Robbed?: post your complaints

[cap_111]

Did you see the Japanese 15 year old in the beam finals? She looked just as small and skinny as the smallest Chinese gymnast. Will you also claim on your look and feel standards that the Japanese are sending underage gymnasts as well?

TSURUMI Koko
http://www.nbcolympics.com/athletes/ath ... index.html

She's listed as 4'7" which would put her as big as an average American 10 year old.


Also He, the Chinese gymnast you are saying is underage, is around the same height as Shawn Johnson. They are listed 1 inch height difference. I've seen photos of each of them standing right next to Liukin, and both Johnson and He are almost the same height difference from Liukin.

You just can't tell some girl ages by appearance. And I don't know how accurate Chinese media reports are. Journalists the world over are known to make up stuff to fill out a story. Unless the girl say any different, official age is, by definition, whatever the government reports it is. What next, get medical and hospital history? But you can also claim that is fake too. Send in a FBI investigation team?

Has anyone responded to this? I'm also curious as why nobody has raised the same questions about the Japanese team, because I too, noticed the extreme petite frame of that Japanese athlete at the beams final. I also remember reading an article (by US media) mentioning that the average height and average weight of the Japanese team are very similiar to the Chinese team, whereas the US team's average weight is 20 or 30 lbs heavier. Since most people and reports I read claim that the Chinese girls don't "look" 16, I'm just curious what makes the Japanese team "look" 16 with similar if not smaller frames.

[dougthonus]

He must have entered competitions before and check her passport record. You can take it from there. All these news reports, as I said, has no legal validity whatsoever.

No, it has no legal validity. There is no way to provide legal validity, because the person who issues the only legally valid papers is the one doing the cheating. The outcry for a legal document proving the allegations true is moronic. There exists no document, because the only 'legal' papers certifying age are created by the people who are cheating. To look at legal documentation would be to just say "Hey China are you cheating? No.. Okay, we'll take your word for it.". That is essentially what is happening.

Just because something is repeated by the media multiple times it does not mean it is true. Didn't we hear from media, and from the US government, hundreds of times, that Saddam had WMD before the Iraq war? What did we find? NOTHING.

It's not just repeated by the media as in, media is saying "look chinese athletes are underage look how young they look on TV!". These athletes were documented by THE CHINESE as being underage in all of CHINA'S gymnastic competitions over the past three years, and that evidence is what is being shown by US media now. It's not a matter of the US saying something over and over, it's a matter of China documenting it's own athletes as underage, then covering it up and forging passports. An activity, by the way, which Chinese athletes have admitted has gone on in the past (just 8 years ago at that Olympics).

If you want to point out that nothing will be done then I agree. Nothing will be done.

If you want to tell me you actually believe all of those gymnasts were actually of age then I think you are full of it.

If you want to tell me that it's irrelevant that China cheats then I think you might as well cancel the Olympics all together. If you can't play a game by the rules than it's not worth playing it at all. The results are invalid and meaningless without evenly enforced rules.

[XcalibuR]

Web Blogs are blocked in china (unfortunately) so can someone post that article here? I read parts of it from other sites and they do seem convincing but I actually need to read the article. Oh and its like 12am here so I'll probably read it tomorrow.

[dougthonus]

I can't really post the relevant part of the articles because it's a lot of screen captures of Chinese articles written about their gymnasts and the official rosters of their gymnasts for Chinese tournaments all showing their age as being adjusted. It shows the articles as cached by google and how they were later changed.

[canoner]

He must have entered competitions before and check her passport record. You can take it from there. All these news reports, as I said, has no legal validity whatsoever.

No, it has no legal validity. There is no way to provide legal validity, because the person who issues the only legally valid papers is the one doing the cheating.

Again, you have arrived to this conclusion based on "evidences" that has no legal validity, while ignoring the only evidence that bears some legal validity. There is a legal system and the reason for that is otherwise people will go around circles like this.

It is interesting to see that readers choose to hold chinese media true on this matter but when it comes to human right or Tibet or other political issues nothing the chinese media says is taken seriously. Has it occured to you maybe the Media made a mistake or simply understated He's age in order to boast what a rising star she is? If you really believe that Chinese are a bunch of cheaters, you have to entertain this possibility.

Past record is for consideration but you cannot convict someone based on it. Otherwise from now every time US government accuse someone of doing something the world is gonna say it is a lie considering how manipulative Bush and his gang was on Iraq WMD issue.

[dougthonus]

Again, you have arrived to this conclusion based on "evidences" that has no legal validity, while ignoring the only evidence that bears some legal validity. There is a legal system and the reason for that is otherwise people will go around circles like this.

I don't know what your point is.

THE ONLY LEGAL DOCUMENT IS CREATED BY THE CHEATER.

Asking for a legal document proving their age is in fact wrong, is basically saying "prove that China is so inept at cheating that the documented their forgery of their documents" for us.

I've already conceded that legally there is nothing that will likely be done to China. I'm discussing whether they actually cheated not whether or not there is legal proof of such a matter that is admissible in court and would trump a government passport document.

It is interesting to see that readers choose to hold chinese media true on this matter but when it comes to human right or Tibet or other political issues nothing the chinese media says is taken seriously.

I don't hold the Chinese media true on this matter. In fact, as soon as their articles were discovered and the issue was brought up they went and changed them all to help their government cover up the issue at hand.

Has it occured to you maybe the Media made a mistake or simply understated He's age in order to boast what a rising star she is? If you really believe that Chinese are a bunch of cheaters, you have to entertain this possibility.

Yes, it is possible that the media and coaches all made errors over a three year period on three separate athletes and got their ages wrong. I'd estimate that possibility at about 1 in 1 billion or so.

Past record is for consideration but you cannot convict someone based on it. Otherwise from now every time US government accuse someone of doing something the world is gonna say it is a lie considering how manipulative Bush and his gang was on Iraq WMD issue.

I'm not talking about convicting the Chinese. I already stated quite simply that I knew nothing would happen.

I just said that they are cheaters. They are cheaters who deserve no respect or admiration. Those involved are an absolute embarrassment to their country, and unfortunately that seems to be a large number of people in the government and media who have orchestrated and covered this up as well as their gymnastics coaches. I would let the girls themselves off the hook a little bit (they still are complicit for forwarding on the lie) just because of their age I can see why they wouldn't be able to stand up and admit to it.

I'm personally offended and embarrassed by America's cheating T&F athletes who are all doped up. I'm glad they took Floyd Landis's Tour De France away from him.

I'm against cheating no matter who does it, but especially in the Olympics who's games are supposed to embody a spirit of fair play and honesty (yeah I suppose that's a joke these days).

[canoner]

I don't know what your point is.

THE ONLY LEGAL DOCUMENT IS CREATED BY THE CHEATER.

But you have no legally valid evidence to overrule the only legal document. And you may suspect cheating from past cheaters, but you cannot prove it.

I don't hold the Chinese media true on this matter. In fact, as soon as their articles were discovered and the issue was brought up they went and changed them all to help their government cover up the issue at hand.

So if Chinese media changed something, the old report must be true? But wait, their reports on human right and Tibet situation have stayed the same even after all the critics, so those reports must be true too, right? Sounds like you formed your general opinions first and filter information selectively to justify your belief. Common practice by all or us to some degree, I guess.

Yes, it is possible that the media and coaches all made errors over a three year period on three separate athletes and got their ages wrong. I'd estimate that possibility at about 1 in 1 billion or so.

I'd like to know how you got that probability. It seems to me getting 3 athletes' age wrong is 1 billion times more likely than misjudging the WMD's situation in Iraq.

I'm not talking about convicting the Chinese. I already stated quite simply that I knew nothing would happen.

I just said that they are cheaters. They are cheaters who deserve no respect or admiration. Those involved are an absolute embarrassment to their country, and unfortunately that seems to be a large number of people in the government and media who have orchestrated and covered this up as well as their gymnastics coaches. I would let the girls themselves off the hook a little bit (they still are complicit for forwarding on the lie) just because of their age I can see why they wouldn't be able to stand up and admit to it.

Let me rephrase my statement. You cannot indict someone based on past record. Otherwise US government deserves no respect or admiration. US medias deserves no respect of admiration either because they were all accomplices of US government on the WMD issue. No countries deserves respect because EVERYBODY has criminal records in the past. Is that fair?

[canoner]

People have their view clouded when they already formed their opinions and then they see things in the wrong way. I'd like to see Bela's reaction if someone put Johnson's and He's picture together and ask him "look at their bodies, does Johnson look older than He?" Had he and other NBC commentators seen the two walk side by side? They must. But they couldn't see the evidence right in front of their eyes because they didn't want to see it.

And all the posters who questioned He's young look all have given up on that now, haven't they? Be open minded and you will see there is probability that your conviction may be wrong.

[cap_111]

Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney.

i guess Yang Yun's (fake) passport was just fine in 2000.

btw

Rogge rips the wrong guy

BEIJING — Jacques Rogge is so bought, so compromised, the president of the IOC doesn’t have the courage to criticize China for telling a decade of lies to land itself these Olympic Games.

All the promises made to get these Games — on Tibet, Darfur, pollution, worker safety, freedom of expression, dissident rights — turned out to be phony, perhaps as phony as the Chinese gymnasts' birth certificates Rogge was way too scared to investigate.

lol

may I get the link of the "quote" that you posted? Or maybe a transcript of the interivew? I just wiki'ed Yang Yun, as you mentioned in your post. It says that she is the fiance of the chinese gymnast and gold medalist Yang Wei, and also a CCTV reporter. So someone who has openly admitted that Chinese government or herself has cheated on the 2000 olympics, yet the IOC did not strip away her medal? and she still has a job as a TV reporter and enjoys a somewhat successful life (i'm assuming she's somewhat popular in China), in a country that "supposedly" has no human right and can kill people whenever they want? really? It does sounds a little fishy to me. If the passport can't be trusted, shouldn't a copy of this interview be sent to the IOC so that her medal can be taken away from her? how come nobody has done it yet?

EDIT: my point is that I doubt the validity or even the existence of such interview as if it really does exist, it would be a pretty good evidence to take her medal away.

[canoner]

Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney.

i guess Yang Yun's (fake) passport was just fine in 2000.

btw

Rogge rips the wrong guy

BEIJING — Jacques Rogge is so bought, so compromised, the president of the IOC doesn’t have the courage to criticize China for telling a decade of lies to land itself these Olympic Games.

All the promises made to get these Games — on Tibet, Darfur, pollution, worker safety, freedom of expression, dissident rights — turned out to be phony, perhaps as phony as the Chinese gymnasts' birth certificates Rogge was way too scared to investigate.

lol

may I get the link of the "quote" that you posted? Or maybe a transcript of the interivew? I just wiki'ed Yang Yun, as you mentioned in your post. It says that she is the fiance of the chinese gymnast and gold medalist Yang Wei, and also a CCTV reporter. So someone who has openly admitted that Chinese government or herself has cheated on the 2000 olympics, yet the IOC did not strip away her medal? and she still has a job as a TV reporter and enjoys a somewhat successful life (i'm assuming she's somewhat popular in China), in a country that "supposedly" has no human right and can kill people whenever they want? really? It does sounds a little fishy to me. If the passport can't be trusted, shouldn't a copy of this interview be sent to the IOC so that her medal can be taken away from her? how come nobody has done it yet?

Because what one says outside a court room or not under legally binding terms has no legal validity.

[canoner]

I am not convinced He is of age, nor I am not convince she is underage. I can see that either way is possible. There is no overwhelming evidence by either side of the debate. IOC has made their call and to me that is that before new evidence emerges.

[cap_111]

Because what one says outside a court room or not under legally binding terms has no legal validity.

But should it at least warrant the effort to bring her to court and give a legal statement about her age?

Many people, including professional journalist, have used some non-existent links or a screenshot of some magic cached website as hard proof of the chinese cheating, but wouldn't a link of this video be 1000 times better than some magic screenshot? Imagine if NBC just plays this interview on loop on their prime with English subtitles, even if the IOC can't do anything, wouldn't it still be a much much stronger evidence than the non-existent link? Maybe even an non-existent link to this video? or a screenshot of her giving the interview? I just think that the fact that no links have come up yet makes me doubt the existence of such "interview".

[canoner]

Because what one says outside a court room or not under legally binding terms has no legal validity.

But should it at least warrant the effort to bring her to court and give a legal statement about her age?

The effort has been made and the passport provided trumps all.

[5DOM]

Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney.

i guess Yang Yun's (fake) passport was just fine in 2000.

btw

Rogge rips the wrong guy

BEIJING — Jacques Rogge is so bought, so compromised, the president of the IOC doesn’t have the courage to criticize China for telling a decade of lies to land itself these Olympic Games.

All the promises made to get these Games — on Tibet, Darfur, pollution, worker safety, freedom of expression, dissident rights — turned out to be phony, perhaps as phony as the Chinese gymnasts' birth certificates Rogge was way too scared to investigate.

lol

may I get the link of the "quote" that you posted?

sorry, it's here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sport ... ref=slogin

[dougthonus]

But you have no legally valid evidence to overrule the only legal document. And you may suspect cheating from past cheaters, but you cannot prove it.

You sure love to beat the hell out of the straw man don't you. I'm not arguing legal, nor have I made any case that I am. I am arguing that it's obvious China is cheating and that there is no legal proof because the only legal proof is provided by the cheaters.

As for past events, the cheaters admitted they cheated under no duress. What the hell else do you want given that there exists no such contradictory documents since only the cheating Chinese government creates them.

So if Chinese media changed something, the old report must be true? But wait, their reports on human right and Tibet situation have stayed the same even after all the critics, so those reports must be true too, right? Sounds like you formed your general opinions first and filter information selectively to justify your belief. Common practice by all or us to some degree, I guess.

So the Chinese media misreports ages.
The Chinese coaches misenter ages.
Both, multiple times for multiple athletes over multiple years.

Then, the only age that is actually correct is the one that is the bare minimum required to be eligible for this Olympics? That's what you're selling me. Sorry the odds of that are basically zero IMO. For a multitude of sources to be incorrect on three separate individuals on common information over a period spanning multiple years is just ridiculous. My three year old knows how old she is. Seriously, there's no way this kind of information would circulate throughout multiple sources and registries for years incorrectly.

Let me rephrase my statement. You cannot indict someone based on past record. Otherwise US government deserves no respect or admiration. US medias deserves no respect of admiration either because they were all accomplices of US government on the WMD issue. No countries deserves respect because EVERYBODY has criminal records in the past. Is that fair?

I didn't lay my blanket statement on all of China. I said those involved in orchestrating the cheating and covering it up. Anyone involved in the US government lying about their reasons for going to war or covering up those lies also deserves no respect and deserves to be spit upon including the president. If he went to war under knowingly false pretenses then he deserves to be thrown out of the office and prosecuted. This is a separate issue. I'm not sure why you like to keep bringing up tibet or WMD as I don't particularly care about either issue.

[cap_111]

sorry, it's here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sport ... ref=slogin

Thanks.

but to me, the article still didn't provide anything concrete in terms of the existence of such interview. I was hoping to see a link to the interview or something b/c it is hard for me to believe that she (Yang Yun) can say that she was underage when competing in the Olympics, on state tv, and there has been no repercussion. (Also, if this is true, is she stupid? Why would she go on national TV and say "I lied" out of nowhere?)

That's like reading on nytimes that Michael Phelps went on an CNN interview and said he took banned drugs, but tested negative, yet nothing has been done to him and I can't find such interview on youtube. Probably not the best example, or even put phelps in the same sentence as banned drugs given his accomplishment, but I"m just trying to explain why it doesn't make sense to me. (so if I offended any phelps fans, I apologize.)

[canoner]

But you have no legally valid evidence to overrule the only legal document. And you may suspect cheating from past cheaters, but you cannot prove it.

You sure love to beat the hell out of the straw man don't you. I'm not arguing legal, nor have I made any case that I am. I am arguing that it's obvious China is cheating and that there is no legal proof because the only legal proof is provided by the cheaters.

As for past events, the cheaters admitted they cheated under no duress. What the hell else do you want given that there exists no such contradictory documents since only the cheating Chinese government creates them.

So if Chinese media changed something, the old report must be true? But wait, their reports on human right and Tibet situation have stayed the same even after all the critics, so those reports must be true too, right? Sounds like you formed your general opinions first and filter information selectively to justify your belief. Common practice by all or us to some degree, I guess.

So the Chinese media misreports ages.
The Chinese coaches misenter ages.
Both, multiple times for multiple athletes over multiple years.

Then, the only age that is actually correct is the one that is the bare minimum required to be eligible for this Olympics? That's what you're selling me. Sorry the odds of that are basically zero IMO. For a multitude of sources to be incorrect on three separate individuals on common information over a period spanning multiple years is just ridiculous. My three year old knows how old she is. Seriously, there's no way this kind of information would circulate throughout multiple sources and registries for years incorrectly.

Let me rephrase my statement. You cannot indict someone based on past record. Otherwise US government deserves no respect or admiration. US medias deserves no respect of admiration either because they were all accomplices of US government on the WMD issue. No countries deserves respect because EVERYBODY has criminal records in the past. Is that fair?

I didn't lay my blanket statement on all of China. I said those involved in orchestrating the cheating and covering it up. Anyone involved in the US government lying about their reasons for going to war or covering up those lies also deserves no respect and deserves to be spit upon including the president. If he went to war under knowingly false pretenses then he deserves to be thrown out of the office and prosecuted. This is a separate issue. I'm not sure why you like to keep bringing up tibet or WMD as I don't particularly care about either issue.

And you sure like to beat the hell out of the draw too. You keep saying "they are cheating because they are obviously cheating". All of the "evidences" you brought up are circumstantial and of no legal validity at all but it it "obvious" to you that they must be true. Once you decide what is "obvious", obviously there is nothing that can change your mind, is there?

So what they misentered the age? Powell even unkowningly presented fabricated evidence to UN. You would think that went through much more rigorous verification process. Mistakes happens. I can even imagine that Chinese media understated He's age in the past just like every woman like to do to her age. Provincial teams misentering someone's age doesn't mean the national team is behind it.

I brought up other issues to demonstrate that you, as a matter of fact everyone including me, twist information left and right to justify our preformed beliefs. The difference is some admit our biases, some don't.

[dougthonus]

And you sure like to beat the hell out of the draw too. You keep saying "they are cheating because they are obviously cheating". All of the "evidences" you brought up are circumstantial and of no legal validity at all but it it "obvious" to you that they must be true. Once you decide what is "obvious", obviously there is nothing that can change your mind, is there?

You haven't brought up any evidence that would change my mind. You've brought up a semantic argument over the legality of various evidence. In the US there are criminal and civil trials and the results (over the same thing) can be quite different due to the amount of evidence needed to convict. China clearly would get past a criminal trial, but they would get their ass kicked in the civil trial.

So what they misentered the age?

If it was one wrong age entered one time, that would be quite understandable. To misenter the age of three separate athletes, over the course of several years, and the same data entry error is made by multiple people does not seem to be reasonable at all.

Powell even unkowningly presented fabricated evidence to UN. You would think that went through much more rigorous verification process.

Take it to the politics forum. I don't particularly care what your rationalization of some separate wrong in some separate issue exists.

Mistakes happens. I can even imagine that Chinese media understated He's age in the past just like every woman like to do to her age.

There is not a kid I've ever met that would ever understate their age. Kids always want to be older.

Provincial teams misentering someone's age doesn't mean the national team is behind it.

No Provincial teams misentering someone's age wouldn't mean the national team is behind it. That would mean it was an innocent mistake. If you sincerely believe that, more power to you. Given the history of China in this sport particularly, as well as in basketball, and the history of the reports do you really believe that? Honestly? If so more power to you. I do not (obviously enough).

[dougthonus]

I brought up other issues to demonstrate that you, as a matter of fact everyone including me, twist information left and right to justify our preformed beliefs. The difference is some admit our biases, some don't.

I'm clearly biased. I know NBA scouts who run Chinese basketball camps who've told me that China routinely lies about their age requirements. I know previous Chinese gymnasts have admitted to using false passports and lied about their age. Yes those things bias me. I'm also biased that the sun will come up tomorrow. I don't need to be convinced of something with full evidence every time it happens. If China hadn't already been caught cheating at gymnastics in this way in the past and if I didn't know they routinely cheat in basketball to compete in the U20 divisions then maybe I would give them more benefit of the doubt in believing their extraordinarily difficult to believe story.

However, I do know they cheated in the past in gymnastics. I do know they lie about their basketball players ages (or at least it's a commonly held opinion among the Chinese and Americans I know who work with the athletes that they do). Could I be wrong, sure I could be. I really don't think so in this case though.

[BlackMamba]

how do you know for a fact that they cheated?