Players' roles in upcoming season

[_SRV_]

Sure it can't stray too far away, but that still leaves some definite room for a difference. I'm just saying that I think that Duncan, for instance, has stronger legs than his upper body might indicate--and they are especially strong in comparison to Spencer.

You can't know that (regarding the stronger than his upper body), and even if you think that I don't so...

Summer league>college in terms of size and strength. It's not by a whole lot, but there is a difference just by virtue of the age difference. And like I said, looking just at his shooting percentage, poor shot selection certainly is an issue, but when you look at his struggles to score in the post, it's a different story. Spencer looked pretty good in college, when healthy, as well (just in his freshman year). But it's not the same. There have been a ton of guys who were dominant in college and struggled in the summer league.
And with Gasol, it's certainly a different story because of the face-up games. Gasol had a great one coming into the league. Spencer doesn't. And like I said before, Duncan was older when he came into the league than Spencer was.

Any difference between summer league and college, is nullified by the fact that one was dominating college and the other shooting 40% in summer league, and yes Hawes showed promise, but it was in a weaker league and far far from what Duncan showed, with the at least the same body, which means that Duncan's success wasn't all that related to his supposed strength.

There is a difference of a few feet, but the principle is still the same of it being about quickness. I'm just saying that it's much easier to get position for a close-in face up game than it is to get and hold post position. And it most certainly is.

It's really not close in my eyes, half of Duncan's face actually start from post ups, but that's subjective, and the way each of them finish the face ups is different, I still insist there is little similarity in their face up games.

When did I say Spencer would do that? That's the opposite of what I've been saying the whole time. Of course it's gradual. But at the same time, if you go off of listings, Bosh has added 20 lbs since entering the league, and Gasol has added 30

You didn't, I'm just giving an example of what happens when bulking up, that got drifted away in the discussion.

[pillwenney]

You can't know that (regarding the stronger than his upper body), and even if you think that I don't so...

Okay.

Any difference between summer league and college, is nullified by the fact that one was dominating college and the other shooting 40% in summer league, and yes Hawes showed promise, but it was in a weaker league and far far from what Duncan showed, with the at least the same body, which means that Duncan's success wasn't all that related to his supposed strength.

Again, you can only compare them by age. Duncan's freshman year was considerably worse than Spencers statistically. His sophomore year he put up something like 16 PPG while Spencer probably entered the NBA too early and got inconsistent playing time against pros. He didn't start to really show what he could do until his Junior year (equal to this year, in a way). So we'll see how Spencer does this year, I guess. But again, summer league is a different game, and I don't honestly think that Spencer would have shot 40% if the game had been played differently. But I do think that he'll continue to struggle against stronger competition regardless of how the game is played until he puts on the necessary weight. His 46% from the field in the regular season is probably the more relevant stat here, and I'd say that needs to improve by at least 10%.

It's really not close in my eyes, half of Duncan's face actually start from post ups, but that's subjective, and the way each of them finish the face ups is different, I still insist there is little similarity in their face up games.

The relevant part of the argument is that Duncan can face up effectively against especially big defenders from about 12-15 feet out and use his quickness effectively, along with the very real threat of his patented bank shot. You do have to fight for position, but it's just not nearly the same as fighting for and holding position down low.

For what it's worth I found what looks like a more reliable source for player size (databasebasketball). Dampier is still listed at 265, Duncan is at 248, Brad is at 244, Sheed is at 225, and Spencer is at 230 (and the word at the summer league was that he had lost weight).

Edit: Never mind, these appear to be rookie sizes, although it's not totally clear. But if so, that says something about Duncan.

[_SRV_]

Again, you can only compare them by age. Duncan's freshman year was considerably worse than Spencers statistically. His sophomore year he put up something like 16 PPG while Spencer probably entered the NBA too early and got inconsistent playing time against pros. He didn't start to really show what he could do until his Junior year (equal to this year, in a way). So we'll see how Spencer does this year, I guess. But again, summer league is a different game, and I don't honestly think that Spencer would have shot 40% if the game had been played differently. But I do think that he'll continue to struggle against stronger competition regardless of how the game is played until he puts on the necessary weight. His 46% from the field in the regular season is probably the more relevant stat here, and I'd say that needs to improve by at least 10%.

On the other hand Duncan played a tougher conference (I think, I'm not a college expert), otherwise he wouldn't have been a 1st pick, but also Duncan improved through college with his small stature, but generally I agree, this year is a better test for Hawes, although IMO it started aweful.

The relevant part of the argument is that Duncan can face up effectively against especially big defenders from about 12-15 feet out and use his quickness effectively, along with the very real threat of his patented bank shot. You do have to fight for position, but it's just not nearly the same as fighting for and holding position down low.

Again, big part of his face ups come from post ups, I honestly don't get what you're arguing, that Duncan can face up? The fact is that he's a player that lives down low that's how he plays, and that's where most of his points comes from, we can go back on forth hundred times just to say that he can or can't face up like Bosh, but why? Again there is no similarity in their games, I just don't see it, the difference isn't insignificant, it's very significant my eyes.

[pillwenney]

On the other hand Duncan played a tougher conference (I think, I'm not a college expert), otherwise he wouldn't have been a 1st pick, but also Duncan improved through college with his small stature, but generally I agree, this year is a better test for Hawes, although IMO it started aweful.

I really don't know either, although I know that Wake Forest doesn't end up with a ton of NBA players (although ironically they have produced two of the best players of this generation in Duncan and CP3). But I do know that the PAC-10 isn't normally seen as any kind of a slouch, and certainly not as weak competition. It's certainly nothing like if we were to bring this Jason into this conversation.
And yeah, Duncan improved through college, and he also got bigger--but the point is that it's just kind of a different comparison. But it seems that we basically agree on that.

Again, big part of his face ups come from post ups, I honestly don't get what you're arguing, that Duncan can face up? The fact is that he's a player that lives down low that's how he plays, and that's where most of his points comes from, we can go back on forth hundred times just to say that he can or can't face up like Bosh, but why? Again there is no similarity in their games, I just don't see it, the difference isn't insignificant, it's very significant my eyes.

Duncan certainly doesn't "live" down low. He plays down low often, but it's not at all uncommon for him to be isolated in a face-up from 15 feet out (or for that matter to run a pick n' roll/pop with Parker). And when he is in the face up situation, the position is more a matter of maybe getting down low, getting the pass to his outside hand, and facing up. He doesn't have to have his man totally behind him, he doesn't have to hold position for nearly as long, and he puts the defender in a totally different position. And my point is that if he is going up against a particularly strong (physically) defender, he can bring it out to that face-up position where positioning isn't such a struggle and work from there. I thought this was very apparent in the first round this year against Phoenix. I actually thought Shaq was doing a very good job against Duncan in the post. So the Spurs moved to giving him more face-ups and ran a lot of pick n' rolls/pops with Parker, and the Suns simply couldn't guard it. And the important part of this is that Spencer hasn't proven to be nearly as capable in this regard IMO. Sure he is a viable pick n' pop option, but that's basically it. He hasn't proven to really have much of a face-up game or to be much of a threat rolling to the basket, so he can never make that adjustment when the match-up calls for it.

[_SRV_]

Duncan certainly doesn't "live" down low. He plays down low often, but it's not at all uncommon for him to be isolated in a face-up from 15 feet out (or for that matter to run a pick n' roll/pop with Parker). And when he is in the face up situation, the position is more a matter of maybe getting down low, getting the pass to his outside hand, and facing up. He doesn't have to have his man totally behind him, he doesn't have to hold position for nearly as long, and he puts the defender in a totally different position. And my point is that if he is going up against a particularly strong (physically) defender, he can bring it out to that face-up position where positioning isn't such a struggle and work from there. I thought this was very apparent in the first round this year against Phoenix. I actually thought Shaq was doing a very good job against Duncan in the post. So the Spurs moved to giving him more face-ups and ran a lot of pick n' rolls/pops with Parker, and the Suns simply couldn't guard it. And the important part of this is that Spencer hasn't proven to be nearly as capable in this regard IMO. Sure he is a viable pick n' pop option, but that's basically it. He hasn't proven to really have much of a face-up game or to be much of a threat rolling to the basket, so he can never make that adjustment when the match-up calls for it.

We're talking about isolation against big men so Pick n' Pop/Roll plays aren't relevant, of course Dunacn runs pick plays, and you're right against Shaq, he plays away from the basket, not only against the Suns but against the Lakers also, but that goes for every big man in the league, who gives up up few inches and 60-80 pounds to Shaq, take the series Vs Dallas and you'll see a different story, he was out sized by both centers, and he was rarely away from the basket for isolation, you're confusing facing up with playing on perimeter, and Spencer can definitely roll to the basket, he has the quickness (with this weight), the hands and the touch to finish, it's just that we don't have and guard that can play it effectively with, this team is used too much to high post big men, and we never really had any dribble penetration force to ease the way for the big man off the switch.
Anyway, it's getting really pointless, I will never agree to any resemblance between Bosh's face up gae and Duncan's, so unless there is something new to this, I'm out.

[cdt3]

Here are the rankings of the rebounding leaders, team, # of Rebounds, and the type of body they have.

1 D. Howard, ORL 14.2 Big
2 M. Camby, DEN 13.1 Skinny
3 T. Chandler, NOR 11.7 Skinny
4 T. Duncan, SAS 11.3 Skinny
5 A. Jefferson, MIN 11.1 Big
6 E. Okafor, CHA 10.7 Big
7 L. Odom, LAL 10.6 Between
8 C. Boozer, UTH 10.4 Big
9 S. Dalembert, PHI 10.4 Between
10 A. Jamison, WAS 10.2 Between
11 A. Biedrins, GSW 9.8 Skinny
12 A. Bogut, MIL 9.8 Between
13 A. Horford, ATL 9.7 Between
14 B. Miller, SAC 9.5 Skinny
15 N. Collison, SEA 9.4 Between
16 Z. Ilgauskas, CLE 9.3 Skinny
17 K. Garnett, BOS 9.2 Skinny
18 A. Stoudemire, PHO 9.1 Big
19 D. Lee, NYK 8.9 Skinny
20 D. West, NOR 8.9 Between
21 J. Foster, IND 8.7 Between
22 D. Nowitzki, DAL 8.6
23 A. McDyess, DET 8.5
24 J. Przybilla, POR 8.4
25 B. Wallace, CHI/CLE 8.4
26 J. Smith, ATL 8.2
27 L. James, CLE 7.9
28 M. Okur, UTH 7.7
29 L. Aldridge, POR 7.6
30 R. Evans, PHI 7.5
31 J. Kidd, DAL/NJN 7.5
32 E. Dampier, DAL 7.5
33 C. Anthony, DEN 7.4
34 J. Boone, NJN 7.3
35 K. Thomas, SAS/SEA 7.2
36 T. Murphy, IND 7.2
37 B. Haywood, WAS 7.2

Yes that is our boy B Miller outrebounding D West, A Stoudamire, D Nowitski, and K Garnett. Please stop with the skinny or big arguement. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is heart. Charles Barkley was a big fat guy who was 6'4" playing power forward, and dominated for 10 years. Jason Kidd outrebounder E Dampier and B Haywood.

B Miller (13/10/1blk) is in the long term plans of this team. They want him to be Vlade like this year 15/10/5asts, and he will be with Artest gone. By the way I looked up Sheldon Williams senior year college stats (21/11/4blocks) at Duke losing by a point before the final 4. He had better college stats than Carlos Boozer, Drew Gooden, more blocks than Greg Oden! Please tell me why he wasn't playing full time with B Miller last year. That is another reason it is great that Artest (20/6/0.6blks) is gone, he the best 1 on 1 defender in the league but sucked on team d. Miller is a solid team d guy, but needs someone better to back him up. He could be A Jefferson like. I'm sure they weren't giving him M Moores (8/6/0.5blks) spot so he would work harder and earn it. The younger guys: J Thompson is 22, S Hawes and D Greene are 20 but all are scorers. The shooters shoot be much more free this year, and there will be a lot more movement on offense. Martin, Garcia, Salmons, Douby, Jackson, and Udrich will all be very happy this year. I think this is very close to a playoff team. When I first saw that Miller/Moore starting combo I almost got sick, I like Moore but he is taking away playing from much better players. Miller/Williams could be the combo we are looking for. If it's not we develop the young bigs Hawes and Thompson. If our team d is good enough with Williams in the middle getting 2-3 blocks a game, I think you will be surprised with this squad.

[pillwenney]

We're talking about isolation against big men so Pick n' Pop/Roll plays aren't relevant, of course Dunacn runs pick plays, and you're right against Shaq, he plays away from the basket, not only against the Suns but against the Lakers also, but that goes for every big man in the league, who gives up up few inches and 60-80 pounds to Shaq, take the series Vs Dallas and you'll see a different story, he was out sized by both centers, and he was rarely away from the basket for isolation, you're confusing facing up with playing on perimeter, and Spencer can definitely roll to the basket, he has the quickness (with this weight), the hands and the touch to finish, it's just that we don't have and guard that can play it effectively with, this team is used too much to high post big men, and we never really had any dribble penetration force to ease the way for the big man off the switch.
Anyway, it's getting really pointless, I will never agree to any resemblance between Bosh's face up gae and Duncan's, so unless there is something new to this, I'm out.

I've already said that you don't need to be as strong as the guy defending you to get and hold position--but you can't be totally weak either. And Duncan did face up often against Diop and Dampier.

And I'm not confusing facing up with playing on the perimeter, but the fact remains that you don't need to work nearly as hard for position on a face up and that you can use your quickness more effectively.

And maybe Spencer can roll, but I've never seen it, so I'm not going to assume anything until I've seen it. And his finishing ability, in general hasn't really impressed me so far (partially I think because he is so weak driving to the basket).

re are the rankings of the rebounding leaders, team, # of Rebounds, and the type of body they have.

We've been barely talking about rebounding. But regardless, it's true that there are many ways to succeed as a rebounder and desire is one of the more important things. But with Brad, you have to consider a couple of factors--first that he played a buttload of minutes--if you go by rebounds per minute, Brad's numbers aren't that great. And they especially aren't that great when you consider that he had Mikki next to him, who is a pretty crappy rebounder for a PF. This also helps Dwight (having Shard next to him), and hurts the averages for both Chandler and West.

Regardless, Shelden hasn't gotten ample playing time because in the playing time he has received, he hasn't shown a whole lot. I could give you a laundry list of players that were great in college and not in the NBA--especially guys from Duke. Shelden is no exception, which is fine--nobody is expecting him to be a savior, but he can be a nice role player for us.

[cdt3]

Artest was fantastic at 1 on 1, but he stopped nothing as a PF. Miller will have his minutes kept down and he will be more productive. Hawes is a offensive C, good down low and jump shooting and passing like Miller. Strong O, ok D. Thompson used to be a guard growing up so he is a better ballhandler, plays strong d. Greene is a scorer from anywhere, not much D. Miller he used to Webber to make up for him. I think Sheldon should be given the chance to be that all around guy he was in college. If he can block 2-3 shots a game the interior d will be 5 times better than it was last year. This is going to be a high scoring team, they just need better d to win. Not Det D, just solid. The Kings almost finished .500 with no d whatsoever.
Remember how a guy plays in college gives you a pretty good guage of how a guy will perform. Sheldon did not blossom at college until his jr year. Greene was performing as a freshman and will proabably be pretty comfortable as a pro. Hawes will and Thompson will take a couple of years. Brad Miller does suck when he feels like he was by himself down low, even with Artest, who was not good team defender. I really think if Sheldon gets the playing time he will develop, this is his 3rd year in the league.
David West: year 1- 3pts, yr 2-7pts, yr 3-17pts
Carlos Boozer: year 1-10pts, yr 2-15pts, yr 3-18pts
Drew Gooden: year 1-13pts, yr 2-12pts, yr 3-11pts
Al Jefferson: year 1-6pts, yr 2-7pts, yr 3-13pts (no college)
Emeka Okafor: year 1-15pts, yr 2-13pts, yr 3-14pts
All I'm saying is don't judge Hawes or Sheldon because it takes some players a few years to make the jump to stud from dud (some never make the jump).
I think after seeing Thompson play, I'm hoping he might be Tim Duncanish with him hitting a couple gamewinners in summer. Of course we will see. If he is I have now problem unloading Miller. But I would like to see what Sheldon can do. If he can go 15/10/2+ blks, we keep him.