has earned 4 more total medals than the next closest swimmer, 5 more gold medals than the next closest swimmer (or Olympian), and 1 more medal than any other swimmer in any single Olympics. The ability to dominate multiple Olympics or as many events as Phelps in one Olympics has never been done by any swimmer before. So to say, in general, it's easier to get medals in swimming, I agree.

However, to say, because of that what Phelps has done is commonplace is not true at all. No one has done anything close to what he has done.

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