Phelps or Bolt

[TheGlyde]

Here's a ranked list of athletes who have won multiple Gold medals in one olympics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mu ... e_Olympics

I do agree with most of what you have pointed out Al, Phelps has had the more impressive Olympics (so far), but this table is ridiculously incomplete, Carl Lewis isn't on there... Thorpe, Petria Thomas, Jodie Henry, Grant Hackett... just to name a few recent Aussie Swimmers... there are probably hundreds more athletes who have won multiple gold, I've very sure it hasn't only happened 19 times.

[Al n' Perk No Layups!]

Here's a ranked list of athletes who have won multiple Gold medals in one olympics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mu ... e_Olympics

I do agree with most of what you have pointed out Al, Phelps has had the more impressive Olympics (so far), but this table is ridiculously incomplete, Carl Lewis isn't on there... Thorpe, Petria Thomas, Jodie Henry, Grant Hackett... just to name a few recent Aussie Swimmers... there are probably hundreds more athletes who have won multiple gold, I've very sure it hasn't only happened 19 times.

I mentioned Thorpe and Lewis wasn't a swimmer so I wasn't concerned with his exclusion. In Wiki's defense it does say the list is incomplete, unfortunately for the life of me I can't find a complete list. Basically, I don't think there's any other swimmers with a "lion's share" of gold medals, which would be five maybe four if you stretch it (but five seems more like it). Since Neither Hackett, Thomas, Thorpe or Henry have gotten more than three in one Olympics so I think it does list all of the Swimmers who have a "lion's share" of golds.

I did find this massive list of career golds though:

http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1016389

[Doctor MJ]

The guy broke the record with a shoelace untied. How do you beat that performance?

I do think that this is funny. A big chunk of the reason why people are enthralled with Bolt is because of all the stupid stuff he did that didn't hurt him. Count me in the group who can't wait to see what he does when he peaks, but also in the group that hopes he learns to tie a damn shoe before he breaks his neck.

[Doctor MJ]

Ah and this is where the heart of the disagreement is. Swimming as of now is something developed nations compete in and in those developed nations it will mainly be done from those with the resources. Overall it's a pretty elitist sport.

Wrestling involves far more nations. The US, Russia, Europe, and Asia all have legitimate contenders in the field.

Both sports have legit contenders from the US, Russia, Europe, and Asia dude.

A quick look at the medal count reveals the real difference. Swimming is being dominated by the US and Australia, Wrestling is dominated by Eastern Europe. So I'd say an allegation that I'm bias by my nationality is not necessarily unreasonable, but the argument that Wrestling is much more of a global sport is absurd since it's actually got much more of a geographical bias than Swimming.

[TheGlyde]

Pretty sure with Bolts stride being over 2 metres, an untied shoelace isn't going to hurt him unless his shoelace is over 2metres long lol...

From memory Edwin Moses broke the WR in the 400m Hurdles with an untied shoelace as well, so maybe it enhances performance

Edit: Moses only won the world championship with the shoelace untied, but still

[YiOF]

The reason that makes Phelps better is his advantage in his dolphin kick. It is well documented that his knees are double jointed that can bend more than normal which give him more propulsion. Both Free style and butterfly use this dolphin kick motion(free style just uses one leg at a time), after every single turn he uses the dolphin kick. He almost lost the 100m butterfly which uses least of his dolphin kick advantage. The fact that this one advantage enable him to have the possibility of winning 8 gold just tells me how redundant and similar all these different strokes are. The bottom line is there is way more swimming medals than there is suppose to be.

The number of people who participate in Swimming is also limited. It's like when people say the Chinese are winning all the pingpong medals, because nobody cares about or plays pingpong. I am sure there are people who can be good swimmers who never tried to swim. Many countries don't even have standard pools. To give you one example about the level of competition swimmers face: Dara Torres who has never won a individual metal in her prime won a silver(lost by 0.001 seconds) in 50 meter freestyle (aka 100m dash of swimming) at the age of 41. I can vaguely remember there was one female sprinter who still competes in her 40s, but she wasn't close to medaling in the Olympics. As for male sprinters, anyone over 30 is rare. In the other, every single healthy human being have sprinted in their youth.

I really don't think winning 8 gold in swimming is as big of a deal as the US media made it to be. If Bolt wins 200m and looks as easy as he did in 100m, he will be no doubt the better of the two.

[BadWolf]

It is well documented that his knees are double jointed

i have a lot of experience in rthopedics and can't really imagine what that could mean

some research

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmgKf8JHgLU

The term "double-jointed" is not accurate at all, but is often used to describe people who have joint hypermobility syndrome.

"he joint hypermobility syndrome is a condition that features joints that easily move beyond the normal range expected for a particular joint. The joint hypermobility syndrome is considered a benign condition. It is estimated that 10%-15% of normal children have hypermobile joints, or joints that can move beyond the normal range of motion. There is a tendency of the condition to run in families (familial). It is felt that certain genes are inherited that predispose to the development of hypermobile joints. Genes that are responsible for the production of collagen, an important protein that helps to glue tissues together, are suspected of playing a role.
Joint hypermobility is also a feature of a rare, but more significant medical condition called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome that is characterized by weakness of the connective tissues of the body. This condition is inherited in specific genes passed on by parents to their children." (1)

Joint hypermobility syndrome runs in my family. My father could turn his legs around so that both feet were facing backwards (the toes pointing back, and the heels forward). This is hypermobility of the knees. I can do the same thing, and sometimes do it just to freak people out.

I can also touch the tip of my thumb to my forearm, which is hypermobility of the wrist.

My brother can wrap his right arm all the way around behind his head and under his chin and touch his right ear from the front...this is hypermobility of the shulder joint. He can do the same with his left arm, of course, and can also stick both his feet behind his head without any strain...hypermobility of the hips. He doesn't have hypermobility of the knees, though...can't turn his feet backwards.

So, no, double-jointed does not mean you have two joints instead of one...but it does exist.

[dougthonus]

Stop at the bold. That's it, it's about him raising his arms. He didn't shut it down and jog, period. His record is impressive but untill he wins about eight gold medals (career) he can't even be mentioned with Phelps.

Opinions will vary, and I think Phelps was the best story of this Olympics, but I don't think Bolt needs to win 8 medals to be in the same breadth. He needs to do something that no one else has ever done. There are plenty of things he could do to fall into that category other than medal count (win and defend both the 100 and 200 would be a great example).

Just for these particular Olympics, if he wins and breaks the WR in both the 100 and 200 then I think that's enough where I could see the realistic argument to take Bolt over Phelps in these Olympics.

[Susan]

I'm not following your argument. You're either saying that Spitz had his swimming career shortened by lack of modern training facilities and that made the difference which isn't true because both have competed in two Olympics (besides Phelps one swim in 2000) and Phelps has him beat. Or you're saying that Phelps has an advantage that Spitz didn't with all the modern tech and training which also isn't true because Phelps' opponents have the same tech and training Phelps has while Spitz' opponents had the same lack of tech and modern training.

Jesus. I haven't once mentioned modern training facilities. Read up on the AAU and what happened in 1978. Before then, athletes who competed in the Olympics were forced to stay amateur. The whole culture has changed since 1978. It's not about facilitates, it's about athletes before 1978 having no means to train like a professional athlete while having a job that pays the bills. To say that Phelps is the greatest of all time when there are performances in Olympic games that are just as impressive (albeit not as many medals) is foolish. It's apples and oranges.

[snapcracklepape]

Phelps did something amazing, there's no question about that. But Bolt is unreal, no doubt a baller.

[dougthonus]

Jesus. I haven't once mentioned modern training facilities. Read up on the AAU and what happened in 1978. Before then, athletes who competed in the Olympics were forced to stay amateur. The whole culture has changed since 1978. It's not about facilitates, it's about athletes before 1978 having no means to train like a professional athlete while having a job that pays the bills. To say that Phelps is the greatest of all time when there are performances in Olympic games that are just as impressive (albeit not as many medals) is foolish. It's apples and oranges.

It is apples and oranges, however that change watered down the competition making it easier to pick up gold medals with many great athletes not being able to participate. It greatly narrowed the field. The number of people who specialize and train today for different events makes being dominant across multiple event categories a much more daunting task IMO.

[Al n' Perk No Layups!]

I'm not following your argument. You're either saying that Spitz had his swimming career shortened by lack of modern training facilities and that made the difference which isn't true because both have competed in two Olympics (besides Phelps one swim in 2000) and Phelps has him beat. Or you're saying that Phelps has an advantage that Spitz didn't with all the modern tech and training which also isn't true because Phelps' opponents have the same tech and training Phelps has while Spitz' opponents had the same lack of tech and modern training.

Jesus. I haven't once mentioned modern training facilities. Read up on the AAU and what happened in 1978. Before then, athletes who competed in the Olympics were forced to stay amateur. The whole culture has changed since 1978. It's not about facilitates, it's about athletes before 1978 having no means to train like a professional athlete while having a job that pays the bills. To say that Phelps is the greatest of all time when there are performances in Olympic games that are just as impressive (albeit not as many medals) is foolish. It's apples and oranges.

Your argument states there is some competitive advantage in Phelps' favor, but there isn't. These two aren't racing each other, they're racing their competition. The competition is harder now than it was then.

[deNIEd]

I've been a track athlete for 7 years, and what Phelps did was far more phenomenal than what Bolt did.

If Phelps was only racing in 3 events, instead of 8, I guarantee you that his margin of victory would be the same as Bolt's. Phelps was swimming either in finals or trials nonstop, every time he could slow down a little bit he did, simply because he needed the energy. Phelp's first race, he absolutely destroyed his competition.

Bolt impresses me from his limited time in the 100m.


Why can't we just say that they are both great athletes. You can't compare the two. The two are completely different sports and completely different feats.

[BadWolf]

Why can't we just say that they are both great athletes. You can't compare the two. The two are completely different sports and completely different feats.

Why can't some think Phelps is more impressive and some think Bolt is more impressive?

[Michael Phelps]

Me without a doubt.

[Susan]

Your argument states there is some competitive advantage in Phelps' favor, but there isn't. These two aren't racing each other, they're racing their competition. The competition is harder now than it was then.

And your point is? Spitz clearly had his career cut short by the lack of money in the sport. Jesse Owens only got one Olympics because of that whole World War 2 thing. Paavo Numri didn't get to run in the 1932 games because he got labeled a "professional" after he advertised for some company. Carl Lewis got screwed by the 1980 boycott. We're talking about the best Olympian of all time and Phelps has severe longevity advantages over other athletes in the past. Not to mention the lack of diversity in the competitors in swimming. Pretty much it's all USA and Europe compared to track which has athletes from pretty much everywhere.

[Doctor MJ]

And your point is? Spitz clearly had his career cut short by the lack of money in the sport. Jesse Owens only got one Olympics because of that whole World War 2 thing. Paavo Numri didn't get to run in the 1932 games because he got labeled a "professional" after he advertised for some company. Carl Lewis got screwed by the 1980 boycott. We're talking about the best Olympian of all time and Phelps has severe longevity advantages over other athletes in the past. Not to mention the lack of diversity in the competitors in swimming. Pretty much it's all USA and Europe compared to track which has athletes from pretty much everywhere.

Pops in again to marvel: Spitz, Nurmi, and Lewis all competed in at least as many Olympics as Phelps, so why on earth would anyone argue that Phelps has had "severe longevity" advantages over them?

(With Owens on the other hand, I'd listen to that argument not only against Phelps but against these other guys)

[SportsWorld]

Me without a doubt.

Lame.

[Susan]

Pops in again to marvel: Spitz, Nurmi, and Lewis all competed in at least as many Olympics as Phelps, so why on earth would anyone argue that Phelps has had "severe longevity" advantages over them?

(With Owens on the other hand, I'd listen to that argument not only against Phelps but against these other guys)

2000, 2004, 2008

1968, 1972

????

Nurmi would have run in 1932 had he not gotten voted out.

Phelps has nothing holding him back from competing til whenever he wants. He's getting paid millions of dollars to do this full time, those other guys (besides Lewis) had to struggle while maintaining their incredible levels of fitness.

[5DOM]

Why can't we just say that they are both great athletes. You can't compare the two. The two are completely different sports and completely different feats.

I've been a track athlete for 7 years, and what Phelps did was far more phenomenal than what Bolt did.