Phelps or Bolt

[MaxRider]

Bolt

if Phelps can do it without the new swimsuit then Phelps

[tkb]

Personally I'd say Phelps without any question. What he did was just mind boggling. Bolt beating the WR in the way he did was certainly a sick, sick performance, but Phelps kinda did the same thing. Seven times ("only" OR on one of the gold medals). New swimsuits were equal for everyone that competed, but Phelps destroyed them all regardless.

[dougthonus]

You can argue that since almost everyone is wearing it at Beijing, that its an even field, but since Phelps as everyone keeps saying is a freak of nature, its not a stretch to say that his body can perhaps take advantage of the LZR suit slightly more than other swimmers. :

Actually given that Phelps is faster than everyone else, technology which speeds up the race hinders him more than other swimmers. If the race was slower his natural ability would be more important and craft a greater advantage. Not only is it a stretch to say his body takes advantage of the new suit more, but in actuality the exact opposite of that would be happening. Not that the difference is likely to be significant one way or the other. I don't think it is. However, Phelps edge vs the other swimmers would be even greater in a slower pool with slower suits. The more time spent swimming the less likely it is for anyone to beat him.

[Joker]

Personally I'd say Phelps without any question. What he did was just mind boggling. Bolt beating the WR in the way he did was certainly a sick, sick performance, but Phelps kinda did the same thing. Seven times ("only" OR on one of the gold medals). New swimsuits were equal for everyone that competed, but Phelps destroyed them all regardless.

1972 - aquatics - Mark Spitz - USA - 7 gold medals
1988 - aquatics - Kristin Otto - East Germany - 6 gold medals

How is 8 gold medals mind boggling when two other swimmers have won 6+ gold medals at a single Olympics over the span of the past 9 Olympics? If history is any indication, within the next 3 or 4 Olympics, another swimmer is going to probably go for another 6-8 golds.

edit: and it should be noted that Phelps was about a combined 2 inches from winning just 6 gold medals.

-AND-

There was no such thing as the 50 m freestyle back in Spitz's time. Considering he won gold in the 100 m and 200 m freestyle events, I'm guessing he would've been a huge favorite to win the 50 m as well, and today we'd be talking about how Phelps TIED Spitz's record.

[SportsWorld]

Bolt

if Phelps can do it without the new swimsuit then Phelps

Again you realize the rest of the field used the same swimsuit as Phelps?

[dacher]

If Phelps' records still stand in 20 years I say Phelps.
If Bolt's records still stand in 20 years I say Bolt.

Ask me again in 20 years.

Hey, I just noticed appropriate grfx doodads -->

[MaxRider]

Bolt

if Phelps can do it without the new swimsuit then Phelps

Again you realize the rest of the field used the same swimsuit as Phelps?

not everyone is wearing the new Speedo LZR Racer
some are still wearing the old 2004 version
some can't wear the new suit because of sponsor contract

[Al n' Perk No Layups!]

And there you go, many swimmers have won multiple medals. Its been done before.

So have many Track and Field athletes.

Its not like the next closest to Phelps has only two or three golds.

It's not like the next closest to Bolt has run 10 seconds.

You show it above that at least a few people who are just a few off and Mark Spitz who did it years ago only has one less.

One gold medal is a huge difference, one gold medal is more than most athletes will ever get, and it's not at least a few people, it's a few people period.

This is a massive accomplishment, it's not an American media invention. Did you not see the IOC present Phelps with a plaque commemorating the eight golds as he was on the podium? Obviously they think it's pretty huge. I haven't seen Bolt get a plaque for "jogging."

Also referring to the 'lion share' comment, did you read my posts in this thread? I NEVER said a single swimmer, I said a handful of elite swimmers at each olympics end up taking the lion's share of medals which is true. Just look at the standings for this olympics. Between the US and Australia alone, they've split just about half the medals up for grabs in the pool. And they have taken OVER HALF of the gold medals available. So do you still mean to tell me that that's not the few dominating the many?

So now you're comparing two countries with over a combined 323 million people to one athlete and that's proving how run of the mill eight golds for Phelps is? Are you freaking serious?!?!

That's not the few dominating the many, that's two countries dominating the events. Kinda like Jamaica and the US have dominated the sprints in the last few Olympics, or how Russia, Romania, the US and China have dominated gymnastics forever. Comparing countries to athletes is absolutely ridiculous.

No I'm saying Bailey's record HASN'T been broken in three olympics and 12 years which is TRUE. Again did you read my previous posts? I said no one has beaten Bailey's olympic record until Bolt did. When watching the 100m finals race, did you not see the 9.86 OR listed in the corner of your screen?

So you are saying it hasn't been broken in three Olympics (don't say "and twelve years" because that makes it seem like you're including non Olympic events)?

I can't find a list of Olympic record progression, so I don't know. But since the WR is obviously more important, I think I proved my point with the prior post.

If you put up a poll to ask the world whether they thought Bolt shut it down or not, I bet you the majority will say yes he did shut it down. If you asked any former athlete and track expert, they will all tell you that Bolt shut it down. Even the day after and today track commentators/athletes from different networks were still wondering why he shut it down rather than run full out and celebrate after he crossed the finish line.

Funny, we have track athlete posting on this thread. He says Bolt didn't jog in.

Here's the problem with your thinking. Bolt didn't jog, he simply let off the gas. It's like driving a car, when you are going 40 mph and you take your foot off the gas pedal, you are still going to be going 40 mph for a good distance. Bolt did the same thing, he's not the only athlete to let off the gas in the last 15 meters, it's pretty common. The only difference is Bolt throwing his arms out.

Ato Bolton on NBC, a man who ran against Bailey in 1996 in the 100m was continually chastising Bolt about his showboating before crossing the finish line while he was in the NBC booth today doing commentary for the 200m that Bolt was running in. As an athlete who ran in the olympics, are you telling me that his view that Bolt shut it down is colored and incorrect and your view of the race is right? Are you telling me that Michael Johnson and Bailey's views of the race were also wrong too? Absolute no news outlet or TV network or track expert or former athlete that I've seen so far has said 'Oh that Bolt didn't really shut it down'. If you can find me any expert/athlete/TV network or anything at all that says that, then tell me where. You can't can you? Yet you're still somehow right in your assessment of his race? Uhh ok. lol

I've already brought this up, Ato Boldin is the color commentator. He is hyping it, the same way every color commentator doing a great game says it's the greatest game ever played.

Again, I haven't seen his record even discussed since the day after the event. You having track athletes claiming it's the story of the Olympics is the same as having Female basketball players and analysts making a huge fuss over Candice Parker's dunk a few years back. Those people are going to try and draw attention to their sport. Every record breaking race is "the most amazing thing ever."

And this is part of the reason why its not as impressive as Bolt's WR run. Because getting 8 gold was not a far fetched goal. It was definitely an attainable goal. Even before the olympics began, experts pegged Phelps as having a good shot at 8 golds. So while its a great accomplishment, its as you said expected.

Getting eight gold is a pretty far fetched goal, unless you want to point out the other eight time gold medalists in a single olympics.

Now before the olympics, if you asked if Bolt could win the 100m and break the existing WR, I'm sure you'll find a fair number of track people that would have said yes. But if you asked them if Bolt could do it while jogging the last 20m or so to the finish line, everyone would have laughed in your face. In otherwards, no one would believe that was possible until they actually saw it themselves. This is why to me what Bolt did was so amazing. No one on the planet could have fathomed that such a thing could be done, unlike the Phelps 8 golds.

You'd find a lot of track people who said yes, because he already had the record. He was the favorite. But no you wouldn't find anyone who would expect him to jog to the finish, because he didn't. Seriously, do you even know what jogging is?

Others are usually more specific, defining jogging as running slower than 6mph (10 minute per mile pace, 10 km/h, 6 min/km).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogging

Again, I'm not saying Bolt is the better olympian than Phelps at this stage, but I'm definitely saying that 9.69 in a jog trumps 8 golds.

Which I just can't see. Track records get broken more frequently than the record for most golds in a single olympics. But if you believe that so be it, just don't try an minimize what Phelps did.

How do you know that? Are you telling me in the history of swimming, no one else's goggles have broken during a race? Phelps just happened to be swimming for the gold, but that doesn't mean other lesser known swimmers haven't swam for gold with busted goggles before. Also you even said yourself its no big deal, and here you are saying it is a big deal again.

You said "every swimmer deals with that" which isn't true. Don't pretend you said something else. Some swimmer somewhere has probably had that happen, but none of Phelps competition had that problem, end of story.

As to Bolt not shutting it down and coasting. See above. Olympic athletes who have ran the 100m have said he has shut it down and yet people are supposed to believe you over those athletes who have actually ran on the world's grandest stage? Ok there.

An olympic athlete who was the color commentator said that, I've already discussed that. I haven't heard that since. You claimed he jogged in, but we have a sprinter in this thread that is disagreeing. I'll take his opinion over yours, but I'm sure you know more about sprinting than him.

Wind aided runs don't count towards a record or have you not heard that before? If that's the case, then why don't you add steroid and doping sprinters who have ran insane times before too?

Yeah I did know that, which is why I SAID "it didn't count because of a 4.1 m/s tailwind. Guess what, winning 7 golds doesn't count as winning eight golds. Or have you not heard of counting?

And talking about having things to aid an athlete, how convieniently it is for you to not mentioned that Phelps had the LZR suit to help him swim. If he doesn't wear it, he doesn't get that .01 edge against Cavic and he doesn't get 8 gold and he only ties Spitz and all of a sudden the picture for Phelps changes abit. You can argue that since almost everyone is wearing it at Beijing, that its an even field, but since Phelps as everyone keeps saying is a freak of nature, its not a stretch to say that his body can perhaps take advantage of the LZR suit slightly more than other swimmers. At least certainly enough to get that .01 second that gave him that extra gold.

Considering Cavic was wearing the suit, no it clearly wasn't what gave him the .01 edge. Also considering that Phelps still swam half of his finals without the full body suit, also kinda negates what you're insinuating. The LZR wouldn't give him an advantage over the other swimmers, because the other swimmers had the suit.

It's also massively ignorant to say that adding that suit gives Phelps natural skills gave him an extra advantage with the addition of the suit that he didn't have before. It actually decreases his advantage, it shorten's the time of the race giving him less time to do what he does best, pull away down the stretch.

And talking about world records, let's say a fast track equals a fast pool and that both athletes are dope free. That still leaves Phelps with the LZR suit to aid him in swimming, while Bolt has nothing, unless you're going to tell me that Bolt's shoes are equal to a +4 tailwind? So while all of Phelps' world records in Beijing are LZR suit enhanced, Bolt broke the 100m WR with room to go even faster and destroyed the field pretty much on his on merit. But let us not speak about this right?

Again, see above. Phelps was swimming bare upper body in half his finals. You're also ignoring that Phelps had most of these records BEFORE the Olympics and the invention of the LZR and the techie pool.

[Al n' Perk No Layups!]

^^Dude give it a rest. People have their opinions, obviously no one is going to change their minds. This question has been beaten to death.

It's not about whether he thinks Bolt is more impressive, i'm fine with that. It's about him minimizing what Phelps has done and acting like it's a ho-hum accomplishment.

[Al n' Perk No Layups!]

How is 8 gold medals mind boggling when two other swimmers have won 6+ gold medals at a single Olympics over the span of the past 9 Olympics? If history is any indication, within the next 3 or 4 Olympics, another swimmer is going to probably go for another 6-8 golds.

How is 9.69 mind boggling when Asafa Powell was five hundreths behind Bolt. The record has been broken or tied six times in the last nine years and five in the last three. If history is any indication, the record will probably be broken in the next two years.

It is totally unfair to pretend that what Phelps accomplished is easy.

There was no such thing as the 50 m freestyle back in Spitz's time. Considering he won gold in the 100 m and 200 m freestyle events, I'm guessing he would've been a huge favorite to win the 50 m as well, and today we'd be talking about how Phelps TIED Spitz's record.

Or how Phelps just went for and won nine golds.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Didn't read through the whole thread, just want to add a few comments:
- I didn't like how Phelps didn't focus on freestyle more. He dominated the 200m, why wasn't he in the 400m and in the 100m? I would have been much more impressed if he just won those three races. He was clearly going for the record # of golds, that's the reason. As much as it's a fantastic achievement of consistency, imho only freestyle competition is really meaningful.
- Phelps hasn't been helped by these new technologies. Every athlete in both t&f and swimming has to compete against his peers and all the guys before him, but with those brilliant innovations they just took away the second part: who really cares about WR, now that they're crushed every time?
- the problem with t&f is that training for some events is going to be counterproductive for others. long jumping is compatible with 100m, because it requires similar abilities, but it's a totally different sport. 100m and 200m aren't the same but you can do both, almost like with 200m and 400m, where the difference is wider. 100m and 400m actually do require a different approach as far as training, so winning both is just insane, you need to be so much better than everybody else than you can sacrifice a little in both and still win. 800m is just another sport, but nobody will ever touch Pistorius in London if he tries. 110 hurdles I don't know well enough how they train to tell
- Bolt was more of a wow factor, for sure. Phelps will be remembered forever but not having dominated freestyle I think his achievements mean a little less.

[captain_cheapseats]

If you put up a poll to ask the world whether they thought Bolt shut it down or not, I bet you the majority will say yes he did shut it down. If you asked any former athlete and track expert, they will all tell you that Bolt shut it down. Even the day after and today track commentators/athletes from different networks were still wondering why he shut it down rather than run full out and celebrate after he crossed the finish line.

Funny, we have track athlete posting on this thread. He says Bolt didn't jog in.

Here's the problem with your thinking. Bolt didn't jog, he simply let off the gas. It's like driving a car, when you are going 40 mph and you take your foot off the gas pedal, you are still going to be going 40 mph for a good distance. Bolt did the same thing, he's not the only athlete to let off the gas in the last 15 meters, it's pretty common. The only difference is Bolt throwing his arms out.

The word "jog" wasn't used a single time in the quoted material that you responded to. Just so you're aware, this attempt to seize on GQstylin's use of the word "jog" earlier in this thread to play a semantics game rather than address his actual point is incredibly transparent.

And yes, the track expert posting in this thread did say that Bolt didn't jog. But he also said that Bolt certainly shut it down early, and probably would have run a sub 9.6 if he had actually gone all out.

[captain_cheapseats]

As for me, I'll take Bolt. There's a good argument for both, but to me being the fastest person in the world trumps being the world's best swimmer. I've never seen a more dominant olympic performance than Bolt's overall effort in the 100m -- I'd rank it as the second most dominant individual sport performance that I've seen (trailing only Tiger's Open win at Pebble Beach) -- and I personally give that a 'bit more weight than Phelp's astonishing consistency/versatility. But really you can't lose either way, both guys are very, very impressive.

[galeon110]

Phelps went a perfect gold medal 8 for 8... He's been 100% gold during these games. 9.67, yea impressive, but when compared to Phelp's perfect record, it's nothing. Are you kidding me? Phelps was on such a hot streak, I'd bet even the other swimmers were intimidated, to the point where they knew who was gonna win the race before it even started.

[Joker]

Phelps went a perfect gold medal 8 for 8... He's been 100% gold during these games. 9.67, yea impressive, but when compared to Phelp's perfect record, it's nothing. Are you kidding me? Phelps was on such a hot streak, I'd bet even the other swimmers were intimidated, to the point where they knew who was gonna win the race before it even started.

You can look at it as phelps going a perfect 8 for 8, or you can look at it as there being 17 men's swimming events, and Phelps picking the 8 that he was best at and would give him the best shot at securing a gold medal.

[Doctor MJ]

Didn't read through the whole thread, just want to add a few comments:
- I didn't like how Phelps didn't focus on freestyle more. He dominated the 200m, why wasn't he in the 400m and in the 100m? I would have been much more impressed if he just won those three races. He was clearly going for the record # of golds, that's the reason. As much as it's a fantastic achievement of consistency, imho only freestyle competition is really meaningful.

Hmm. I would have thought that basically every Olympian around was trying to maximize their performance with respect to medals. Hard for me to fault him for it.

I do wish though that there was enough time so that the best athlete at each race truly won. It does seem like a shame that athletes have to sacrifice events, and that others win medals simply because superior talents had booked schedules.

[Doctor MJ]

You can look at it as phelps going a perfect 8 for 8, or you can look at it as there being 17 men's swimming events, and Phelps picking the 8 that he was best at and would give him the best shot at securing a gold medal.

Agreed. The "perfect" aspect of what Phelps did is not particularly important.

[Muzzleshot]

1972 - aquatics - Mark Spitz - USA - 7 gold medals
1988 - aquatics - Kristin Otto - East Germany - 6 gold medals

How is 8 gold medals mind boggling when two other swimmers have won 6+ gold medals at a single Olympics over the span of the past 9 Olympics? If history is any indication, within the next 3 or 4 Olympics, another swimmer is going to probably go for another 6-8 golds.

edit: and it should be noted that Phelps was about a combined 2 inches from winning just 6 gold medals.

-AND-

There was no such thing as the 50 m freestyle back in Spitz's time. Considering he won gold in the 100 m and 200 m freestyle events, I'm guessing he would've been a huge favorite to win the 50 m as well, and today we'd be talking about how Phelps TIED Spitz's record.

I would have use your same argument to prove that it is mind boggling. You list two swimmers who haven't even won eight medals (Spitz 7, Otto 6) in one Olympics over a 36 year stretch and that somehow diminishes the accomplishment?

It's my understanding that the Olympic committee will not have "You only won this medal by 1 inch" printed on the back of two of his gold medals. Cut the crap, the guy won 8 gold medals.

Even Mark Spitz has stated that Phelps had a more difficult Olympics since Spitz was only involved in 4 individual races in 72, while Phelps participated in 6 individual races.

[The Duke]

First of all the term jog, is a bit off... but he did de-acellerate in the closeing 20meters. On top of that he could have prolly accellerated even more. Its natural for ones accelleration to keep increasing up till around the end of the race of the 100m. Thats why the 200m is a faster race per meter, they "make up" up for the slow start, with ever meter above the opening 100meter. Its widly known that the fastest part of the 200m is just after the bend, coming home on the remaining straight.

Personally, the Freestyle is the stroke that he MOST meaningful. And Phelphs only competed in the 200meters and relay. Jason Lezack is the fastest American swimmer. There are MANY more swimmers who are actually faster then Phelps.

Bolt is competing in the 100m , 200m and relay.

I wonder how fast Phelphs would actually be in an open water event, where he cant use his advantage turn off the wall, and the racepurely be a sprint freestyle event... he mite not take the 200m free under that senario.

[TheGlyde]

First of all the term jog, is a bit off... but he did de-acellerate in the closeing 20meters. On top of that he could have prolly accellerated even more. Its natural for ones accelleration to keep increasing up till around the end of the race of the 100m. Thats why the 200m is a faster race per meter, they "make up" up for the slow start, with ever meter above the opening 100meter. Its widly known that the fastest part of the 200m is just after the bend, coming home on the remaining straight.

This isn't true.

The only person reported in history to still be accelerating through the 100m mark is flo-jo... and... well theres a few asterisks on her performances.

The 200m is faster per metre simply because of the running start for the 2nd 100m, when he set his WR, MJ ran 10.2 for his first 100m out of blocks and 9.1 up the straight with a running start.

No male I'm aware of has still been accelerating past the 70-75m mark in the 100m.