Players' roles in upcoming season

[Rasho Brezec]

Hi, guys, I've been watching Kings more closely last season, and I think they're one of the most interesting teams in the league with a promising future. My question is, now with Artest gone and a bunch of young prospects, what roles do you think certain players will have?

Kevin Martin as a 1st option is a no-brainer. The more interesting thing to see is who will be the 2nd option? Will Brad Miller step up and take that role or is that role reserved for Salmons, maybe even Beno? What do you expect of rookies and Hawes?

[pillwenney]

Actually Salmons may be the first option in the conventional use of the term. Don't be surprised if he gets more plays called for him than Kevin. Kevin's real expertise is scoring a lot despite not having his number called a lot. He just finds ways within the offense to score--not necessarily when a play is run for him-- and the fact that he is so efficient in doing this is what makes him such a powerful weapon.

Spencer - I expect him to improve obviously. I still think the main thing with him is just adding muscle. He won't be able to become a real force down low until he can hold position. But just getting used to the league should help him. He has shown many skills, he just needs to add weight and anxious need to prove himself that is so common in younger players.

Thompson - I expect Thompson to earn some minutes right away. He has shown a really nice ability to drive to the hoop to go with some really nice skill. I think adding a little bit of muscle but more importantly adding some grit and aggressiveness will be really key to him becoming a really fine player in this league.

Greene - I don't expect him to get a ton of minutes, and that's okay. Minutes are only valuable when you really know how to use them, and I don't think Donte is there yet--then again, I really don't know. But it seems he has a lot to learn before he'll be able to contribute to a successful team.

[KF10]

That is actually an interesting perspective mitch. About the 1st option. That can happen indeed, about Salmons receiving more touches than Martin. Martin is soo good w/o having the ball in his hands and Salmons thrives under isolation scenerios and can produce nicely (Like I previously stated in the past). Yeah, I do agree with you.

But then again, Martin was living under the shadow of a Artest-base offense last year. And Martin wanted the ball more in his hand often (later in the season iirc)and wanted to prove to Reggie that he can be "the man". And over the summer, Martin has alluded that he wanted to be the leader of this team and what not. Under this assumption, we can see Martin having the ball more in his hands ever before IMO.

And Spencer- I agree with mitch. Hawes need to gain more muscle mass to be effective down low.

Thompson- I do see him getting minutes but than again we have the whole PF/C glut.

Greene- I think he will receive the "Hawes treatment" like last year. Like for the first half of the season, he will play limited minutes. And later on to the season, he will receive more minutes and etc... Just the usual minute progression.

Miller- I can see him being more in the offense ever before. (There was a large post of mines detailing his role of the our offense...Our offense can be diverse IMO) In terms of high post play.

[Cruel_Ruin]

I don't think that Salmons will be the first option per se, but he will have the ball in his hands more than Martin, mainly because Salmons is so crappy when he doesn't get the ball. Though, if we need a bucket, Martin will have the ball because he's a more diverse scorer in general.

I expect Thompson to be the starter soon. This is mainly because he doesn't exactly have an superstar incumbent in Moore ahead of him. Thompson is (probably) already the better rebounder and defender, so if he really is mentally ready for the league (instead of the deer in headlights look) then he will start.

Hawes, on the other hand, will continue to back up Brad at the 5 spot until Brad is traded. I really doubt we'll keep Miller much longer, if not by the deadline then by the next summer. I can see the offense really running through Brad this year, with hopefully little dropoff as Hawes enters the game. Though Hawes' postgame really should add an element that we sorely missed before, especially if he adds enough lower body strength to hold position. He also needs to learn to be a bit more patient in the post, much of which is just experience.

So as the year goes on, I expect the rotation to end up forming like this:

Beno/Jackson/Brown
Martin/Garcia/Douby
Salmons/Garcia/Greene
Thompson/Moore/Shelden
Miller/Hawes

The main source of our offense should be pick and rolls with Martin/Salmons/Beno, with a healthy dose of Princeton from Brad/Thompson/Hawes. I think, eventually, the main offense will be the Princeton through Hawes/Thompson. But that may not be for a while as they develop.

I am really, really high on Thompson though. I'm hoping we really landed a diamond in the rough. Watching him in Summer league really reminded me of a Webber/KG type player; hopefully he can make that leap when his passing skills translate over.

[sackings916]

Im excited to see what type of offense the Kings will have this year with no Artest. Salmons is basically our only iso player which kind of scares me. At the same time I have a feeling Salmons will flourish with the ball in his hands so much which would increase his value. There's a decent chance the Kings have one of the biggest bargains in Salmons and a huge trading chip in the near future with would definitely help the rebuild.

As for Thompson I dont think he'll make a huge impact at first but I think he'll be solid as a rookie. I think he might be a little inconsistent offensively but show signs, but he'll always play with high energy and get on the boards since he has good size and athleticism.

[pillwenney]

Yeah I really think that in some respects, Salmons will simply take over Ron's role. I think the two are more alike offensively than some here believe--the main difference being that Salmons doesn't play in the post.

[SacKingZZZ]

Actually Salmons may be the first option in the conventional use of the term. Don't be surprised if he gets more plays called for him than Kevin. Kevin's real expertise is scoring a lot despite not having his number called a lot. He just finds ways within the offense to score--not necessarily when a play is run for him-- and the fact that he is so efficient in doing this is what makes him such a powerful weapon.

Spencer - I expect him to improve obviously. I still think the main thing with him is just adding muscle. He won't be able to become a real force down low until he can hold position. But just getting used to the league should help him. He has shown many skills, he just needs to add weight and anxious need to prove himself that is so common in younger players.

Thompson - I expect Thompson to earn some minutes right away. He has shown a really nice ability to drive to the hoop to go with some really nice skill. I think adding a little bit of muscle but more importantly adding some grit and aggressiveness will be really key to him becoming a really fine player in this league.

Greene - I don't expect him to get a ton of minutes, and that's okay. Minutes are only valuable when you really know how to use them, and I don't think Donte is there yet--then again, I really don't know. But it seems he has a lot to learn before he'll be able to contribute to a successful team.

I don't think it will be plays called for him, more like, since he's handling the ball so much he'll call them for himself. Good or bad? We'll see.

[SacKingZZZ]

That is actually an interesting perspective mitch. About the 1st option. That can happen indeed, about Salmons receiving more touches than Martin. Martin is soo good w/o having the ball in his hands and Salmons thrives under isolation scenerios and can produce nicely (Like I previously stated in the past). Yeah, I do agree with you.

But then again, Martin was living under the shadow of a Artest-base offense last year. And Martin wanted the ball more in his hand often (later in the season iirc)and wanted to prove to Reggie that he can be "the man". And over the summer, Martin has alluded that he wanted to be the leader of this team and what not. Under this assumption, we can see Martin having the ball more in his hands ever before IMO.

And Spencer- I agree with mitch. Hawes need to gain more muscle mass to be effective down low.

Thompson- I do see him getting minutes but than again we have the whole PF/C glut.

Greene- I think he will receive the "Hawes treatment" like last year. Like for the first half of the season, he will play limited minutes. And later on to the season, he will receive more minutes and etc... Just the usual minute progression.

Miller- I can see him being more in the offense ever before. (There was a large post of mines detailing his role of the our offense...Our offense can be diverse IMO) In terms of high post play.

This is right, I don't think he needs to add any weight. He bulked up as the season went on last year and from seeing him in the summer league where he was much more streamlined he seemed far more comfortable and athletic.

[KF10]

Yep. He cut down the weight and build on muscle mass over the summer. And it showed in the Summer League. And he needs to continue to do that. Hawes is actually athletic. People see him as a stiff or w/e...Which is NOT the case here.

[pillwenney]

That is actually an interesting perspective mitch. About the 1st option. That can happen indeed, about Salmons receiving more touches than Martin. Martin is soo good w/o having the ball in his hands and Salmons thrives under isolation scenerios and can produce nicely (Like I previously stated in the past). Yeah, I do agree with you.

But then again, Martin was living under the shadow of a Artest-base offense last year. And Martin wanted the ball more in his hand often (later in the season iirc)and wanted to prove to Reggie that he can be "the man". And over the summer, Martin has alluded that he wanted to be the leader of this team and what not. Under this assumption, we can see Martin having the ball more in his hands ever before IMO.

And Spencer- I agree with mitch. Hawes need to gain more muscle mass to be effective down low.

Thompson- I do see him getting minutes but than again we have the whole PF/C glut.

Greene- I think he will receive the "Hawes treatment" like last year. Like for the first half of the season, he will play limited minutes. And later on to the season, he will receive more minutes and etc... Just the usual minute progression.

Miller- I can see him being more in the offense ever before. (There was a large post of mines detailing his role of the our offense...Our offense can be diverse IMO) In terms of high post play.

This is right, I don't think he needs to add any weight. He bulked up as the season went on last year and from seeing him in the summer league where he was much more streamlined he seemed far more comfortable and athletic.

He lost fat, which is good, but he still has to gain a lot more muscle. There's a reason that Spencer shot under 40% in the freaking summer league, and it's not just because he's anxious. He can't get off the shots he wants in the post because he can't hold position. This will also help with getting position for rebounding and in certain matchups defensively.

[King Baller]

I expect Theus to let these guys run the fast break every chance they get. In the half court Salmons is a pretty good slasher with the ability to go to the hoop, pull up for the short jumper and kick it back out to the open man. Martin will get his shots in the flow of the game, which is best for him. Brad should be in the high post dishing to cutters or the open man. Beno will lead the break, look for the open guy, take it to the hoop when its clear and shoot the J. Moore/Thompson/Williams will defend the other teams post up threat, rebound and score when they can. Hawes will come in for Brad and do what Brad does plus score a little more in the post. Bobby and Cisco will be scoring sparks off the bench. Salmons and Cisco will defend the other teams best perimeter players. Douby could really find his spot if he would just be a pitbull of a defender on guards. Donte Greene should get a few minutes to show his skills. Bobby Brown will get spot minutes.

I think the best word to define the 2008/2009 Kings will be scrappers. They will need win the hustle stats every night to win. Should be fun to watch

KB

[SacKingZZZ]

That is actually an interesting perspective mitch. About the 1st option. That can happen indeed, about Salmons receiving more touches than Martin. Martin is soo good w/o having the ball in his hands and Salmons thrives under isolation scenerios and can produce nicely (Like I previously stated in the past). Yeah, I do agree with you.

But then again, Martin was living under the shadow of a Artest-base offense last year. And Martin wanted the ball more in his hand often (later in the season iirc)and wanted to prove to Reggie that he can be "the man". And over the summer, Martin has alluded that he wanted to be the leader of this team and what not. Under this assumption, we can see Martin having the ball more in his hands ever before IMO.

And Spencer- I agree with mitch. Hawes need to gain more muscle mass to be effective down low.

Thompson- I do see him getting minutes but than again we have the whole PF/C glut.

Greene- I think he will receive the "Hawes treatment" like last year. Like for the first half of the season, he will play limited minutes. And later on to the season, he will receive more minutes and etc... Just the usual minute progression.

Miller- I can see him being more in the offense ever before. (There was a large post of mines detailing his role of the our offense...Our offense can be diverse IMO) In terms of high post play.

This is right, I don't think he needs to add any weight. He bulked up as the season went on last year and from seeing him in the summer league where he was much more streamlined he seemed far more comfortable and athletic.

He lost fat, which is good, but he still has to gain a lot more muscle. There's a reason that Spencer shot under 40% in the freaking summer league, and it's not just because he's anxious. He can't get off the shots he wants in the post because he can't hold position. This will also help with getting position for rebounding and in certain matchups defensively.

He didn't shoot 40% because of that. Just about every shot he took, especially from mid-range and beyond, was either short or long. A clear sign of fatigue. And shooting a low % in summer league is very common for players with all the practices, workouts, etc. Summer league is great, you won't see guys hustling and thumping like that even in the playoffs. These are guys fighting for their NBA lives out there trying to get noticed and they expend of lot of energy in the process. Because of all that it doesn't always translate into pretty statistical results.

As for obtaining position, it isn't all about size. Look at Shareef Abdur-Rahim for example. He's one of the better players, or was, I have ever seen at getting position without simply out muscling his defender. I think Spencer could learn a lot from him. Spencers a finesse player. He can still be very successful in the post and his increased strength down the road should help that but I think he is what he is. He's more Kevin McHale then he is Shaq or Karl Malone.

[pillwenney]

It's not like he was just shooting jumpers. Spencer missed a ton of shots down low because he was in awkward positions and not able to clearly get the shots he wanted. Part of it was definitely the various affects of summer league, but regardless, no player with Spencer's post skills should be under 40% from the field unless something else is going wrong. His problem is that he can't use his post skills because you have to be in position to use them.

I'm not saying he needs to be Shaq, but right now, his strength clearly isn't where it needs to be--and that's fine for a player his age, but I think it's wrong to imply that he's fine where he is. Almost no player at his age is--especially big men. You can kind of get away with with wirey strength like SAR or McHale at PF, but Spencer isn't and won't be a PF--and he's also still not as strong as either of those guys were as of right now (he's still really quite weak).

[_SRV_]

Duncan is quite small for centers, but he manages to get his shot off, and is unguardable by them, I'm not buying the muscles argument.
Hawes' shot was just off most of the time, not related to position really.

[pillwenney]

Duncan is quite small for centers, but he manages to get his shot off, and is unguardable by them, I'm not buying the muscles argument.
Hawes' shot was just off most of the time, not related to position really.

Duncan isn't really small for a center and half the time he plays against PFs. And he can use his quickness against really big centers.

I think it's also important that, like CR said, it's largely about lower body strength--something often not seen very clearly on players that have it, but is nonetheless quite important.

[_SRV_]

So he manages to get a shot in the post whether it's his quickness or strength? Because I swear I watched him countless times scoring on Dallas' two defensively talented centers (who he is in fact very small compared to) and sticking a foul after the other to them, and most of the times it was posting up and rarely facing up, same goes for Shaq with LA/PHX, and Rasheed who is a PF but is definitely bigger than Dnucan.
And I'm choosing Duncan because he is the guy Hawes said he's designing his game after, they have similar build and supposed lack of strength.

[pillwenney]

So he manages to get a shot in the post whether it's his quickness or strength? Because I swear I watched him countless times scoring on Dallas' two defensively talented centers (who he is in fact very small compared to) and sticking a foul after the other to them, and most of the times it was posting up and rarely facing up, same goes for Shaq with LA/PHX, and Rasheed who is a PF but is definitely bigger than Dnucan.
And I'm choosing Duncan because he is the guy Hawes said he's designing his game after, they have similar build and supposed lack of strength.

Not necessarily--quickness is usually more of a face-up kind of thing, which Duncan has proven he is very capable of.

Let's go off of listed sizes

Duncan - 6' 11 260

Dampier - 6'11 265
Diop - 7' 280
Sheed - 6' 11 230

So Sheed is smaller than him and the only guy who is significantly larger than him Diop (if you want to call that significant). And with Dampier, I'd even say that Duncan is stronger in the lower body (since clearly Dampier has the stronger upper body), which is what is more important for getting position down low. And for what it's worth, Diop is known as one of the more effective defenders against Duncan. But that's not even my point--because I think you can get position against guys that are stronger than you--to a certain extent. But Spencer is 7' 245, and he has lost weight since he measured in at that last year. Duncan is considerably heavier, and appears to hold a lot of that weight in his legs. Spencer is strong enough to get good position against some guys, but definitely not enough of them right now IMO.

[SacKingZZZ]

It's not like he was just shooting jumpers. Spencer missed a ton of shots down low because he was in awkward positions and not able to clearly get the shots he wanted. Part of it was definitely the various affects of summer league, but regardless, no player with Spencer's post skills should be under 40% from the field unless something else is going wrong. His problem is that he can't use his post skills because you have to be in position to use them.

I'm not saying he needs to be Shaq, but right now, his strength clearly isn't where it needs to be--and that's fine for a player his age, but I think it's wrong to imply that he's fine where he is. Almost no player at his age is--especially big men. You can kind of get away with with wirey strength like SAR or McHale at PF, but Spencer isn't and won't be a PF--and he's also still not as strong as either of those guys were as of right now (he's still really quite weak).

I didn't. I do however think he is what he is, that he can be very successful at it, and it may be counterproductive to try to turn him into something else. The Tim Duncan comparison is a good one, and is the guy Spencer has patterned his game after. He is going to get position in the post by outmaneuvering his man. Sure he needs to get stronger, and that will help, once again my argument is that he needs to be as lean and athletic as possible. That will help him in the long run. I have already seen it, he looks much better at 240-245 than he does at 250-260. Spencer will be able to overpower smaller players eventually and outmaneuver the stronger ones.

[_SRV_]

So he manages to get a shot in the post whether it's his quickness or strength? Because I swear I watched him countless times scoring on Dallas' two defensively talented centers (who he is in fact very small compared to) and sticking a foul after the other to them, and most of the times it was posting up and rarely facing up, same goes for Shaq with LA/PHX, and Rasheed who is a PF but is definitely bigger than Dnucan.
And I'm choosing Duncan because he is the guy Hawes said he's designing his game after, they have similar build and supposed lack of strength.

Not necessarily--quickness is usually more of a face-up kind of thing, which Duncan has proven he is very capable of.

Let's go off of listed sizes

Duncan - 6' 11 260

Dampier - 6'11 265
Diop - 7' 280
Sheed - 6' 11 230

So Sheed is smaller than him and the only guy who is significantly larger than him Diop (if you want to call that significant). And with Dampier, I'd even say that Duncan is stronger in the lower body (since clearly Dampier has the stronger upper body), which is what is more important for getting position down low. And for what it's worth, Diop is known as one of the more effective defenders against Duncan. But that's not even my point--because I think you can get position against guys that are stronger than you--to a certain extent. But Spencer is 7' 245, and he has lost weight since he measured in at that last year. Duncan is considerably heavier, and appears to hold a lot of that weight in his legs. Spencer is strong enough to get good position against some guys, but definitely not enough of them right now IMO.

I think the validity of these listings is very questionable, I really don't have link to show, but I beg to differ at anyone saying Dampier has only 5 pounds on Duncan, besides I've read in a lot of places that Duncan's listed were generous so that he can fit with the big men in the league, because I think we can all agree that AI is not 6 feet, Ben Wallace is not 6'9 and Shaq has passed the 360 over his career, and is probably above 325, star listings aren't very reliable.

[Cruel_Ruin]

I didn't. I do however think he is what he is, that he can be very successful at it, and it may be counterproductive to try to turn him into something else. The Tim Duncan comparison is a good one, and is the guy Spencer has patterned his game after. He is going to get position in the post by outmaneuvering his man. Sure he needs to get stronger, and that will help, once again my argument is that he needs to be as lean and athletic as possible. That will help him in the long run. I have already seen it, he looks much better at 240-245 than he does at 250-260. Spencer will be able to overpower smaller players eventually and outmaneuver the stronger ones.

I don't think the point with Spencer is ever to put D12-esque biceps and shoulders on his frame. It's just right now, I think that Spencer has really skinny legs, and it hurts that he can't at least stay in position long enough to finish consistently. Lets just take a look at the TD example for a second.





He doesn't have the biggest upper body. He does use a lot of finesse in his moves. But the key to all of his success is that he has a thick trunk that he uses to maintain his position. It's pointless to have a finesse repertoire if you are constantly being pushed around, especially if you're trying to finish that slick drop-step or up-and-under. If you look at Spencer, on the other hand...





He's just not going to be able to finish anything as long as he's got such a skinny trunk and legs. His body is very much a "V" shape right now, coming from his upper body to his lower body. And his upper body isn't even all that thick. You can fake out your opponent all you want to, but when you get down to the post, if you want to be able to finish, you've got to be able to hold your position.

Charles Barkley was talking about it in last year's Detroit vs Orlando series. Dwight Howard could not back down Jason Maxiell; why? It's because he didn't have the lower body strength, because Maxiell had a lower center of gravity and was able to use his own strength as an advantage. Charles also mentioned that it was the key to his own success in the post ("it was my fat ass against their skinny legs").

If you want to be able to do anything in the post with your back to the basket, whether it's finesse moves or power moves, you've got to be able to hold your position long enough to finish.