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ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic

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What kind of player do you think Goran Dragic will most likely turn out to be?

Hall of famer
2
6%
Superstar
0
No votes
Allstar
4
12%
Solid starter
14
41%
Solid back up
4
12%
Journey man
4
12%
Bust
6
18%
Other(name it)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

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ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#1 » by MaryvalesFinest » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:39 am

Found an interesting article about Goran Dragic and the Suns from ESPN

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-3 ... ragic.html

Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic

August 18, 2008 6:03 PM


If you listen to Suns executives like Steve Kerr and David Griffin tell it, Slovenian point guard Goran Dragic is one hell of a point guard.

The 6-4 Dragic is so good, they say, that they might have taken him with the 15th pick of the first round.

And now, according to Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic, Goran Dragic will be in a Suns uniform this season, after lengthy negotiations to free him of his European contract.

While the Suns are not exactly a tight-fisted team -- payrolls have been high -- Phoenix has made several dubious cost-cutting measures in recent years. The team could have had the likes of Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Fernandez, and Sergio Rodriguez but sold or traded away the picks, to the profound frustration of fans in a hurry to see the team win a championship while Steve Nash is still one of the NBA's elite point guards.

But in the case of Dragic, the team has paid and paid and paid.

They reportedly paid a half-million dollars to move up three spots in the second round to head off the Detroit Pistons, who were also said to be interested. Phoenix reportedly paid another half-million dollars to help buy him out of his European contract.

On top of that, speculation is that the Suns may have awarded Dragic one of the longest and richest contracts in the history of second-round picks. And, thanks to the luxury tax, the Suns will pay all of that money twice -- once to Dragic, and again to the NBA.

All of which makes you think: Dragic had better be good.

On that front, the Suns' brass has a lot of conviction. I love that. Identify the players you like and then -- everyone else's views be damned -- go get them.

Did you watch that behind-the-scenes video of the Suns war room on draft night? Griffin and Kerr either did an amazing job acting, or they really went into this draft with eyes for the two players they got: Robin Lopez and Goran Dragic.

He has been touted as Steve Nash's eventual successor.

But what if Steve Kerr and company are simply wrong?

They have more information than anyone. But based on the available evidence, there are some worrying signs.

ESPN's John Hollinger a method of using statistics to project European players' statistics into NBA numbers.

On that front, Dragic does not impress.

"His translated Euroleague stats from last year," says Hollinger, "are terrible."

"It's off a small sample (358 minutes), but it projects to 10.1 points and 5.6 assists per 40 minutes, 44.0% shooting, and a 8.38 PER."

An average NBA player has a PER of 15. In fairness, PER does not capture defense beyond blocks, steals, and rebounds. And defense is Dragic's calling card.

Nevertheless, put it all together, and what is Hollinger's assessment? "Yikes," he says. "Hardly seems worth all that trouble."

Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress has analyzed Dragic's play on the court, and he too wonders what all the fuss is about. Givony wonders if the money European are offering NBA-level players, and the fear that Dragic might never make it to the U.S., caused the Suns to panic a little. Givony e-mails:

It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me personally. I think Dragic is a solid prospect who could develop into a nice rotation player in two to three years, but the way people are talking, you would think he's going to be making a run for Rookie of the Year honors.

Right now Dragic is pretty much going to help you in one area only: defense. He is great at putting pressure on the ball, getting in the passing lanes, and getting his team extra possessions. He's going to struggle running an offense, though, and unlike a lot of combo guards these days, he's not going to make up for that with his perimeter shooting nor his ability to create his own shot.

I actually think Dragic would have been better suited staying in Europe for another season -- there were a lot of minutes to be had playing with Tau in both the Euroleague and ACB, and he probably needed that bridge between the NBA after the fairly underwhelming season he had with Olimpija last season.

The track record of players coming straight out of the Adriatic League and finding any kind of success in the NBA, especially immediate, is pretty much nil historically. (Nenad Krstic, Sasha Pavlovic, Vladimir Radmanovic are the only three I can think of out of a long line of failures). Now try to think of successful European point guards in the NBA ... outside of Tony Parker and Jose Calderon, it's slim pickings. That's why we're always going to approach these type of prospects with cautious expectations.

But I understand Phoenix's perspective. They've been severely overworking Steve Nash during the regular season in recent years, and considering that he's turning 35 this season, they can't afford to play him 34-35 minutes per game for 82-100+ games at the pace they play at. So they need a good backup. Problem is Dragic isn't ready for that in my mind. I'm not even sure how different he is compared to D.J. Strawberry actually.

The very same D.J. Strawberry, that is, who looked good in summer league as the athletic, tenacious guy who hounds scorers on the perimeter but is offensively challenged. How many of those can one team use?

Which all leads to an interesting question for Suns fans: Where is all this headed?

The team clearly did not click right off the bat with Shaquille O'Neal at the end of last season. Perhaps time together, a chip on the shoulder, and a new coach in Terry Porter will be good for some more wins.

But roster-wise, there haven't been any earth-shattering changes. The newcomers are Matt Barnes (who had fallen out of the rotation in Golden State), Lopez, and Dragic. There ought to be development from Strawberry and Alando Tucker.

The lion's share of the minutes, however, will still be consumed by Nash, O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, Grant Hill, and Boris Diaw. Increasingly, that is seeming like it is not enough to win the tough West.

On the other hand, with lofty expectations for Dragic, the puzzling trade for O'Neal, and a new style of play under Porter, the Suns may have succeeded in doing the impossible: Somehow they got more interesting over the summer when they lost Mike D'Antoni, who coaches the most entertaining style of play in the NBA.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#2 » by NashtyNas » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:56 am

I remeber the same about a couple other guys. Steve Nash was not at all a highly touted prospect. Jose Calderon, same thing. I think this is closer to Jose though, because he's coming over from Europe. It took Calderon just over 2 seasons to prove what he had, but that was because he didn't get anywhere close to consistent minutes, and he blew on defense. So, with Terry Porter's youth movement (he LOVES developing young guys), I think Dragic will most likely pan out. Let's prove the nay-sayers wrong.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#3 » by rsavaj » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:12 am

I don't care much for Hollinger, but I respect Givony a lot, and his comments worry me.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#4 » by Sarlonus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:52 am

I do wonder why they like him so much. It does tell you they really want him when you consider how much money they have used to get him.

I think Igor Kokoskov is the guy that will be working with Dragic the most. I assume they speak the same language. I remember in the draft video Kokoskov talked with Dragic on the phone. He was speaking some kind of foreign language.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#5 » by tsherkin » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:53 am

Hollinger is over-reliant on stats, though he does offer some interesting points.

I question Dragic's ability to be a serious hounding defender at the NBA level because of athleticism, though his size is intriguing and Jason Kidd was never an especially hyper-athletic player and managed to do so anyway.

I dislike him as a half-court prospect because of his weak jumper and lack of a mid-range game, but as a transition sub, he's interesting.

The Suns have spent too much on this guy, it seems and yeah, Givony's comments are not encouraging.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#6 » by Sun Scorched » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:55 am

So Hollinger predicts Dragic will shoot 44% and this is a bad thing?

Listen, we can predict things and assume things, but in the end it comes down to the situations we put him into and the determination he has to put in the work he needs to.

You can list off draft pick horror stories left and right, but there are several stories on the opposite side the of the fence.

The crowd at the draft night boo-ed Dan Majerle... but you couldn't keep the guy down.

Raja Bell went undrafted and now he's an integral part of one of the best teams in the league.

Steve Nash was a small point guard out of Santa Clara University... if you had told people he would be a two-time MVP theyed have laughed in your face.

If Hollinger's stats had existed back then you'd be hearing the same story about all of these guys. It doesn't amount to anything and you simply cannot quantify heart and determination.

Don't buy into all of the doomsayers... Sportswriters get paid to criticize players, coaches and teams.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#7 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:08 am

As much as I hate the fact that people say we spent too much on the guy and that the guy won't perform, we cannot disregard the comments made by people like Givony and Hollinger. They do have a point.

Dragic defense seems to be based on his length and athleticism rather than positioning, technique and anticipation. You could compare it Barbosa's "defense." I can't say he's either better or worse than Barbosa since I haven't seen enough of him, but from the scout reports, his defense is one of his strengths so I'm hoping he'll perform better than expected. Whether his offensive games shows or not, I like the direction Kerr is taking us, with the signing of defensive guys like Barnes, Amundson and Dragic.

It comes down to this, if we don't look at how much we put in to get this guy, he should be a decent backup point. But all this fuss is not over whether he'll perform or not, it's about the costs of acquiring him. So, in that sense, I'm not too worried about his performance, I think he'll be solid, if not this season then in the next. Even if he doesn't give us what we want offensively, at least he can play defense. But I will admit we did overpay this guy, if not for his contract than for the buyout+ the costs to move up 3 spots in the draft.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#8 » by lebron4mvp » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:27 am

look all of ya getin worried about the kids OF he will be learning from nash you all seem to have forgot that point and i dont think he lacks OF.




if you watch his video from euro you can see the kid has skill's at getin to the basket and scorein he might not be refined yet but thats why he will be learning from nash
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#9 » by phx#7 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:38 am

lebron4mvp wrote:look all of ya getin worried about the kids OF he will be learning from nash you all seem to have forgot that point and i dont think he lacks OF.




if you watch his video from euro you can see the kid has skill's at getin to the basket and scorein he might not be refined yet but thats why he will be learning from nash


He'll be learning from Nash just like Banks, Barbosa and Strawberry. I'm not sure how much of what makes Nash great can be taught.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#10 » by Mr. Sun » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:18 am

Was Jonathan Givony impressed with Kobe Bryant in 1996?
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#11 » by ma_falaa_50 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:02 am

well givony also said that Batum was going to be a lottery pick. The thing is this, its either the suns are wrong or the critics are wrong. The critics said Robin lopez was a stretch at number 15 but somehow he found his way into the olympic practice team of which included the endorsement of Carlos Boozer ( who know the guy that outrebounds the suns frontcourt by himself). Could they be wrong about Dragic too? Fact is the draft is all about potential. Does there draft place really matter when it comes to reaching that potential? look no further than Amare, Mike Redd, LB, TP, Manu, Steve Nash, Rodney Stuckey etc.. I know amare was drafted in the lottery but there were 7 teams that passed on him. On draft night ppl were talking about Nene than Amare and how did that pan out?

there is a more than good chance this Kid could just be a frindge starter and there is also a chance this kid can complement amare, Lb and Boris- Only time will tell.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#12 » by suns12345 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:13 am

i think you can never tell.

just on the article though about his euro stats conversion... u never know.... he might be better suited to the nba. u just cant tell these things no matter how sure u r.

i know its the boring answer but we just have to sit and wait and see what happens
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#13 » by tsherkin » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:02 pm

Hollinger's Euro-conversion stuff should certainly be taken with a grain of salt and they aren't much of a substitute for hands-on observation of the player... but hands-on observation of the player is also troublesome because he played in a totally different league with dramatically different physical baselines and different court alignments, as well as different strategems based on the differences in rules and the design of the court.

The one constant that remains true is that he's a very weak shooter and that's a problem for a team that relies as heavily on the sidescreen and midscreen plays as often as do the Suns. He certainly has the ability to develop that but, for example, Nash had that shot even as a rookie. It's worth mentioning that the one season in his career that he shot under 40.3% from downtown, he cranked out 37.4%, which is still pretty good. Nash could always shoot...

And that's something that Dragic doesn't have. He's going to be a very different style of player, which means the Suns aren't likely to want to run Diaw or Hill alongside him, they're going to need to run Bell/Barbosa at the 2 and then a wing who can stick the three (Barnes, maybe, if he proves that he can shoot it at a high percentage, undersized or not). That's not necessarily so bad but it does limit options; Hill is a good secondary ball-handler, rebounder and mid-range scorer.

And of course, because he's 6'4, there is the option of letting Dragic guard some 2s and running an undersized 2-guard at the "1" spot for a really awesome three-point shot. For example, Dragic would do well alongside Ben Gordon, pipedream as that is.

As an unproven player, prediction is obviously difficult... but that he slipped to the second round is USUALLY a good sign that he's not going to be a lot of anything.

For reference, let's have a look at the 2nd round picks from the 2000 draft forward; the following players during that time period became noteworthy NBA players out of the 240-ish second round picks since then (not counting the '08 draft obviously):

2000: Marko Jaric, Eddie House, Eduardo Najera, Michael Redd, Brian Cardinal
2001: Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Earl Watson, Bobby Simmons
2002: Dan Gadzuric, Carlos Boozer, Juan Carlos Navarro, Ronald Murray, Matt Barnes, Darius Songaila, Rasual Butler, Luis Scola
2003: Jason Kapono, Luke Walton, Steve Blake, Willie Green, Zaur Pachulia, Keith Bogans, Matt Bonner, Kyle Korver
2004: Anderson Varejao, Chris Duhon, Trevor Ariza
2005: Monta Ellis, (Louis Williams), Andray Blatche
2006: Craig Smith, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap, Leon Powe
2007*: Carl Landry, DJ Strawberry, (Ramon Sessions), (Marc Gasol has potential)

It's a wee-bit early to really rule on anything from the '07 draft and theoretically, the Raptors drafted Roko Leni-Ukic in '06 and he looks like he could potentially be a significant contributor.

The theme here, however, is that the second round has produced about 3 good players the last few years and while in earlier years it produced many more, what's conspicuously absent from this group?

An abundance of good point guards. Of the 36 non-bracketed players, there are TWO point guards (Steve Blake and Juan Carlos Navarro). Navarro was All-Rookie 2nd Team and then bolted to a 5-year deal with his old Spanish team.

So we're looking at a roughly 0.8% sucess rate in terms of PGs who developed into good NBA players, in a raw manner of speaking. It is not common to get good pass-first point guards out of the second round because point guards are at such a premium. Of course, his buyout and international status, his abject lack of consistent shooting ability or range, these are all things that make him fairly uncompelling as a first-round prospect but that's precisely my point:

Dragic is a (comparatively) cheap gamble that does not have a good statistical chance to succeed. The Suns spent too much money in their attempt to get him in the hopes that he can be better for them than what they already have and I really don't see why that would be.

Scouting reports are talking about this guy as a good defender, that's promising. They're also talking about limited court vision and playmaking creativity... and a fairly awful jumper. Euroleague defenders just back off of him and it stymies him.

Who does that sound like?

That sounds like a shorter, less athletic version of DJ Strawberry.

So why did we even bother with Dragic at all? Because he's Slovenian instead of American?

Strawberry's an inch taller, was the best athlete in his draft class, is a PROVEN defender and has been successful in improving his shot (and continues to work at it).

Dragic is redundant and a minutes-buster for someone who deserves it more. I don't see the value.

EDIT: Again, every scouting report talks about his limited playmaking, how he's more of a drive-and-dish guy and a transition scorer. Those are both helpful attributes, but lacking the ability to be an effective halfcourt player through the pick-and-roll and set offenses is a fairly critical flaw for him, especially on the Suns. Suddenly, Amare has to rely considerably more on isolations and catch-in-motion plays instead of his staple pick-and-roll. Teams will figure out that Dragic can't shoot and will slip the screen to stay on Amare EVERY time, leaving Dragic to take low-percentage jumpers.

That's BAD for Phoenix's offense.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#14 » by rsavaj » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:04 pm

Yeah, sounds like he's duplicating Strawberry.

Gah, I need preseason to start so we can see him in action.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#15 » by scootfu602 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:21 pm

I hate to speculate on the kid. Hope he is worth the hype though
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#16 » by rsavaj » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:51 pm

At the very least, we have another piece to a "PG By Committee" backup: Dragic, Strawberry, Barbosa, Diaw, Hill, Barnes. With those guys on the floor, the offense shouldn't lag too much.....I hope.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#17 » by JohnVancouver » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:52 pm

For reference, let's have a look at the 2nd round picks from the 2000 draft forward; the following players during that time period became noteworthy NBA players out of the 240-ish second round picks since then (not counting the '08 draft obviously):

2000: Marko Jaric, Eddie House, Eduardo Najera, Michael Redd, Brian Cardinal
2001: Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Earl Watson, Bobby Simmons
2002: Dan Gadzuric, Carlos Boozer, Juan Carlos Navarro, Ronald Murray, Matt Barnes, Darius Songaila, Rasual Butler, Luis Scola
2003: Jason Kapono, Luke Walton, Steve Blake, Willie Green, Zaur Pachulia, Keith Bogans, Matt Bonner, Kyle Korver
2004: Anderson Varejao, Chris Duhon, Trevor Ariza
2005: Monta Ellis, (Louis Williams), Andray Blatche
2006: Craig Smith, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap, Leon Powe
2007*: Carl Landry, DJ Strawberry, (Ramon Sessions), (Marc Gasol has potential)

--- I can see a number of people we'd have been happy to pick up in the second round - Okhur, Ellis, Powe, Millsap, Scola, Korver, Ariza - some solid guys there
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#18 » by suns12345 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:47 pm

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... s0819.html

something about dragic not signing till september due to financial obligation with tau
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#19 » by Rasho Brezec » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:48 pm

I just hope people don't think he's the second coming of Tony Parker, like Kerr does. I still think he'd be better off staying with Tau Ceramica this season, and that was what he wanted, too, but on the other hand, his game suits NBA better than Euroleague. And yes, he doesn't have the best jumpshot, but he's not Rondo-like: if teams leave him wide open, he's perfectly capable of hiting the jumper. His 3pt percentage in Adriatic league last season was 47.1% on 70 attempts.

My biggest concern is that he will fold under the pressure of living up to the expectations of Suns FO. I've watched a majority of the games Dragic played in last year and I honestly thought Kerr was high when he was so excited that they were able to draft him in the 2nd round. Prior to hearing how some teams were interested in him, I didn't even think he would get drafted.
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Re: ESPN:Diamond ... or Rough? Suns Unearth Something in Dragic 

Post#20 » by tsherkin » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:25 am

JohnVancouver wrote:--- I can see a number of people we'd have been happy to pick up in the second round - Okhur, Ellis, Powe, Millsap, Scola, Korver, Ariza - some solid guys there


Then you've missed the point; yes there are good players to be found in the second round but there aren't that many good point guards that come out in the second round. There were a couple of average ones, but Navarro is gone and wasn't THAT great... and he was a good shooter. And Blake was a classic point guard with good shooting ability.

Dragic isn't a shooter by any stretch of the imagination and he's not even a classic point guard with great court vision. He's a drive-and-dish PG with no jumper, hence my hesitation to call the expenditure of all that effort and money to get him a positive thing.

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