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Blue Jays GM: Burnett

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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#21 » by evilRyu » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:41 am

5DOM wrote:what sandwich picks can we expect?


If he opts out of his deal and signs with a contending team..we get their draft pick, AND a sandwich pick just for letting AJ go...... It is like obtaining 2 first round draft picks, which can be better than what we might be able to acquire in a trade anyways for AJ.

So we could have "three" first rounders in the next draft if he is NY-bound..... but wait, NY has to qualify as a "contending" team.. for that, i think you have to be top-8 or something in the league.... so that might screw something up... anyone can confirm?
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#22 » by Michael Bradley » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:02 pm

The worst 15 teams in the league do not surrender their first round pick if they sign a Type A free agent. Right now, only 10 teams have better records than the Yankees, so the Jays would get NY's first round pick if they signed Burnett. If a team in the bottom 15 signed Burnett, then the Jays would get a sandwich pick and that team's 2nd round pick, assuming that team didn't sign a higher ranked Type A free agent in addition to Burnett.

For example, if the Royals signed both Burnett and CC Sabathia, then the Jays would get KC's 3rd round pick while the Brewers would get KC's 2nd round pick because Sabathia would be ranked higher than Burnett by Elias. The Royals being one of the worst 15 get to keep their 1st round pick in that scenario. If the Yankees signed both Burnett and Sabathia, then the Jays would get NY's 2nd round pick and the Brewers would get NY's first.

At this rate, I just hope Burnett is ranked Type A. I remember Ted Lilly, coming off a 15-win season, was ranked Type B a few years ago, so the Jays only got a sandwich pick for him, which was essentially a waste. They were better off trading him. Hopefully it's not the same situation with Burnett.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#23 » by evilRyu » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:33 pm

Thanks MB for the clear-up. There are a lot of technicalities.

Is there some sort of "criteria" or "quota" that a player needs to meet in order to be placed as Type A, B, C, etc free agents? Is it stats-driven?

Anyway, I'd definitely take the draft picks, considering it won't be JP drafting!!!!!
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#24 » by Schad » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:35 am

Michael Bradley wrote:
At this rate, I just hope Burnett is ranked Type A. I remember Ted Lilly, coming off a 15-win season, was ranked Type B a few years ago, so the Jays only got a sandwich pick for him, which was essentially a waste. They were better off trading him. Hopefully it's not the same situation with Burnett.


It's probably nip and tuck; I don't think that Elias releases their formula, so I have no idea what weight they place on ERA and WHIP vs. wins vs. other categorical rankings. The only thing I have to go by is last year's rankings...Burnett finished at 71.518, with the cutoff for Class A for AL pitchers at 75.099 (17 pitchers made it). As a frame of reference, Joe Blanton made Class A with very mediocre two-year ERA, WHIP, K/9 and BB/9 numbers but 28 wins over the two years and a bucketload of innings pitched. That probably bodes well for AJ if he can get to 18-19 wins.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#25 » by Michael Bradley » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:26 pm

Do they weigh the previous two years or three years? I thought it was three. If it is two, then that explains why Lilly was Type B (he stunk in 2005, while pitching well in 2004 and 2006). If it is two, then Burnett is probably Type-A since he pitched 160+ innings in 2007 and is likely to top 200 this year with high K rates and a good W/L record. I do remember reading that Burnett would not have been Type A after last season (as you said), which is why I am concerned that he may not qualify this year either, but given the type of year he's had (ERA aside), I'm hopeful he gets weighted more favorably.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#26 » by Schad » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:41 pm

Michael Bradley wrote:Do they weigh the previous two years or three years? I thought it was three. If it is two, then that explains why Lilly was Type B (he stunk in 2005, while pitching well in 2004 and 2006). If it is two, then Burnett is probably Type-A since he pitched 160+ innings in 2007 and is likely to top 200 this year with high K rates and a good W/L record. I do remember reading that Burnett would not have been Type A after last season (as you said), which is why I am concerned that he may not qualify this year either, but given the type of year he's had (ERA aside), I'm hopeful he gets weighted more favorably.


It's the two-year averages, unless I'm very much mistaken. And AJ's two-years are solid; I have him at a running tally of 53 starts (344.3 IP), a 26-17 record, 4.18 ERA (ERA+ of ~105)/1.30 WHIP and 361 Ks.

FWIW, I found a couple sites quoting from Keith Law's Insider blog (third-hand quasi-knowledge!) that stated the cats used as total starts, IP, wins and WL%, ERA and strikeouts, with absolutely no idea of the weight placed on each. Leaving WHIP out of the equation definitely benefits AJ (and K/BB...does this formula seem rather outdated to anyone else? It looks bound to skew toward pitchers on good teams), and most of those categories break in his favour...even ERA, his weakest area, grades out above average. His DL stint last year hurts to a degree, but he should approach 370 IP over the last two years, so no harm done there. AJ's WL% is over .600 and he's a strikeout machine, so he has a good shot.

Also, I'm fairly sure that the ratings are league-dependent (makes sense...hard to compare AL/NL pitching). If so, AJ gets a boost from the fact that Santana, Sabathia, Blanton and Haren have all departed in the past year, which thins the herd of good pitching somewhat.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#27 » by Schad » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:49 pm

Fun tracker: this site is doing running estimates of the Elias player rankings. Pitchers haven't been posted yet...catcher has, though, and Zaun clocks in as the final type B on the list, with Barajas non-comp right now.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#28 » by mouse » Tue Sep 2, 2008 7:57 pm

A.L. starters rankings have been added. Burnett got the 5th highest ranking for A.L. starters.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#29 » by evilRyu » Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:26 am

sweet, Type A!!
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#30 » by Schad » Wed Sep 3, 2008 4:23 am

Wow, that's great news...he can't **** that up, even with Burnett-like effort. I thought that the many AL-to-NL trades might put him over the top, but he looks to be well clear. Two more prospects can't hurt in rebuilding the ailing system, especially if management finally shows some sense and uses the money saved to consider some above slot kids if need be.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#31 » by Peteros » Wed Sep 3, 2008 8:11 pm

What is this Projected Elias Rankings all about? How does it benefit our team?
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#32 » by mouse » Thu Sep 4, 2008 12:31 am

Peteros wrote:What is this Projected Elias Rankings all about? How does it benefit our team?


"Teams can earn Compensatory picks in the draft based on departing free agents. Free Agents are ranked by the Elias Sports Bureau based on their previous two years of playing, and against players of similar positions. The top 20% of free agents are considered 'Type A' free agents, and the following 20% are 'Type B' free agents. Type A free agents will get their former team a supplemental round pick between the first and second rounds, and a compensatory pick from the signing team. Type B free agents get their former team just a supplemental round pick. To earn a compensatory pick, a free agent must either be signed before the arbitration deadline in early December, or be offered arbitration by their former team but still sign with someone else.

Compensatory picks that one team gives another via this method are the highest available pick that team has. If a team owes two other teams draft picks via Type A free agents, the team whose departing player had a higher score gets the higher ranked pick. A team cannot lose picks it has earned via compensation. Also, the first 15 picks in the draft cannot be lost via compensation, so a team that is in that rank would give up their second round pick.

The order of the supplemental round between the first and second rounds is determined by inverse order of the previous year's standings. All the Type A picks are done first, and then the order resets for all the Type B compensation picks.

Teams can also earn compensation for unsigned picks from the previous year's draft. If a team doesn't sign a first or second round pick, they will get to pick at the same slot plus one the following year. For instance, if the team with the #5 pick does not sign that player, they would have the #6 pick the following year. The regular draft order would continue around those picks. For compensation for not signing a third round pick, teams would get a pick in a supplemental round between the third and fourth rounds. If a team fails to sign a player with one of these compensated picks, there is no compensation the following year."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Leag ... tory_Picks
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#33 » by Schad » Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:14 am

Peteros wrote:What is this Projected Elias Rankings all about? How does it benefit our team?


At the end of the year, Elias ranks all players in each league within their positional groups, and assigns classifications (Type-A, Type-B, N/A) to them based upon their performance. This determines the type of compensation to which the team would be entitled if said player was offered arbitration, declined, and entered free agency...Type A free agents entitle the team to a first and second round draft pick from the signing team; if that 1st rounder is in the top 15, it becomes a supplementary round pick and a second rounder.

As a Type-A free agent to be, if Burnett opts out of his contract (and I would expect him to...he could get a big payday) Toronto would get two compensatory picks in return. Assuming that only good teams would blow that much cash on him, the Jays are likely looking at an additional pick between 15-30 in next June's draft, and another between 70-90, depending on off-season movement.

Given the nature of MLB drafts, it's more likely than not that the two picks produce little, if anything. But the farm system is still desperately thin, and this gives the team a chance to a) add talent, b) cut salary at the ML level, and c) acquire players who'll be cost-controlled for the better part of a decade. And the last time Toronto got extra picks, when Speier bolted, the end result was JP Arencibia and Eric Eiland.

Basically, it's the type of thing that won't have any effect on the team for years...and by the time it does, no one will remember how those picks came about. But judicious management of the free agent market is the reason that a couple teams (Oakland, most notably) always seem to have more than their fair share of cheap, useful players coming down the turnpike.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#34 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:23 pm

Draft pick compensation is definitely hit or miss. Ideally a team would probably prefer trading for a more established prospect, but this can be a decent way of adding assets to a team's farm system.

Just for fun, here is what the Jays have drafted as compensation since 1990. Definitely a mixed bag. The player they lost to free agency is underlined.

Frank Catalanotto:Kevin Ahrens and Justin Jackson
Justin Speier: Brett Cecil and Eric Eiland
Ted Lilly: Trystan Magnuson
Kelvim Escobar: Adam Lind and Zach Jackson
Graeme Lloyd: Dustin McGowan and Pete Bauer
Roberto Alomar: Joe Lawrence and Pete Tucci
Devon White: Brent Abernathy and Clayton Andrews
Tom Henke: Chris Carpenter and Jeremy Lee
David Cone: Matt Farner, Anthony Medrano
Jimmy Key: Mark Lukasiewicz, Mike Romano
Manny Lee: Ryan Jones
Tom Candiotti: Shannon Stewart and Brandon Cromer
Bud Black: Shawn Green and Dante Powell
George Bell: Jeff Ware and Trevor Mallory
Lloyd Moseby: Tim Hyers
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#35 » by Holmes » Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:29 pm

Jeff Ware. Damn that's a blast from the past. What a bust. He has got to be the Blue Jay with the worst BB/K ratio in franchise history.
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#36 » by evilRyu » Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:07 pm

lol at Jeff Ware..... my gosh... Michael Bradley, where did you come up with that list?
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#37 » by evilRyu » Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:10 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:As a Type-A free agent to be, if Burnett opts out of his contract (and I would expect him to...he could get a big payday) Toronto would get two compensatory picks in return. Assuming that only good teams would blow that much cash on him, the Jays are likely looking at an additional pick between 15-30 in next June's draft, and another between 70-90, depending on off-season movement.


Wouldn't the 2nd compensated pick be a sandwich pick, thus in between the 1st & 2nd round? Why would it be between 70-90? Would'nt it more be between 30-50?
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Re: Blue Jays GM: Burnett  

Post#38 » by Schad » Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:20 am

evilRyu wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:As a Type-A free agent to be, if Burnett opts out of his contract (and I would expect him to...he could get a big payday) Toronto would get two compensatory picks in return. Assuming that only good teams would blow that much cash on him, the Jays are likely looking at an additional pick between 15-30 in next June's draft, and another between 70-90, depending on off-season movement.


Wouldn't the 2nd compensated pick be a sandwich pick, thus in between the 1st & 2nd round? Why would it be between 70-90? Would'nt it more be between 30-50?


Yep, you're right, because I managed to roll two scenarios into one. If a good team signs Burnett, it's likely to be 15-30 and 30-50. If a bad team signs him, it'll be 30-45 and probably in the 55-70 range.
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