Truth or Myth: Amare Stoudemire

[rsavaj]

http://slamonline.com/online/2008/09/tr ... toudemire/

Well, that made me happy. Let's hope Amare actually lives up to his own words.

[PHXTERROR1987]

there is no doubt that amare can do it, Just howard is a tough opponent to defeat.

[ma_falaa_50]

the olympics showed that howard is mostly athletecism. It really is up to amare this season. lets hope the ref hasnt bought into his foul prone image.

[tsherkin]

No, the Olympics showed that the team had other scorers and that FIBA ball doesn't cater to power-post players because of the officiating and the different court dimensions, there's a difference.

Howard remains a talented and skilled rebounder, a considerably better defender than Amare and a dangerous offensive tool. Certainly not as skilled as Amare there, but also lacking the benefit of a really helpful point guard (Jameer Freaking Nelson and Carlos Bunghole Arroyo, really?).

He's also a more skilled backdown scorer, which is of some value. He's a comparable transition weapon, though Amare's better in the secondary break because he can stick jumpers from just about anywhere under the arc consistently.

There's no question, Amare's a more skilled scorer right now but saying that Howard is mostly athleticism is just flat-out wrong, certainly when referencing the Olympics.

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

No, the Olympics showed that the team had other scorers and that FIBA ball doesn't cater to power-post players because of the officiating and the different court dimensions, there's a difference.

Howard remains a talented and skilled rebounder, a considerably better defender than Amare and a dangerous offensive tool. Certainly not as skilled as Amare there, but also lacking the benefit of a really helpful point guard (Jameer Freaking Nelson and Carlos Bunghole Arroyo, really?).

He's also a more skilled backdown scorer, which is of some value. He's a comparable transition weapon, though Amare's better in the secondary break because he can stick jumpers from just about anywhere under the arc consistently.

There's no question, Amare's a more skilled scorer right now but saying that Howard is mostly athleticism is just flat-out wrong, certainly when referencing the Olympics.

Couldn't have said it better myself Tylor

[-SDU-]

i thought it was Tyler?

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

Meh, it very well could be Stamford.

[TASTIC]

Oh Daneel, you so funny

I'd have a hard time taking Amare ahead of Howard...injury/age being the deciding factor...

[daveang]

If he can comeback from knee microsurgery, he can put his focus into becoming a better defender, better teammate, and better all-round.

More improvement for STAT this season as he keeps on getting better.

[HootieRules]

Howard DOES rely solely on his athleticism on offense considering he has no jumpshot whatsoever and his little hook shot isn't exactly consistent. This doesn't matter against weak teams with poor depth who are weak in transition because Howard can just overpower them. But when you get deep in the playoffs and face deep teams who can just pack it in and force you to make jumpshots and/or make you go to the line, Howard gets completely exposed offensively. Amare can step out and make a jumpshot and get to the foul line and make them so that's what sets the two of them apart. As a result I think Amare has the ability to put a team on his back offensively deep in the playoffs. I don't think Howard can do that.

I think the article is spot on because it is easier to make up for defensive deficiencies than offensive defeciencies just based on effort alone. A lot of people have said that if Amare becomes even an average defender he can become an MVP. He is capable of giving the effort, it remains to be seen if he ever will and if he has the intelligence to make up the rest of the ground (see not switching on the Finley 3 in the playoffs as exhibit A)

[daveang]

But when you get deep in the playoffs and face deep teams who can just pack it in and force you to make jumpshots and/or make you go to the line, Howard gets completely exposed offensively. Amare can step out and make a jumpshot and get to the foul line and make them so that's what sets the two of them apart. As a result I think Amare has the ability to put a team on his back offensively deep in the playoffs. I don't think Howard can do that.

Amare is a very solid FT shooter for a big man - something that definately works to his advantage. If he can work out defensively how to defend the player he is guarding without having to make contact and foul, then that helps him on the offensive end to know how to exploit a defender, not that he needs alot of practice trying to do that.

[tsherkin]

i thought it was Tyler?

It is.

Howard DOES rely solely on his athleticism on offense considering he has no jumpshot whatsoever and his little hook shot isn't exactly consistent.

A debatable point, since Howard dunks less than a third of his shots (a lot, of course). That leaves him shooting 52.6% eFG on close shots, which are primarily comprised of his hook shots. Certainly not as dangerous as his 93.1% eFG conversion rate on dunks, but still a staple... and an efficient one. He's also shown the development necessary in his footwork to indicate that it's quite notably not all athletic prowess that's going into his shots. He works in isos, he works against stronger defenses than Amare faces because of their relative caliber of teammates and point guard play (Nash vs.... Arroyo and Nelson) and Dwight happens to also be a very good offensive rebounder, which is a skill in and of itself that is not just athleticism (anticipation, timing, etc).

Like Shaq, Dwight has skill to go with his physical tools and one has to be oblivious to basic truths about basketball to miss this. No jump shot does not equate to relying entirely on athleticism.

This doesn't matter against weak teams with poor depth who are weak in transition because Howard can just overpower them. But when you get deep in the playoffs and face deep teams who can just pack it in and force you to make jumpshots and/or make you go to the line, Howard gets completely exposed offensively. Amare can step out and make a jumpshot and get to the foul line and make them so that's what sets the two of them apart. As a result I think Amare has the ability to put a team on his back offensively deep in the playoffs. I don't think Howard can do that.

Hmm. Amare definitely has the superior mid-range skill set, that much is clear. Carry a team deep in the playoffs... hmm. I guess we'll get a better eye for Amare without Nash at the present time this year, since Nash figures to sit a lot more.

I think the question of who could carry a team on their backs in the playoffs offensively is of dubious value; lest we forget, Shaq AND Penny "carried" Orlando to a 3-game sweep at the hands of the Pacers one year... and Shaq dropped 21/13 on over 53% FG, over 10 FTA/g. Of course, that was in his 2nd and Penny's 1st season and they'd go to the Finals the year after, but my point is that the hypothetical of who could carry an offense deep in the playoffs is of questionable value in this comparison.

Amare could certainly score a lot, he's done this already. But Amare scoring a lot doesn't always translate into wins, as Phoenix's matchups with San Antonio highlight.

Three times (04-05, 06-07 and 07-08), Amare has gone for broke in the San Antonio series and they've gone 4-12 against the Spurs in the playoffs. They were smoked 4-1 in the WCFs back in '05, then 4-2 in the WSFs in '07 and most recently, 4-1 in the 1st round.

Amare's series averages:

2005: 37 ppg, 55% FG, 25.8 FGA/g, 10.2 FTA/g (84.3%)
2007: 26.4 ppg, 50% FG, 18.4 FGA/g, 9.6 FTA/g (81.3%); avg skewed by Game 6 (38 pts), 23.5 ppg before
2008: 23.2 ppg, 48.5% FG, 19.8 FGA/g, 6 FTA/g (63.3%)*

* Amare notably flamed out at the end of the series. His final two games were a 3/11 performance and a 6/14 performance (shooting 1/3 and 3/5 from the line), averaging 11 ppg as the Suns were closed out.

So while I don't want to try and use this as evidence that Amare is anything other than a spectacular player, I do want to draw attention to the comparable scenarios of Dwight facing Detroit and seeing his offensive production dip compared to his series against Toronto and Amare facing off against a Spurs squad largely content to leave him in isolation with Tim Duncan and to slow everyone else down. His numbers, except in that last series, are padded and that appears to showcase his ability to explode in the playoffs but it hasn't been helpful; 4-12 isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of his ability to carry a team on his back offensively. And in the matchups Phoenix one, was it really Amare that always made the difference? Contributed, surely, but I wouldn't say that he was the single deciding factor the way you're implying he can be.

Dwight hasn't developed a jumper yet and Amare already had a pretty reliable jumper at a comparable age (22 for Amare was the 04-05 season).

I think the article is spot on because it is easier to make up for defensive deficiencies than offensive defeciencies just based on effort alone. A lot of people have said that if Amare becomes even an average defender he can become an MVP. He is capable of giving the effort, it remains to be seen if he ever will and if he has the intelligence to make up the rest of the ground (see not switching on the Finley 3 in the playoffs as exhibit A)

Amare's effort on D is a gigantic red flag. I don't know that him being an average defender would make him an MVP, I think that's a stretch personally, but I do think that I'll believe his newfound commitment to defense when I see it. It would certainly make him a much better player and I'll grant, if Amare continues to score the way he does now whilst defending at an average level, then he'd be pretty clearly more valuable than Dwight unless you're asking the "What would Dwight do in Phoenix" question, which is significant.

[TXSun]

Amare has better Ofense and DHoward has better Defense. I don't think one is better than the other at this point. Amare is as athletic as DHoward. Seen these 2 in the front court of team USA would fantastic.

[TASTIC]

^Amare's not as athletic as Howard.

Pre-injury definitely he was, but as of right now I think Howard> any other big, athletically.

And as others have said, if you put Nash with Howard...WOWsers

[tsherkin]

Amare has better Ofense and DHoward has better Defense. I don't think one is better than the other at this point. Amare is as athletic as DHoward. Seen these 2 in the front court of team USA would fantastic.

Given the difference in weight, I don't think it's accurate to describe Amare as "more athletic," since Howard displays comparable vertical lift and overall mobility despite being some 40-45 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller.

I'd say they evidence comparable athleticism, with perhaps a nod to Dwight for being capable of similar things despite being MUCH larger.