Arguments for/against ousting JP Ricciardi

[Alfred]

I count myself relatively on the "get rid of him" bandwagon, but I'm willing to entertain arguments the other way. I'd like people with a broader Jays knowledge than myself compiling a list of why we should and why we shouldn't get rid of him.

Structure your posts like this:

Keep:
-blah
-blah
-blah

Get Rid of:
-blah
-blah
-blah

[Nolan]

I really can't think of any reasons to keep him, the bad he's done for us far out ways the good.

[Relentless88]

One good thing he did was get rid of Frank Thomas. Imagine paying him 9 million next season. Another was drafting Travis Snider, which wasn't hard. Other than that I can't think of any other reasons at the moment.

[RapsFanInVA]

We have a good pitching staff. And great end-of-the-year-out-of-contention hitters.

But due to the last 7 or so years of dwelling in mediocrity, I'd have to say it's time for something new.

Goodbye J.P.

[SCF99]

I would consider myself on the dump him wagon,but wouldn't be the end of the world if he stayed... he seems to put a good pitching staff together...not scared to correct his mistakes(dumping frank thomas,mench stewert).....He hasn't sold the farm to get some big name i f they are in any kind of contention,

Faults..... hasn't made much of a farm to sell,,tries to re-incarnate old has beens(see Frank Thomas, Mench,Stewert) some day this might work but so far not,,seems to be scared to make the big block buster to put us over the competitve edge,or maybe not through a trade but just a move to get the guy who is adifference maker, the guy who seems to come up with a clutch hit consistantly,,I don't think VW is the answer here,although Glaus or even Rolen wou;ld be considered good attempts,,hung on to Gibbons to long

[Schad]

I'll start with the bad.

Cons:

- No real plan. Ricciardi has neither attempted to rebuild, nor compete, and no two moves seem connected. That's, uh, confusing.

- Over-valued replacement players (most pathetic pun ever). Our minor league system has sucked at the top end for a few years...but do we really need a plethora of 30+ bench jockeys making $1-2m a year? This is a pretty mild complaint, but the Scutaros and Claytons and Ohkas et al are no better than the average 27 year old available in the Rule 5 draft or on the waiver wire. Or demonstrably worse. Because someone was an average hitter or pitcher five years ago doesn't mean that they have any business being paid three times the minimum salary to produce 80% as much.

- Delusional. This is a team capable of competing for third in the division every year, no more and no less. Judging by his public appearances, JP really believes that this team (with little overhaul) can make the playoffs. Ain't never gonna maybe happen.


Pros:

- The draft. Odd, eh? This has become one of his strengths, though his past successes likely owe more to our very solid scouting department (which generally handles rounds 2-7,530) than to JP. That caveat thrown out, our picks in the top-3 rounds have produced David Bush, Aaron Hill, Shaun Marcum, David Purcey, Adam Lind, Travis Snider, and the 2007 babies. Not great by any stretch...but check out the Rangers'/Pirates' draft history (and engage your gag reflex) before passing judgment on what a truly bad drafting history looks like. At best, JP has been average overall (probably below average)...but as a below average GM, that's a borderline strength.

- The bullpen. Ricciardi really deserves credit here...look at the turnover year-to-year, and notice how many useless pitchers have proven to be solid relievers in Toronto. When it comes to cheap arms, scrap heap is definitely JP's friend. Unless they start and have nicknames like "Way Back". Not so good there.

- Getting the kids under contract. Hill and Rios are the only real examples thus far, but JP has shown a willingness to hand out below-market, long-term deals when they're young, to avoid situations where he could end up blowing the bank, a la Wells. That's the beauty of those deals; Rios has underachieved and Hill has been injured, yet the contracts are still palatable. If JP is around long enough to work out similar deals with the young 'uns, the team will be in good stead for years to come.

[Guy Smiley]

How many managers have been employed during JP's tenure?

[Dr Octagon]

Keep, because:
- great pitching, I'll give him that, but nothing else

Get Rid of, because:
- basically a .500 team
- 7 years and nothing
- in love with stiffs
- bunch of excuses
- no cojones to make moves
- no plan
- thinks this is a good team

[whiterasta80]

Fire him:

1. Managers- with the exception of Cito (who most believe was not his choice) he has never picked a manager who I've belived was doing a good job

2. Trades- Either through failing to pull the trigger on no-brainer deals (Ted Lilly for Ryan Howard), failing to provide enough insentive when a team is on the fence (Rios for Lincecum). He hasn't exactly set the world on fire with the trades he has made either

3. His Penchance for dealing with Oakland- He just seems to have to deal with Billy Beane EVERY YEAR. Hinske, Koch, Lilly, Scutaro... it never ends.

4. His arrogance and his handling of the media- Let's see, he's lied to us-- at least twice. Lied to a future HOFer to save money, insulted a 45 HR guy who is a pending free agent who would look awesome in our lineup, questioned the desire of his #2 starter and big free agent signing, and generally treats anyone who addresses him as stupid. He's costing us credibility with free agents and generally just p'ing everyone he talks to off. If he'd taken us to the playoffs EVEN ONCE we might be able to overlook that. And If I have to hear him complain about the AL East one more time I'll snap.

5. Vernon's contract: There's a good chance that guy might be an albatross down the road.

Keep him

1. The Draft: I'll do Schad one better and say that I think this is a strength for him (and his scouts). Some of the early picks may have taken longer to develop but it appears that he is regularly producing decent prospects at this stage. And we are signing the guys we do pick.

2. Progress: It may have taken a little longer than expected but there is an air about this season that suggests that perhaps the team is getting closer. How much of that is the Yanks collapse and the Red Sox Injury troubles is a matter of debate.

3. The Bullpen: See what Schad wrote- I have nothing to add

4. Cons: no real plan-- Even when he finds solutions to his problems (Eckstein this year) it seems like he just kinda fell into it. He also continuously has to make up for previous mistakes. He paid Boston to take Hinske, then had to add Matt Stairs, Wilkerson, Mench, Bautista etc... to cover 1B/3B/OF over the next few seasons. He bought out Reed Johnson, then paid the equivalent financially for Shannon Stewart, Kevin Mench, and Brad Wilkerson to produce a combined nothing.

5. He tends to be in love with players for too long. If Mench and Wilkerson were here 3-4 years ago they'd be very productive Blue Jays. But Mench and Wilko were washed up long before being released and JP still picked them up. Stewart and Thomas were productive in the years before coming here but he still could have seen downturns coming.

[Raptor04]

I see no reason AT ALL to keep him. Thre really are no pros. And I'm not the type that's all over a manager or GM if we don't do good, but he clearly can't lead a team/franchise.

Most of our sucess has been based off players overachieving and stringing together wins near the end of the season to take attention off him. He's never signed a player to whom has made a massive impact on this franchise, and whoever he did resign was already here in the first place. Actually, I owe it to the managers and coaches (yeah, even Gibbions crew was decent) for developing guys far from where hey were at when they were signed. Like said before, he's had no real plan whatsoever (TRY and have a good season and stay close with the Yanks/BoSox was his "plan" untill the team "develops"). I also give him no credit on the drafting, because that's all credit to the scouts. He's been a controversial GM who's said many ludacris things in the past.

Amd when we got the payroll upgrade a few years ago, who does he go out and sign? AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan, maybe 2 of the biggest dissapointments on the team in the last few years (yes, even Burnett is just playing good in a contract year and usually gets more than enough run support to back him up, and when he has pitched good, it's never really mattered; I don't think you can count this stretch where the Jays are close to the Sox as a season defining time because our chances are nil to zero).

I will give him credit for one thing only, bringing back Cito Gaston. I dunno how muh credit is owed there (considering he let Cito choose the rest of the staff as he saw fit), but that's maybe the only thing he's done right in his managerial tenure.

Really, there's no reason left not to fire him. We can niether rebuild nor compete as long as JP's at the helm. Especially in a division this tight. We can't enter the season hoping for the best and expecting the most out of our group. We have got to put together a team we KNOW will be able to deliver in order to have a shot at the playoffs.

[Schad]

I have to disagree on Burnett and Ryan as disappointments. Burnett has been exactly what we should have expected: inconsistent from game-to-game and injury prone, but well above average overall. Here are his three-year numbers averaged out (with two starts remaining, likely):

78 starts (26/year avg.), 507.7 IP (169 IP/year avg.), ERA+ of 111, 1.28 WHIP, K/BB ratio of 2.7:1, average salary of $10.3m/year.

The injuries are the only real disappointment; otherwise Burnett has been an adequate #2 starter, earning his salary insofar as that's what adequate #2 starters make.

In hindsight, I do hate the Ryan signing...not because he has underperformed, but because it's totally pointless to blow that much money on a guy who pitches 70 innings a season. But to crucify Ricciardi on that point is to crucify every other GM in the league, all of whom feel the need to throw massive amounts of money at a single (often fragile) arm rather than split it between three above-average guys. And given JP's ability to identify cheap 'pen options, it's not a stretch to say that he could find three pitchers to duplicate 80% of Ryan's productivity over 200% of the innings...for less than 50% of the price.

Again, Ryan's downside has been the shoulder injury, and his control after returning; when healthy, however, he has been even better than advertised:

126 games (42/year avg.), 130.7 IP (43.5/year avg.), ERA+ of 244 (!), 1.10 WHIP, K/BB of 2.84:1, average salary of $9m a year.

The innings pitched are disappointing though attributable to bad fortune rather than GMing, the salary is ridiculous relative to worth but on par with Ryan's peers, and his performance when actually on the mound has been superb. Really, JP's only failing with regards to these two is following baseball orthodoxy. Firing him wouldn't help in that area, because lord knows his replacement would be just as eager to overpay closers and non-ace pitchers.

[tsherkin]

Hmm...

Pretty much everything important has been said; JP's been mediocre to average and has shown us now over 7 years what he can and cannot do. He hasn't had an extreme barrier in terms of team payroll and he hasn't shocked and awed us with any area of his abilities.

The 'pen is nice... our pitching staff in general, it's nice.

He was hired because the Jays wanted to emulate what Oakland was doing with Billy Beane (who, in case anyone didn't know, was a former teammate of Ricciardi's about a billion years ago in the Mets' farm system).

I was peeved when we didn't chase Delgado in free agency; he hit .270, cranked out 30+ homers, 99 RBI, was two seasons removed from an All-Star appearance, a Silver Slugger season and being 2nd in the MVP race and has been consistently producing 33+/100 since then. We could've definitedly used his power.

Ryan was a mistake, a costly one. He was never a good idea. Burnett was an interesting idea in principle but a gamble that failed. He was injury-prone; he had two seasons where he played 24 total games, then he had a full 32-game season with Florida and we hooked him. Sounds a lot like him in Toronto: 21 GP, 25 GP, 32 GP with two starts to go... Anyway.

Glaus and Overbay were decent moves (and the Rolen trade was nice).

Not terribly pleased about "BJ has a back problem" when he was going to have Tommy John surgery... "There are no lies if we know the truth," and all that. The Adam Dunn incident.

I think at any point when a guy has had 7 years to do something, the team has increased the payroll and such and he still hasn't managed to produce even a single wild card appearance, it's time for him to go. Our pitching is great... and it doesn't matter, because we've been out of the playoffs since the last time we won the World Series (go, go, decade-and-a-half playoff drought!).

I think it's time he left; we need a new approach. JP's built us a great pitching foundation, so know we need some more hitters, we need a better farm system, we need to not be afraid to pull the trigger on risky moves instead of being so conservative... We need someone else.

[SDM]

For:

- Terrible team spokesman... I don't think the majority of Jays fans trust him. He's lied about injuries (and when they came out, they made him look like a fool) and there were fiascoes resulting in complications/awkward situations with Thomas, Dunn, AJ, etc. If I were a coveted free agent looking to sign with a solid team, I wouldn't choose Toronto simply because of his personality.

- Does not seem to have a set mandate to improve the club. The club makes tiny strides, here and there, but doesn't seem to have a plan. Initially, he wanted low ceiling prospects (this may have to do with monetary restraints, more on that later), and now he's drafting high-ceiling guys. He made a splash in free agency one year, and nothing the next, even with a rising budget.

- Is not willing to make a splash via trade, seems a little gun shy. He's unwilling to give up on his star players in exchange for other star players. Delgado and Wells, when he was up for an extension, are examples of this. Rios for Lincecum, if it was true, is another example. His idea of a mutually beneficial move is a swap of declining, disgruntled third basemen, which leaves the Jays with, yes, a declining, disgruntled third baseman.

- Grows way too attached to fringe players. Sal Fasano and Jason Phillips have no place on a competitive club. McDonald could have been moved at the deadline for something (anything, really), but he kept onto him. He sings the praises of Scutaro, who is a league-average player.

- Hires coaches (specifically, with hitting in mind) whose skills do not mesh with the team. He's very much running the show himself, trying to make Wells, who has average, at best, plate patience, draw walks. Hiring Denbo, who is huge on pitch selection and the like, was a terrible idea for a freeswinging group. No one in the lineup has 100+BB potential. I think trying to change how grown men attack a baseball has set this team back. Tenace and Gaston and Murphy are helping, but it's not enough.

- His players have never complimented each other. The best hitters on this team, at the moment, are number three or number five hitters. We haven't had a #4 hitter, who could bat clean up on any other team, since Delgado. Glaus is pushing it.

- Likes his team too damn much. Year in, year out, you hear the same thing: great group, some luck, next year. He might make the odd change, but this goes back to his soft nature on trades that could present a problem in the court of public opinion and yield results as negative as they could be positive on the diamond. I'm not a fan of revolving lineups and I understand the need to show support and identify players to latch onto, but we're just not good enough. If a deal comes around, if a player can be released, I just don't trust Ricciardi to do what's best for the team. And honestly, if Rios for Cain was offered, he's a moron for not taking that deal.

AGAINST:

- Incredible at finding super cheap talent, honing it, and making it useful in terms of filling out the roster. Inglett, Carlson, Downs, Wolfe, Tallett, Accardo, all recent examples. Any of them have a spot on any other major league club. (However, there isn't a star amongst this group... Florida gets Dan Uggla, Minny gets Johan Santana, Toronto gets Brian Wolfe). Nevertheless, these guys are all quality and great finds.

- Drafting has become much better and is now almost a plus in our organization. There's some solid young talent on the way.

- Identifies high-priced talent well on the free agent market. I'll eat crow and say the Burnett signing was a success, as well as the Ryan signing. I think the Thomas signing was great, but for one year too many. Meche came around this year and would be a decent #2, as would Lilly. Didn't pull the trigger on Clement (or he wasn't interested, whatever).

- Ownership problems set the team back several years. The team had to cut payroll within the first couple years of his hire. This affects drafting, signings, trades, everything. I give him a mulligan for his first two years here. He couldn't do anything, even if he tried.

I think his skills are best served for being an assistant. He drafts and locates cheap, useful talent. Big whoop. Give me a star player.

[whiterasta80]

Regardless of whether Rios for Lincecum, Rios for Cain, Lilly for Howard etc... were ever offered straight up, there is ample evidence that those deals were at least discussed. Its at that point that you would up the ante (throwing Cecil into the Lincecum deal for instance). You aren't going to universally rip someone off (most of us said that Rios for Lincecum would be a rip off last winter) in every trade, but you can still win a trade that was deemed fair at the time. Aside from the Rolen/Glaus trade I'm not sure JP has ever known that philosophy.

[JN]

He can't manage a low budget team that well because his drafting skills are average at best.

He can't manage a hihger budget team. because given the extra money he seems to execute his plan haphazardly... i.e. there is no focus, there is no plan.

I think most of you have highlighted his strenths and weaknesses pretty well, although some are being generous in his strenghts even if they don't like the guy.

At the end of the day, though it no longer becomes an exercise of what you can and can't do. After a few years, results should not be the focus of such decisions. After seven years, results have to be the focus of making the decision.

He should be fired.