Week 2: Colts @ Vikings Noon

[Worm Guts]

Other than their insistence on handing the keys over to Jackson in the first place, I can't blame the coaches all that much. There's only so much you can do with possibly the worst starting quarterback in the NFL. As the old saying goes, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken isht.

It didn't work, but they were just trying to avoid putting Jackson in a position to lose the game for us by making a crucial mistake -- always a very real possibility with him -- and hopefully grind out the win.

You have to blame the coaching staff. They chose to bring back Jackson as the starter which should mean they think enough of him to let him throw the ball down field.

[Devilzsidewalk]

exact same team as last year. No passing game, poor pass defense, horrid coaching.

I know its possible to win a superbowl with a conservative lame passing game as long as you have great special teams, defense, and running game ala the Ravens' SB run, but why would you purposely go into a season with that mentality? It should be a midseason last resort adjustment after trying in earnest to get a legitimate QB and passing game going in the offseason like a normal team.

Childress has done this every year since he got in Minnesota with Brad Johnson and now TJ, he seems to derive some sort of satisfaction in taking a QB with the absolute minimal ability to run his alleged WCO, and try to win games without ever completing a pass past 12 yards.

The 3rd and 5 and he tries to run the ball? You really think you're going to get to a superbowl with this kind of mindset? And the obvious bootleg to the right, it was obvious it was either going to be a bootleg or quick slant, and he plays right into what everybody already knew.

I've never seen a team so obnoxiously content with their horrible passing game. At least the Ravens made attempts to get a good QB with the drafting of Boller and trade for McNair. This team drafts a 1AA QB and doesn't even bother with a contingency plan and just screws around with filler like Drew Henson and Bollinger. I can handle the drafting of TJ, but you got to get at least a quasi-starter backup until he proves his development.

Brad Childress......

[Sedale Threatt]

Other than their insistence on handing the keys over to Jackson in the first place, I can't blame the coaches all that much. There's only so much you can do with possibly the worst starting quarterback in the NFL. As the old saying goes, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken isht.

It didn't work, but they were just trying to avoid putting Jackson in a position to lose the game for us by making a crucial mistake -- always a very real possibility with him -- and hopefully grind out the win.

You have to blame the coaching staff. They chose to bring back Jackson as the starter which should mean they think enough of him to let him throw the ball down field.

I think I pointed that out at the beginning of my post. Plain as day.

I'll flesh it out even more and say that Childress is probably going to cost himself the only NFL head coaching job he's likely to ever get by hooking his wagon to a I-AA project. He appears to have made a huge mistake in that regard, especially in light of what a previous poster pointed out -- this team is ready to win now. We don't have time to wait for this kid to develop. We had any number of options we could have explored in the offseason, and we blew it. Clearly.

That said, the rest of my post was aimed at a previous poster blaming the loss on play-calling, which in my opinion is one of the shallowest criticisms and most overrated facets of football. 95 percent of the game is based on execution -- if all 11 guys do their job, it doesn't matter what play you call. Right now, we've got one or two who aren't, and it's costing us big time.

Still, I suppose it's a chicken or the egg thing. The staff did what they had to do in terms of trying to grind out the win and avoid mistakes in the passing game, which is a very valid strategy in light of what we have at QB. But, as we both agree, the fact that we were in that situation to begin with is because of personnel decisions the coaching staff has made. So, obviously, they deserve blame.

Bottom line -- a good, complete team wins that game by at least 14 points. But to blow it, at home no less, is pretty piss poor. Nobody except for Peterson and select members of the defense should be able to look themselves in the mirror and feel good about what happened on Sunday. Including the staff.

[deeney0]

It's hard to evaluate Tarvaris when the receivers don't get open and don't hold on to balls. Again, though, passing on third and short is just asking for shjt to happen. Just. Run. The. Ball.

We ran the ball plenty, Peterson got 29 carries. I don't know if it's more Tarvaris or the play calling, but we need a mid-range passing. 3rd and 5 or less should be converted at a 50-60 % clip.

Peterson got the ball enough, but it was too much on 1st down and not enough on third. I see no reason not to give the ball to AD on 3rd and 3, 3rd and 4 situations. And Chester, by far this team's 2nd best offensive threat, hasn't gotten his number called nearly enough through two games.

[Worm Guts]

I think I pointed that out at the beginning of my post. Plain as day.

I'll flesh it out even more and say that Childress is probably going to cost himself the only NFL head coaching job he's likely to ever get by hooking his wagon to a I-AA project. He appears to have made a huge mistake in that regard, especially in light of what a previous poster pointed out -- this team is ready to win now. We don't have time to wait for this kid to develop. We had any number of options we could have explored in the offseason, and we blew it. Clearly.

That said, the rest of my post was aimed at a previous poster blaming the loss on play-calling, which in my opinion is one of the shallowest criticisms and most overrated facets of football. 95 percent of the game is based on execution -- if all 11 guys do their job, it doesn't matter what play you call. Right now, we've got one or two who aren't, and it's costing us big time.

Still, I suppose it's a chicken or the egg thing. The staff did what they had to do in terms of trying to grind out the win and avoid mistakes in the passing game, which is a very valid strategy in light of what we have at QB. But, as we both agree, the fact that we were in that situation to begin with is because of personnel decisions the coaching staff has made. So, obviously, they deserve blame.

Bottom line -- a good, complete team wins that game by at least 14 points. But to blow it, at home no less, is pretty piss poor. Nobody except for Peterson and select members of the defense should be able to look themselves in the mirror and feel good about what happened on Sunday.

My problem with your original post that you said it was acceptable for the coaching staff to try and hide Tarvaris because he's the worst QB in the NFL. Once you've made him the starter, mistake or not, then it's just compounding that mistake not to let him throw ball down field. Either put some faith in Tavaris to make a play, or get him out of there.

[Worm Guts]

It's hard to evaluate Tarvaris when the receivers don't get open and don't hold on to balls. Again, though, passing on third and short is just asking for shjt to happen. Just. Run. The. Ball.

We ran the ball plenty, Peterson got 29 carries. I don't know if it's more Tarvaris or the play calling, but we need a mid-range passing. 3rd and 5 or less should be converted at a 50-60 % clip.

Peterson got the ball enough, but it was too much on 1st down and not enough on third. I see no reason not to give the ball to AD on 3rd and 3, 3rd and 4 situations. And Chester, by far this team's 2nd best offensive threat, hasn't gotten his number called nearly enough through two games.

I don't think handing the ball off on third and 3 is going to solve any of our problems, especially if teams are stacking the box. We need to be able to pass for first downs in those situations. If we can't, we're not going anywhere anyway.

[hermes]

a positive i think we can take away from this game is that the pass rush has significantly improved ared Allen was amazing


against a make-shift offensive line

[Sedale Threatt]

My problem with your original post that you said it was acceptable for the coaching staff to try and hide Tarvaris because he's the worst QB in the NFL. Once you've made him the starter, mistake or not, then it's just compounding that mistake not to let him throw ball down field. Either put some faith in Tavaris to make a play, or get him out of there.

I'm not sure I said it was acceptable as much as I said, or was attempting to say, that grinding out this particular game with Peterson was a better option than putting it in the hands of a QB who is incapable of consistently making plays downfield without risking turnovers.

But I totally agree with the bottom line, which is how completely and utterly pointless it is to send Jackson out there if you don't have confidence in him, which the staff clearly does not.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I see Jackson getting benched, because of all the time they've invested in developing him, until it's too late. It's a shame, because this is a good football team, with the glaring exception of one position. Unfortunately, that one position just happens to be the most important.

[deeney0]

I don't think handing the ball off on third and 3 is going to solve any of our problems, especially if teams are stacking the box. We need to be able to pass for first downs in those situations. If we can't, we're not going anywhere anyway.

I disagree. This team can be special when it comes to running the ball; it might already be. Teams are going to stack the box regardless. That's the kind of offensive cretivity we need - running 70% of the time or more. This team is not built for balance. AD doesn't need to get the ball more, but more Chester, more designed Tarvaris rushes, more handing to Tapeh, more reverses, etc, etc.

[Worm Guts]

I don't think handing the ball off on third and 3 is going to solve any of our problems, especially if teams are stacking the box. We need to be able to pass for first downs in those situations. If we can't, we're not going anywhere anyway.

I disagree. This team can be special when it comes to running the ball; it might already be. Teams are going to stack the box regardless. That's the kind of offensive cretivity we need - running 70% of the time or more. This team is not built for balance. AD doesn't need to get the ball more, but more Chester, more designed Tarvaris rushes, more handing to Tapeh, more reverses, etc, etc.

The Vikings are elite at running the ball, but it's so much easier to move the ball through the air. Even last year, the Vikings averaged more yards on a Tarvaris Jackson pass attempt than they did an Adrian Peterson run. I don't think anyone can be successful in the NFL running the ball 70% of the time.

[hermes]

I don't think handing the ball off on third and 3 is going to solve any of our problems, especially if teams are stacking the box. We need to be able to pass for first downs in those situations. If we can't, we're not going anywhere anyway.

I disagree. This team can be special when it comes to running the ball; it might already be. Teams are going to stack the box regardless. That's the kind of offensive cretivity we need - running 70% of the time or more. This team is not built for balance. AD doesn't need to get the ball more, but more Chester, more designed Tarvaris rushes, more handing to Tapeh, more reverses, etc, etc.

ya it would have been nice to see Tavaris get out and run more, he ran well in week 1

[$$D-Block$$]

Hey guys, its been a while since I've chatted with my fellow Viking faithful.

Firstly, I know we're all very disappointed that we've started the season 0-2, but don't let that get you down. There is still plenty of football left to be played. Both games were against teams that have either won a Superbowl recently, or almost made the Superbowl. Considering both games were very close, and always came down to the last couple of minutes, I'd say we're in good shape.

Secondly, Tarvaris is NOT the problem. I recorded the game, and after re-watching it, I noticed what Dan Dierdorf was saying on our final play, the 3rd and 5 bootleg pass, was right. Jackson was only ever really allowed to throw off of bootlegs. The Colts have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. Did we really think they weren't going to catch on and adjust? The coaching staff doesn't want to start trusting Jackson until he proves he can win, and Jackson can't win until the team starts trusting him. It's a weird cycle, but I'm hopeful it will be worked out. Oh, and having receivers not drop balls would also be helpful.

Thirdly, our secondary is still really bad. Im sure having Tyrell Johnson back there instead of Madieu Williams has a lot to do with it, but nonetheless, we got torched once Panic-mode kicked in for Peyton and crew. We still rely very heavily on LB blitzes, which I really don't like. The line did a good job, but for the second straight game, I feel as though Ray Edwards outperformed Jared Allen, who did have a good game this time around. If the pass rush is able to start putting enough pressure on the QB to the point where the LB's don't have to help, I think that would improve our pass defense a lot more, especially in the middle of the field where we always seem to be giving up yards.

And finally, the play calling simply has to get better. The fact that AD ran 29 times while Chester only had 4 carries is unacceptable. Even if AD is hot, its too early in the season to be using him as a workhorse. Tarvaris couldn't do as much scrambling this game because the Colts run a zone defense, which means they are always able to account for the QB running. I loved how after making two big completions at the end of the first half, the coaches let Jackson throw the ball to start the third, and he drove us downfield, which in turn, opened up the running game. After a few miscues, they went away from the passing game again. That type of play calling is what kills a QB's confidence. By our standards, if Jackson had had the same first half as Peyton Manning, he would have been forced to hand the ball off the rest of the game or even subbed off in favor of Gus Frerotte. We need to allow Jackson to get in a groove and not pull the plug on him so quickly. The running game has to be more balanced, and Special Teams needs to step up their game.

All of that said, if we didn't improve our team from the way it is now, we'd probably still finish at 8-8. If we can somehow find a way to fix the little kinks here and there, the playoffs, and possibly further, are not out of our reach.

[deeney0]

I don't think handing the ball off on third and 3 is going to solve any of our problems, especially if teams are stacking the box. We need to be able to pass for first downs in those situations. If we can't, we're not going anywhere anyway.

I disagree. This team can be special when it comes to running the ball; it might already be. Teams are going to stack the box regardless. That's the kind of offensive cretivity we need - running 70% of the time or more. This team is not built for balance. AD doesn't need to get the ball more, but more Chester, more designed Tarvaris rushes, more handing to Tapeh, more reverses, etc, etc.

The Vikings are elite at running the ball, but it's so much easier to move the ball through the air. Even last year, the Vikings averaged more yards on a Tarvaris Jackson pass attempt than they did an Adrian Peterson run. I don't think anyone can be successful in the NFL running the ball 70% of the time.

The philosophy that's going to kill this team this year is "we have to pass the ball more/better." Tarvaris might not be capable of doing it. Meanwhile, this team can run like nobody's buisness. If we're going to lose, lets lose running.

[revprodeji]

I have talked to some people.
Fact is Chilli (and Bev) are worried Jackson is going to make a huge mistake and have thus limited his QB options to rookie-madden level. I was told he is only allowed 2 reads on a play. The primary and the dump off. From this we need to assume that Chilli thinks TJax regressed majorly and they are limiting the offense out of need. Believing that if he can understand this simple aspect then he can improve.


So here is the question. Did Jackson really move backwards to the point that they are restricting him worse than last year? Or is Chilli just putting him on too tight of a leash?

My believe is you have 2 routes with a young QB.

1.) Bench him 2-3 years and let him learn behind a vet. This is the Rivers/Rodgers approach. Always the best option.
2.) Start him and understand the 3 year growing pain window. 1st year starting is going to be horrible, 2nd year is going to be inconsistant but he needs to work out the kinks, 3rd year is a finished product.

That being said, last year was Jacksons first year starting. He was not "horrible" but he was not good. This year should be the inconsistant year where he has very good games, and very bad games. The problem is that there is risk involved in this, and I think Chilli is not willing to take that risk. In time that will hurt this team, it will hurt Jackson and the fans will be offended.

[Worm Guts]

The philosophy that's going to kill this team this year is "we have to pass the ball more/better." Tarvaris might not be capable of doing it. Meanwhile, this team can run like nobody's buisness. If we're going to lose, lets lose running.

Running 70% of the time is unprecedented in the modern NFL. And given the fact that most teams average about 7-8 yards per pass attempt (compared to 4-5 yards per rushing attempt), its obvious why. Even if the Vikings can run on 80% of teams, there will be teams that can stop them. You need diversity in your offense if you want to make a run to the Super Bowl.

[$$D-Block$$]

I have talked to some people.
Fact is Chilli (and Bev) are worried Jackson is going to make a huge mistake and have thus limited his QB options to rookie-madden level. I was told he is only allowed 2 reads on a play. The primary and the dump off. From this we need to assume that Chilli thinks TJax regressed majorly and they are limiting the offense out of need. Believing that if he can understand this simple aspect then he can improve.


So here is the question. Did Jackson really move backwards to the point that they are restricting him worse than last year? Or is Chilli just putting him on too tight of a leash?

My believe is you have 2 routes with a young QB.

1.) Bench him 2-3 years and let him learn behind a vet. This is the Rivers/Rodgers approach. Always the best option.
2.) Start him and understand the 3 year growing pain window. 1st year starting is going to be horrible, 2nd year is going to be inconsistant but he needs to work out the kinks, 3rd year is a finished product.

That being said, last year was Jacksons first year starting. He was not "horrible" but he was not good. This year should be the inconsistant year where he has very good games, and very bad games. The problem is that there is risk involved in this, and I think Chilli is not willing to take that risk. In time that will hurt this team, it will hurt Jackson and the fans will be offended.

There is no way Tarvaris is worst than last year. He's definitely gotten better. His reads, his foot-work, his confidence. The problem I think is this is year 3 for Brad Childress and crew. His future is going to be linked with the success of Jackson. If Jackson can just get along without making too many big mistakes, the hope is that the rest of the team is good enough to win the game. Childress is too scared to let Tarvaris make a mistake, because the clock is ticking on Major Brad.

Like I said before, were too good a team to not finish at least 8-8, but if we are serious about all of the Superbowl talk that was coming out of the organization during the off-season, we've got to play to win instead of trying to not lose.

[Calinks]

If they want Tavaris to be our guy, then they should throw him to the wolves. Let him play out a game with some freedom. If it's a disaster, well then we know we have to move on. We are wasting time by holding back for fear of making mistakes. If we were winning games like this, then it would be a dfferent story but we are losing. Now that we are done 0-2 it could cost us bigtime to let him loose. We put ourselves in a terrible hole.

If things were like this we should have played him for 3 qtrs a game in pre-season (if he wasn't injured.) The coaching staff should have a good idea of what he is capable of by now. This looks lik poor playyer managment.