BlackMamba wrote:how do you know for a fact that they cheated?
His answer is "obviously they cheated".
BlackMamba wrote:how do you know for a fact that they cheated?
dougthonus wrote:I brought up other issues to demonstrate that you, as a matter of fact everyone including me, twist information left and right to justify our preformed beliefs. The difference is some admit our biases, some don't.
I'm clearly biased. I know NBA scouts who run Chinese basketball camps who've told me that China routinely lies about their age requirements. I know previous Chinese gymnasts have admitted to using false passports and lied about their age. Yes those things bias me. I'm also biased that the sun will come up tomorrow. I don't need to be convinced of something with full evidence every time it happens. If China hadn't already been caught cheating at gymnastics in this way in the past and if I didn't know they routinely cheat in basketball to compete in the U20 divisions then maybe I would give them more benefit of the doubt in believing their extraordinarily difficult to believe story.
However, I do know they cheated in the past in gymnastics. I do know they lie about their basketball players ages (or at least it's a commonly held opinion among the Chinese and Americans I know who work with the athletes that they do). Could I be wrong, sure I could be. I really don't think so in this case though.
dougthonus wrote:I brought up other issues to demonstrate that you, as a matter of fact everyone including me, twist information left and right to justify our preformed beliefs. The difference is some admit our biases, some don't.
I'm clearly biased. I know NBA scouts who run Chinese basketball camps who've told me that China routinely lies about their age requirements. I know previous Chinese gymnasts have admitted to using false passports and lied about their age. Yes those things bias me. I'm also biased that the sun will come up tomorrow. I don't need to be convinced of something with full evidence every time it happens. If China hadn't already been caught cheating at gymnastics in this way in the past and if I didn't know they routinely cheat in basketball to compete in the U20 divisions then maybe I would give them more benefit of the doubt in believing their extraordinarily difficult to believe story.
However, I do know they cheated in the past in gymnastics. I do know they lie about their basketball players ages (or at least it's a commonly held opinion among the Chinese and Americans I know who work with the athletes that they do). Could I be wrong, sure I could be. I really don't think so in this case though.
cap_111 wrote:
Thanks.
but to me, the article still didn't provide anything concrete in terms of the existence of such interview. I was hoping to see a link to the interview or something b/c it is hard for me to believe that she (Yang Yun) can say that she was underage when competing in the Olympics, on state tv, and there has been no repercussion. (Also, if this is true, is she stupid? Why would she go on national TV and say "I lied" out of nowhere?)
That's like reading on nytimes that Michael Phelps went on an CNN interview and said he took banned drugs, but tested negative, yet nothing has been done to him and I can't find such interview on youtube. Probably not the best example, or even put phelps in the same sentence as banned drugs given his accomplishment, but I"m just trying to explain why it doesn't make sense to me. (so if I offended any phelps fans, I apologize.)
China has a rich history of age falsification in Olympics competition, especially in gymnastics. At the 2000 Sydney Olympics, three years after the minimum age was raised to 16 in gymnastics, Chinese gymnast Yang Yun competed and won a bronze medal in the uneven bars (coincidentally this event is also He's specialty). Yang's passport said she was born on December 24, 1984 and turning 16 in the year of the Games, making her eligible. She later confessed in a television interview that she was only 14 at the time of the competition and that she and her coaches had lied about her age.
As in the case of Yang Yun, the existing records prior to the Olympics -- local registries, athletic records and news articles -- were all correct, whereas the documentation she showed Olympic officials to confirm her eligibility proved to be false. It is no coincidence that He Kexin's passport was issued on February 14, 2008, a mere 6 months before the Olympics.
EXHIBIT A: A China Daily article dated May 23, 2008 titled "Uneven-bars queen the new star in town" about He Kexin. This is the cached version (thanks Google) of the article as seen on August 4, 2008.
EXHIBIT B: The same China Daily article dated May 23, 2008 titled "Uneven-bars queen the new star in town" about He Kexin. This is the version currently available online. As you can see, when compared to EXHIBIT A, everything is identical. Except for one little thing. The state-run newspaper has changed He's age.
EXHIBIT C: A Chinese article written by state-run news agency Xinhua in 2007, and discovered by the great China Digital Times that refers to He Kexin as 13 years old. And though I wasn't a math major, if she was 13 in 2007, then she's 14 this year. Here is an image of the article with a translation from CDT beneath it.
EXHIBIT C: A Chinese article written by state-run news agency Xinhua in 2007, and discovered by the great China Digital Times that refers to He Kexin as 13 years old. And though I wasn't a math major, if she was 13 in 2007, then she's 14 this year. Here is an image of the article with a translation from CDT beneath it.Translation: The thirteen-year-old He Kexin, from Wuhan, met opponent Yang Yilin, who is on the National Team. Amid cheers from her hometown audience, the young girl excellently executed the full set of moves in the finals, and just beat out Yang Yilin, who already had high scores. Lu Shanzhen, the General Coach of the National Gymastic team, also applauded her performance.
EXHIBIT D: An official gymnastics roster dated January 27, 2006 published by the Chengdu government for its City Games, a competition in which He competed. As you'll see from the translated version I have provided, He Kexin's date of birth, according to these government documents, is January 1, 1994.
Within China's domestic sports scene there has been age-fixing as well. Young athletes can be designated as younger than they are so they can dominate in age-based competitions, as was the case with Chinese basketball star Wang Zhizhi, whose age was listed in inter-club competitions as two years younger than he actually was.
Earlier this year, a 14-year-old table-tennis prodigy in eastern Shandong province told me quite cheerfully that she competes as an 11-year-old in provincial and regional age-ranked competitions. Her national identity card, she said, had been changed to reflect the false birth-date. "It's no big deal," she insisted. "Most of my friends do it, too." Her coach, who hadn't been present when I interviewed the girl, denied any age-fixing at the school, although he said he was quite sure it happened at other academies.
canoner wrote:dougthonus, obviously the discussion is going nowhere. You have not provided any evidence to convince me that is cheating involved, suspicion yes but FAR from conviction, so I choose to keep an open mind. Yeah, I haven't provided any proof to convince you that there is no cheating yet you already made up your mind. It was never my intention to convince you of anything. I merely wanted to pointed out you may be wrong and maybe you should be a bit more open minded and see other possibilities. That is all.
dougthonus wrote:There is not a kid I've ever met that would ever understate their age. Kids always want to be older.
5DOM wrote:just type "yang yun underage" on google, and you will see enough proofs. i mean new york times is not the most trusted paper, but they wouldnt make up something (that would cause some controversy), would they? yang yun was definitely underage in 2000
As in the case of Yang Yun, the existing records prior to the Olympics -- local registries, athletic records and news articles -- were all correct, whereas the documentation she showed Olympic officials to confirm her eligibility proved to be false. It is no coincidence that He Kexin's passport was issued on February 14, 2008, a mere 6 months before the Olympics.
it's sad that IOC never reverses a decision already made (also see the Korean gymnast who got robbed in Athens). that korean guy deserved a gold medal unlike yang yun who cheated.
ioc is a joke.
the chinse gymnasts are just as innocent as oj simpson
canoner wrote:dougthonus wrote:There is not a kid I've ever met that would ever understate their age. Kids always want to be older.
Yet most American fans were so ready to believe Yi understated his age. Ironic isn't it? It goes back to what I said before: you choose to believe what you believe, depending on when and where, in order to justify your already formed beliefs.
Basketball
China admits to age fraud
A SENIOR Chinese basketball official admits China had been guilty of fielding over-aged players in youth internationals.
"I'm sorry to say that some of our past results from international youth games were not real as we had some over-aged players in the squads," Xinhua quoted Zhang Xiong, director of the training and research department of the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA), as saying today
5DOM wrote:canoner wrote:dougthonus, obviously the discussion is going nowhere. You have not provided any evidence to convince me that is cheating involved, suspicion yes but FAR from conviction, so I choose to keep an open mind. Yeah, I haven't provided any proof to convince you that there is no cheating yet you already made up your mind. It was never my intention to convince you of anything. I merely wanted to pointed out you may be wrong and maybe you should be a bit more open minded and see other possibilities. That is all.
You must believe OJ Simpson is innocent.
Blame Rasho wrote:canoner wrote:dougthonus wrote:There is not a kid I've ever met that would ever understate their age. Kids always want to be older.
Yet most American fans were so ready to believe Yi understated his age. Ironic isn't it? It goes back to what I said before: you choose to believe what you believe, depending on when and where, in order to justify your already formed beliefs.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,865 ... 69,00.html
Basketball
China admits to age fraud
A SENIOR Chinese basketball official admits China had been guilty of fielding over-aged players in youth internationals.
"I'm sorry to say that some of our past results from international youth games were not real as we had some over-aged players in the squads," Xinhua quoted Zhang Xiong, director of the training and research department of the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA), as saying today
Oh nooz....
"But from now on, we promise to have real under-18 or under-20 national teams compete in our internationals."
Yao_noodle wrote:team of dopers complaint about team of false agers?
wow, that's complicated. no wonder it reached 8 pages and is going on.
get a life, whiners and haters.
Blame Rasho wrote:So we have to have good faith believe that China will never change birthdays in their best interest, when they have admitted to changing dates of their athletes? Sure...
cap_111 wrote:Blame Rasho wrote:So we have to have good faith believe that China will never change birthdays in their best interest, when they have admitted to changing dates of their athletes? Sure...
so you are suggesting that we believe them when they say they cheated, and not believe them when they say they won't cheat again, when they have said all that in the same sentence? ok...
Blame Rasho wrote:No... It is quite simple. China has changed birthdays due to get a completive advantage. Why should we in good faith believe them when an age issue is brought up, when they have cheated?
cap_111 wrote:5DOM wrote:just type "yang yun underage" on google, and you will see enough proofs. i mean new york times is not the most trusted paper, but they wouldnt make up something (that would cause some controversy), would they? yang yun was definitely underage in 2000
The problem I have with the nytimes article is that, the auther did not state where he /she get this information from. Did he / she watch the the actual interview? Did he / she heard it from a fellow journalist? Did he / she read it on some other websites? I'm trying to make a decision for myself on this issue, so I'd really like to check out the original source for myself to be convinced of what nytimes is claiming. Actually, I may need to go back and recheck the source you posted, as I forgot if it belongs to a blog on nytimes or if it's an actual news article. If it's a blog or a column, I'd discredit it even more as it often times just expresses one person's opinion.As in the case of Yang Yun, the existing records prior to the Olympics -- local registries, athletic records and news articles -- were all correct, whereas the documentation she showed Olympic officials to confirm her eligibility proved to be false. It is no coincidence that He Kexin's passport was issued on February 14, 2008, a mere 6 months before the Olympics.
Again, from the above quote, it seems like the Yang Yun incident is only brought up b/c of this year's olympics. What I'm curious is that if it is true that she was underage, then when the interview was first conducted, how come nobody said anything?it's sad that IOC never reverses a decision already made (also see the Korean gymnast who got robbed in Athens). that korean guy deserved a gold medal unlike yang yun who cheated.
ioc is a joke.
See, I actually know something about the Paul Hamm incident. and I believe this is an entirely differernt situation. Paul Hamm was rewarded the gold medal based on a judging error, and b/c the korean gymnast Yang Tae-young's coach has protested too late, ioc has refused to reverse the decision and only awarded Yang a bronze medal. That is very differernt from being caught cheating. to say that "ioc never reverses a decision already made" and use the paul hamm incident as an example is a completely false statement, and extremely misleading for someone who doesn't know the details of the Hamm story. IOC has taken back plenty of medals before for violating anti-doping rules, and other reasons.the chinse gymnasts are just as innocent as oj simpson
I really appreciate you listing and quoting a lot of information and answering some of my questions, but to say things such as above really discredit a lot of things you said previously.
I think taking back medals from PROVEN undeserving athletes is exactly what the IOC would do.