Amare Stoudemire

[Duiz]

Honestly people are stupid if they think Amare is ok in D. He absolutely sucks at defending.

Don't let obinna hear that... You might break his feelings.

[ChargerMan]

oh they definitely threw the double team at duncan, when they realized manu couldn't drive as well. Gasol in game 1 was trying to play the defensive anchor role while still manning up Duncan, even good defense against Duncan will yield D man some good stats. Amare can't guard any good PF in the league.

[celticspierce34]

I've been seeing alot of people dissing Amare on this board (some going as far as to call him overrated).

First, Amare's bad defense is exaggerated.
1. Playing out of position at center for most of the year
2. He has horrible perimeter defenders in front of him (Steve Nash, Barbosa, etc.)
3. I truly believe Mike D'Antoni told him to relax on defense so he could a) not give up fouls b) save energy for offense (especially against Duncan)
4. Sad as it may seem with Marion gone he might be the best defensive starter (Raja Bell isn't that good)
5. I admit he does suck on pick and roll and he isn't consistent
6. Who would you rather have on defense Dirk or Amare?

Offensively, no post player in the NBA is more productive or unstoppable than Amare.
1. Good midrange
2. Runs the floor
3. Well versed in the pick and roll
4. Loves to finish
5. Puts the ball on the floor
6. Can play back to the basket (still needs to work on this)
7. Shoots a good FT%
8. Very quick for his size

Amare is no worse than a top 5 PF IMO. I seriously can't see where the overrated talk is coming from. Would like to hear what you guys think.

ooo.....how dare they

[DynastySS]

If you are going by those numbers you posted (which I have seen numerous times, you aren't showing anything new), Tim Duncan has no effect on the Spurs defense and neither does Steve Nash. Also Dwight Howard has a negative effect on Orlando's defense. All these notions are false. If you are going to post a stat at least know what it means. You just showed be the equivalent of +/-, except using ratings instead of points.

You should also know that given the amount of minutes these superstars play this method is not as effective because you are comparing numbers over 2 VERY different periods of time.

Furthermore, anyone who knows about statistical analysis realizes that the individual defensive ratings are very inexact compared to individual offensive ratings.

Before you post stats I suggest you do some reading on the subject. If you need me to point you in the right direction feel free to ask.

Nice try though.

You aren't keen on reading, are you? I am almost scared to know what this "good" college you go to is.

It is pretty clear you do not understand the meaning of this statistic. It is a measure of how well the man YOU are guarding shoots. It is not how well the entire team shoots, or how the entire team defense fairs when you are on or off the court. Simply a matter how well the man you are defending shoots.

Dwight Howard does not have a negative impact on the entire team's defense. He is a great help side and team defender, but as many know, he is not as strong a man to man defender. This stat is indicative of such. When he is off the floor, centers shoot a lower percentage. Why is this? Because he is not as strong a man to man defender as his back up, Adonal Foyle. That isn't to say Dwight Howard is a defensive black hole, it just shows that his team defense is better than his man to man defense.


Now back to the lesson at hand. Dirk holds his match up to a 2% lower shooting clip than Amare does. Also, Amare gave up over 300 more points over the season. Compound that with the fact Dirk averages 3 more minutes a game (a solid refutation to your claim on minute disparity) and it is not hard to see Dirk is a better man to man defender. Well, that shouldn't be a shocker anyway. 10 pages of posters all see this, but you. Shouldn't that be somewhat alarming?

Nice try though kid, better luck next time.

[Don Draper]

mmmmmm i thought you were pointing out a grammar issue. anyway, calling people names like idiot has no place in a discussion after someone has stated their opinion, especially when it is the general consensus.

Since apparently the overwhelming amount of stats don't exactly serve as proof for you, is there really any practical way for people to prove to you that Amare is a horrid defender? Youre asking people to show you in a way that numbers and letters cannot, and i just don't know if anyone would even waste their time finding and making a video of Amare's defensive blunders, so what exactly do you want? Please explain to this board how we can hold your hand out of the darkness of ignorance.

I suggest that you watch some phx games this year. When Kwame was on the lakers i would get excited when he touched the ball against Amare. Yes, Kwame Freaking Brown. Amare is just that bad.

I think we have established the fact that you can't read. if you don't know what I said and what context it was in then please stop posting this nonsense.

The problem with many of you when you try to attack people is that you don't read what people write and why they write it.

1) 1st of all I told andykeikei to read my post so he wouldn't look like an idiot by accusing me of using two Amare pictures to prove he was a good defender (when in fact I was just showing Throwback24 that him posted 2 pictures of Dirk playing defense didn't mean anything - which was pretty obvious)
2) Don't worry about me and let the mods do their job

Overwhelming amount of stats? As a person who appreciates the usefulness of stats, I would welcome any statistical evidence that supports anyone's claims. But at the same time, i am no fool and due the READING I have done on the subject I know that individual defensive statistics are very inexact. So because uninformed posters are copy and pasting stats from box scores and 82games.com I am supposed to believe that it proves their point? Get real.

Thowback24 presented stats from a boxscore where he looked at every big man that had a good game vs. the suns and said Amare was guarding them. Was he probably guard some of them? Most likely. All of them? Possibly. Does the evidence he presented prove this? No.

DyanstySS showed on court and off court defensive ratings. What the problem with this? It is basically +/- with defensive rating. Like I said before this proves nothing because if he were to look at the numbers of other players the results are laughable (Dwight Howard makes the Orlando defense worse; Tim Duncan has no effect of the SA defense). Furthermore, because of the minutes per game these players play the sample sizes of minutes are disproportionate (ie. comparing a defensive rating over 37 min compared to a defensive rating over 11 min)

[Don Draper]

DyanstySS:

Do you not see the big ON COURT and OFF COURT on the top of the table? Do you? Were does any of those stats say while guarding an opponent?

You know what I'm just going to email the guys at 82games.com and just ask them what it means. This will clear it up.

[tnayrbrocks]

mmmmmm i thought you were pointing out a grammar issue. anyway, calling people names like idiot has no place in a discussion after someone has stated their opinion, especially when it is the general consensus.

Since apparently the overwhelming amount of stats don't exactly serve as proof for you, is there really any practical way for people to prove to you that Amare is a horrid defender? Youre asking people to show you in a way that numbers and letters cannot, and i just don't know if anyone would even waste their time finding and making a video of Amare's defensive blunders, so what exactly do you want? Please explain to this board how we can hold your hand out of the darkness of ignorance.

I suggest that you watch some phx games this year. When Kwame was on the lakers i would get excited when he touched the ball against Amare. Yes, Kwame Freaking Brown. Amare is just that bad.

I think we have established the fact that you can't read. if you don't know what I said and what context it was in then please stop posting this nonsense.

The problem with many of you when you try to attack people is that you don't read what people write and why they write it.

1) 1st of all I told andykeikei to read my post so he wouldn't look like an idiot by accusing me of using two Amare pictures to prove he was a good defender (when in fact I was just showing Throwback24 that him posted 2 pictures of Dirk playing defense didn't mean anything - which was pretty obvious)
2) Don't worry about me and let the mods do their job

Overwhelming amount of stats? As a person who appreciates the usefulness of stats, I would welcome any statistical evidence that supports anyone's claims. But at the same time, i am no fool and due the READING I have done on the subject I know that individual defensive statistics are very inexact. So because uninformed posters are copy and pasting stats from box scores and 82games.com I am supposed to believe that it proves their point? Get real.

Thowback24 presented stats from a boxscore where he looked at every big man that had a good game vs. the suns and said Amare was guarding them. Was he probably guard some of them? Most likely. All of them? Possibly. Does the evidence he presented prove this? No.

DyanstySS showed on court and off court defensive ratings. What the problem with this? It is basically +/- with defensive rating. Like I said before this proves nothing because if he were to look at the numbers of other players the results are laughable (Dwight Howard makes the Orlando defense worse; Tim Duncan has no effect of the SA defense). Furthermore, because of the minutes per game these players play the sample sizes of minutes are disproportionate (ie. comparing a defensive rating over 37 min compared to a defensive rating over 11 min)

O yes, i am completely illiterate. Thank you for establishing this for me. So you do admit to attacking people who don't agree with you, and put up at least in to your standards insufficient evidence. Again, this shouldn't be happening but i'll stop with the lecturing and let the mods do their jobs.

Again, if stats aren't gonna do it for you what exactly are you looking for? Even suns fans say that Amare is horrid on D yet that isn't enough for you. It's funny how you're quick to say that i can't read. anyway, this will be my last post on this thread, as it is very difficult for me to deal with ignorance. sorry, maybe next time.

[DynastySS]

DyanstySS:

Do you not see the big ON COURT and OFF COURT on the top of the table? Do you? Were does any of those stats say while guarding an opponent?

You know what I'm just going to email the guys at 82games.com and just ask them what it means. This will clear it up.

Curious to see what they have to say.

Regardless, you do realize you lose either way right? Even if it is team defense in terms of on and off court production, the stats show that the defense is vastly improved with Amare off it. Dallas' defense stays the same with or without Dirk.

Facts don't lie. Either Dirk holds his opponents to a lower percentage than Amare, or Amare is just a lead anchor to the already inferior Phoenix defensive team.

[DynastySS]

DyanstySS showed on court and off court defensive ratings. What the problem with this? It is basically +/- with defensive rating. Like I said before this proves nothing because if he were to look at the numbers of other players the results are laughable (Dwight Howard makes the Orlando defense worse; Tim Duncan has no effect of the SA defense). Furthermore, because of the minutes per game these players play the sample sizes of minutes are disproportionate (ie. comparing a defensive rating over 37 min compared to a defensive rating over 11 min)

What is so hard to understand about this? Foyle is a better defender than Howard. Why wouldn't the team defense be better with him on the floor? Sure, he can't score like D12 so the overall +/- will take a hit, but you can't deny Foyle's defensive tenacity.

Also, Tim Duncan is one of the cogs to a defensive machine. He has formidable back ups, but more importantly, a team defense concept that does not allow for major slipups when a pivotal piece like Duncan leaves the game.

[BubbaTee]

Man defender - Dirk
Help defender - Amare

Scorer - Amare
Offensive versatility - Dirk

As good as TD and KG - Neither
Top 5 PF - Both

[Don Draper]

O yes, i am completely illiterate. Thank you for establishing this for me. So you do admit to attacking people who don't agree with you, and put up at least in to your standards insufficient evidence. Again, this shouldn't be happening but i'll stop with the lecturing and let the mods do their jobs.

Again, if stats aren't gonna do it for you what exactly are you looking for? Even suns fans say that Amare is horrid on D yet that isn't enough for you. It's funny how you're quick to say that i can't read. anyway, this will be my last post on this thread, as it is very difficult for me to deal with ignorance. sorry, maybe next time.

You have yet to show me where I attacked anyone...
Again, if you aren't going to read the posts why comment?

I truly do not understand. Nice job of trolling though. READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU COMMENT.

[Don Draper]

DyanstySS showed on court and off court defensive ratings. What the problem with this? It is basically +/- with defensive rating. Like I said before this proves nothing because if he were to look at the numbers of other players the results are laughable (Dwight Howard makes the Orlando defense worse; Tim Duncan has no effect of the SA defense). Furthermore, because of the minutes per game these players play the sample sizes of minutes are disproportionate (ie. comparing a defensive rating over 37 min compared to a defensive rating over 11 min)

What is so hard to understand about this? Foyle is a better defender than Howard. Why wouldn't the team defense be better with him on the floor? Sure, he can't score like D12 so the overall +/- will take a hit, but you can't deny Foyle's defensive tenacity.

Also, Tim Duncan is one of the cogs to a defensive machine. He has formidable back ups, but more importantly, a team defense concept that does not allow for major slipups when a pivotal piece like Duncan leaves the game.

Good point but...

Tim Duncan is one of the top 2 defensive big men in the NBA. His effect being non-exisitent bother me. I wonder how it would be if it was over the course of more minutes.

Which brings me to my second point. I would appreciate the numbers more if they were over an eual amount of time. I think for players who average around 20-30 minutes per page this can be very useful, but when you play 37 MPG and you are off the court for 11 MPG the comparison is not the same.

Also the numbers don't factor in lineups and defensive schemes, which can affect these ratings greatly.

I understand what you are saying, I just think there is more to it.

[DynastySS]

DyanstySS showed on court and off court defensive ratings. What the problem with this? It is basically +/- with defensive rating. Like I said before this proves nothing because if he were to look at the numbers of other players the results are laughable (Dwight Howard makes the Orlando defense worse; Tim Duncan has no effect of the SA defense). Furthermore, because of the minutes per game these players play the sample sizes of minutes are disproportionate (ie. comparing a defensive rating over 37 min compared to a defensive rating over 11 min)

What is so hard to understand about this? Foyle is a better defender than Howard. Why wouldn't the team defense be better with him on the floor? Sure, he can't score like D12 so the overall +/- will take a hit, but you can't deny Foyle's defensive tenacity.

Also, Tim Duncan is one of the cogs to a defensive machine. He has formidable back ups, but more importantly, a team defense concept that does not allow for major slipups when a pivotal piece like Duncan leaves the game.

Good point but...

Tim Duncan is one of the top 2 defensive big men in the NBA. His effect being non-exisitent bother me. I wonder how it would be if it was over the course of more minutes.

Which brings me to my second point. I would appreciate the numbers more if they were over an eual amount of time. I think for players who average around 20-30 minutes per page this can be very useful, but when you play 37 MPG and you are off the court for 11 MPG the comparison is not the same.

Also the numbers don't factor in lineups and defensive schemes, which can affect these ratings greatly.

I understand what you are saying, I just think there is more to it.

To be fair, I wasn't overly confident with the Duncan explanation either

The points you bring up have merit, and they go to show that statistics are not the end all explanation or measuring stick to a player's greatness. There is no perfect stat, and this argument is a testament to that. With that said, I do believe they can be utilized to help demonstrate a point. I, along with the entirety of this thread, believe that Amare is one of the most horrid defenders the league has seen in years. Many of us have deduced this by observation and first hand experience. Some of us have tried to incorporate certain stats to bolster our argument. Whether or not these are riddled with inaccuracies is up to you to decide, but I am confident to say that the majority of us have accounted for both styles of evidence and concluded he just flat out blows at defense.