The challenge of Ray Allen as the sixth man

[campybatman]

This is an idea that has been discussed before but hasn't happened in real life. For me, I can see how such a change in the Celtics lineup can work. However, it's tough to imagine a player who's set to make $17.3M and $18.7M in the next two seasons as a reserve. Yes, Ray Allen would be this team's sixth man but I don't believe he nor the front office could be content with the change in role. Then too, Ray will be a tough player to figure out his future on the Celtics with the speculation asking if he could be moved after next season.

I don't think Ray has to come off the bench. But, I wonder why it's that it's a delicate decision to make where the Spurs or Lakers could get away with making such a switch.

The thing about Ray playing with the second unit. Wouldn't he and House be in the back court. Then you'll have two shooters/scorers if Pruitt doesn't win the back up point guard duty. Someone should be the facilitator. Hence, why it might not work to have Ray come off the bench. If so, then Pruitt has to be the back up. Or Ray will need to look for teammates more than he would and turn down a few shots.

One of the biggest moves the Lakers make this season may not involve a trade or signing. They are considering bringing Lamar Odom off the bench in a role similar to Manu Ginobili who comes off the bench but plays a starter's minutes. This may be a very beneficial role for both Odom and the Lakers. I'd like to see the Celtics do something like that with Ray Allen, possibly starting Tony Allen. Tony always played better as a starter and it may help Ray to come off the bench with instant scoring.

http://celticsgreen.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... es_29.html

[PPAW4Life]

Ray as 6th man might happen one day...but not next season.

The guy led our team in MPG during the regular season and averaged 38 mpg in the playoffs and 41 mpg in the Finals (more than any other Celtic).

Ray's got a lot of gas left, and he will have a better 2nd season as our STARTING SG.

[buckner1976]

Ray as 6th man might happen one day...but not next season.

The guy led our team in MPG during the regular season and averaged 38 mpg in the playoffs and 41 mpg in the Finals (more than any other Celtic).

Ray's got a lot of gas left, and he will have a better 2nd season as our STARTING SG.

Agree 100% with this. I think this "start Tony, bring Ray off the bench" idea is over-thinking things a bit here. I get the logic of it. You start Tony where he's been more productive as a starter in the past. Ray becomes a terrific weapon to bring off your bench. The thing is though having a guy like Ray to come off the bench is a luxury, not necessity. And whenever Tony DOES come in he's gonna be playing with a handful of starters so I don't think it's gonna be that much of an issue. It's not like Doc makes wholesale "5 off, 5 on" substitutions here. The role of a good bench is to support the starters and fit in well with them. It's their job to relieve the starting players but since different starters will be relieved at different times I think we'll always have a good mix of players on the floor starters and bench that can get the job done. This move really wont be necessary. As PPAW said, there may one day be a time for this but we're not there yet.

[s1ickd]

the player that had the highest points per game average on our team in the nba finals should not come off the bench unless he's hurt.

[TheCelticTruth]

this supposes heavily that tony is worth starting at this point. obviously danny and doc have high expectations, but other than him resigning, my belief in TA is low until he shows something at this point

[campybatman]

Just to make sure no one misconstrues me if you haven't already done so. I'm not the one advocating Ray off the bench. I'm posting the opinion of one fan and opening it up for discussion. A lot of this talk of Ray coming off the bench is more to do with Tony then him. But, one thing I'll like to add is the notion that Ray is that much more important to the team because he lead the team in minutes. I think that's misleading. Ray Allen was needed more in games when Pierce or Pierce and Garnett are sitting. At least one of them, Pierce or Ray, must remain in the game so the scoring doesn't drop off. I believe that it's Ainge's hope that Miles can make the team and provide another scoring option off the bench besides Tony and House. With Tony struggling and not likely 100% last season. Ray had to play more being the one of the three All-Stars who lacked a viable back up. You could afford to sit Pierce and Garnett with Posey playing mostly at power forward and some at small forward. But, if Rondo sits and Pruitt seeing little to no playing time. House was asked to back up Rondo. So, again, Ray needed to play more than he sat. Ideally, next season Giddens and/or Walker steps up and is able to contribute where you can afford to rest Ray more. All three All-Stars could see their averages in minutes reduced a tad to keep them fresh down the stretch run of the regular season.

So, again, the idea of Ray Allen as a sixth man on the Celtics makes sense in some ways. But, you don't want to distance Ray from Pierce and Garnett anymore than seeing him absent during post game interviews with Pierce and Garnett or nearly not making the All-Star game or being paid like an All-Star and being asked to sacrifice even more by being regulated to the bench. A tough sell to a player that has been a starter in the NBA for a while. Not sure Tony's defense is worth bothering Ray when Ray proved that he can keep up defensively that he won't be a major liability defending an opponent. As far as Ray's future after next season. I feel like it'll be more up to Ray then what Ainge might consider doing. It might come down to money. Depends on how much Ray's contract extension is worth. I think if one sees Ray as another Reggie Miller. Then Ray could still remain a starter as his age increases, but won't make the salary he's making now.

If I could only find that article. There was an article that compared the three All-Stars to other players based on how much longer they all could last in the league at a respectable level assuming they remain healthy. Ray was compared to Reggie Miller, Garnett was compared to Karl Malone and Pierce was compared to Charles Barkley for a lack of a closer or more comparable player by the writer. The writer was more concern of Pierce's decline eventually than a dramatic decline in either Garnett or Ray. I think he felt Garnett keeps in such good shape like Malone that his shelf life is only limited by Garnett's desire to play. And Ray's a shooter that will always have a place as long as he's healthy. While Pierce... I guess for a slasher the beatings catch up to you soon enough. Good thing Pierce doesn't rely on athleticism and is more methodical on offense. Comparisons are good sometimes but aren't always right. I think these players will know when to call it quits before anyone can see whether or not they could've played more or might have retired sooner.

[GreenGrizz]

I can't disagree with this one because of his age. He worked incredibly hard all thru the playoffs last year. I would feel much better if he comes off the bench. I believe he will average 25 points that way and win the 6th award. Giddens is a four years college experience player. He got to start and contribute but not sure about his ability of coming off the bench. I have seen him at Kansas. He is a fast-starter. Should Walker start? I wouldn't underestimate his age and experience. He may be more confident than Gerald Green. Is this year Tony's time to break out? I haven't seen him come off the bench with good confidence maybe except a few games. If Giddens/Walker/Tony don't work, Ray always can come as a starter. Powe looked more comfortable with Ray in the later game.

[Dave_From_NB]

It just doesn't sit well with me to reward Tony Allen the starting role because he's underachieving as a backup. It would be the wrong message to the other young players, and I can't help but think that Ray Allen's motivation and performance would be damaged by demoting him for a lesser player. Guys need to earn the starting position.

Tony hasn't figured out to be an effective backup after being a backup for 4 years? He'd better figure it out in his 5'th, Giddens would seem to offer everything Allen does, and could quickly replace him. That's the message for Doc to give him, not that he's being promoted to starter.

[ParticleMan]

I appreciate what SA's done with Ginobli, but I'm a big believer in starting your best players. And Ray Allen is far better than any backup we have for him. Ray was very good defensively and offensively, and he provides spacing for Pierce and KG. Until Ray shows significant decline in his abilities I don't see any reason to even consider this. If TA can't handle being a backup, give Giddens a shot. TA better learn to come off the bench because that's going to be his role in this league.

[EJay33]

66-win championship teams don't bench Hall of Fame All-Stars to get the Tony Allens of the world in their preferred roles.

Tony Allen would prefer to be the starter - yeah - so would I. He wants Rays job lets see him take it. If I was Ray I'd ask for a trade if I got taken out of the lineup because Tony Allen is a non-factor if he has to come off the bench. If Tony can't handle being a backup - really - we should dump Tony Allen for a player who can do what the team needs him to do. That makes a lot more sense than insulting a player with Ray Allen's credentials who sacrificed a lot more shots than KG and Paul did to make the threeparty a success last season.

[Rocky5000]

This is something that we would only try if Tony off the bench, or Ray in the starting lineup was not going so well and causing us to lose games. If Doc finds a way to make Tony more comfortable that would be great for the team though. He'll probably end up the first guy off the bench this year, maybe it will be close enough to being a starter if that's what the problem is. But as Danny said, it's more an issue of consistent extended periods on the floor for Tony, than needing to be in the starting lineup. He doesn't look good in the 1-2 minute spurts that we were using him in last year. With Pose gone he should be able to stay on the floor long enough to get acclimated and get in rhythm. The thing with Tony is, when he's playing well you want him on the court for 40 minutes because he can be a big difference maker. When he's on, you'll hear Doc make comments like, "I didn't ever want to take him out." It'll be interesting to see where he fits in the lineup this year. He's our best bench player, so he'll see a lot of minutes, maybe even some more at pg, which Danny still thinks he can play.
Do you think Paul will play any 4 this year, with ray at the 3 and tony at the 2?

[grantlongforpresident]

Ray Allen gets no respect.

[Celtics_Champs]

Ray Allen gets no respect.

QFT

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

What a terrible idea. Yeah, let's start the game with 2 guards who have less than stellar jump shots. It's been noted that Ray Allen approached Doc for more touches during the regular season. I'm sure Ray would love it even more to come off the bench.

God, I can't wait until training camp.

[campybatman]

I appreciate what SA's done with Ginobli, but I'm a big believer in starting your best players.

I don't agree or disagree. I believe the best starting five should start and that doesn't always include the best players on the roster. It's more important to have chemistry then to group the most talented players together. Just like the best or more talented player on a team isn't always the team's captain. In most cases you would assume that he'll be the captain. But, sometimes it's the player who's the most vocal and willing takes on that responsibility and challenge; his teammates respect and listen to him.

The thing about Ginobili is you've to be a player who's willing to sacrifice in order to be able to accept coming off the bench. I say, it wouldn't matter as long as you're still getting regular minutes as if you were a starter. This might be the attitude of Ginobili. But, as the head coach you can't just convince him you've to make good on your promise. I feel that Tony could've this attitude as well. I'm sure he'll enjoy knowing he'll start but he takes it one game at a time and understands that team comes first. So, he's open to taking on that challenge of being the best team player or teammate he can be. I don't think the idea of not starting bothers him as much as it might have early on when he began with Boston. A player like Gordon is another example of a player like Ginobili who'd excelled in the role of being the sixth man/scorer off the bench. But, I would question if Gordon truly was "OK" with coming off the bench. I don't think he was but knew he'd to bite his tongue on the matter.

[Bad-Thoma]

Ray Allen gets no respect.

QFT repeated.

[PPAW4Life]

Gonna post some of Ray's numbers, cause people like to see stats.....they like to see "evidence".

Pre-All Star: 38 MPG / 43% FG% / 38% 3FG% / 91% FT / 18.5 PPG

Post-All Star: {31 MPG} / 49% FG% / 44% 3FG% / 89% FT / 15.6 PPG (These numbers are tremendous, if you look at Paul Pierce's Post AS numbers, those are really tremendous as well.)

What these numbers tell me is that Ray Allen DID NOT wear down as the season winded down. So age isn't a reason to make Ray a bench player.

However, looking at the efficiency of these numbers.....it suggests that we should LIMIT Ray's minutes to get the most FRESHNESS out of him.

Also, looking at the Playoffs Statistics: http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/2007/c ... stats.html

Break each round down and you notice that Ray Allen only had one really bad series....against Cleveland....and every other series, Ray was good to great.

Ray Allen's Finals performance was out of this world efficient: 51% / 52% 3PT / 87% FT / 20 PPG

Ray Allen's defense throughout the playoffs was also pretty underrated IMO.

Ray Allen is a player who is SUPPOSED to start.....no other questions about it.

[GreenGrizz]

If Doc is able to rotate and balance all starters, I am ok with it. It is hard to win the game when the bench is useless. We sometimes held scoreless in the fourth quarter against some deep teams.

[sully00]

Manu coming off the bench isn't self sacrifice he doesn't do well in extended mins. Last year was the first in his career that he avg more than 30 mpg. He comes off the bench because it is the best way to utililze him.

Ray Allen is perhaps the best conditioned player in the NBA, he avg 37 mpg in his career and has avg over 40 mpg several times. Beyond that Ray was terrific defensively last season, so sitting him for Tony Allen hurts on both ends.

I think Doc has this rotation thing handled.

[GuyClinch]

Please. Can we stop beating this dead horse? As I explained in an earlier thread (which evidently you missed) starting players who play the most minutes gives them more useful rest. That's why you start your best players.

If your going to play Ray Allen 35+ minutes it makes no sense to bring him off the bench. In a nutshell..that "rest" you get on the bench doesn't help you because at that time your are NOT TIRED.

A normal starter might play in the first (rest end of second/start of third) then play in third then rest end of third/start of fourth and then close out the game. If you try to work 35 minutes to a bench player...

You end up with him playing ALOT of "unrested" minutes. It would be really stupid for Doc Rivers to do this, and Doc Rivers has proven that contrary to the views of some posters he is not really stupid.

Pete