Is this trade useful?

vincecarter4pres · Post #1 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:01 pm

New Jersey Sends:
Josh Boone
Bobby Simmons
Stromile Swift
Maurice Ager
performance based conditional protected 1st

Sacramento Sends:
Brad Miller
John Salmons

You replace Simmons with Salmons and move VC to the 3.
Miller can start at PF or C.

Sacto saves some money, bring in a decent swap for Salmons and gets Boone and possibly a 1st for Miller.

In terms of contract length we don't lose any cap flexibility.

There will still be plenty of minutes at the 4 and 5 for everyone.

About 24 a game for Lopez and Yi.
28 for Miller.
20 minutes left between SWAT, Anderson and Najera, but Najera and Anderson will probably get most their minutes at the 3 anyway, so Sean winds up around 15 a game.

Don't know if I like it so much, it might put us right on that mediocre borderline again.
The only thing I could say, is with our team constructed how it is now we are probably looking at somewhere around 30-38 wins, which puts us right on the brink of mediocre already, so it might be beneficial to make a trade like this, that could possibly net us around a 44 win season.
I mean if we are going to make the playoffs as the 8th seed, or have a garbage lotto pick like the 13th why not try to snag the 4th to 6xth seed in the playoffs and actually compete.

I don't know.

I dislike it for a lot of reasons, but I like for just as many.

My last reasoning was if Thorn was going after Camby for expirings and Boone and/or SWAT, Miller fits right into that mold. An older effective C/PF that can contribute and mentor the young guys with a friendly contract lengthwise.

Great · Post #2 » by **Great** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:07 pm

I kinda think if the team trades Swft for a pick and releases Hassell and Ager the team should be good.

They can do what Dallas has been doing for the last few years.

Preludepunk27 · Post #3 » by **Preludepunk27** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:29 pm

Eh I don't think it's a bad deal. Before the draft I would have seriously considered it. I love John Salmons and I think Brad is a character guy who really bounced back last year who could has 2 productive years left in him if he came to the East. It'd free up a roster spot for Hodge too. No way in hell am I giving up a 1st though. I would be fine with it if we did this. Opens up some more time for CDR at the 3, gives Lopez/Sean/Yi more time in the front court, gives us a decent expiring and a solid young guy. I don't totally know if the Nets brass would be sold on it but if they were, I'd be ok with this.

With all that said, I don't think it would really interest Sacto too much though.

vincecarter4pres · Post #4 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:56 pm

Preludepunk27 wrote:With all that said, I don't think it would really interest Sacto too much though.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Great wrote:I kinda think if the team trades Swft for a pick and releases Hassell and Ager the team should be good.

They can do what Dallas has been doing for the last few years.

By pick I would imagine you mean 2nd rounder, and I am pretty sure we have to take back a matching contract as well, so forget that deal.

And what has Dallas been doing the last few years?
Paying people to play for the Spurs?
Trading away an up and coming PG prospect, about 3 expirings, a good wing defender and 2 1sts for one of the better PG's on the decline that doesn't fit their style of system?
Signing Marquis Daniels to a bloated contract?
Resigning Stack to a bloated contract even if that deal is short.
Going after Dampier like he was the next Mutumbo in his prime?

ecuhus1981 · Post #5 » by **ecuhus1981** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 pm

Sacto doesn't need Boone; they have Shelden, Thompson and Hawes as bigs to develop, not to mention Moore and even KT/SAR on the books in the frontcourt. Also, he doesn't fit Theus' mold of a bigman (see: Thompson, Jason).

I would do many things to help us compete over the next two years, but giving up our own future 1st is not one of them. Plus, I don't see Brad and John pushing us to contender status, and we'd be on the hook for Salmons' extra $7mil in 2010. It's not much, but it's the make-or-break type of contract that at this point could prevent us from giving a max offer to a FA. I don't want that under ANY circumstances.

Great · Post #6 » by **Great** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:04 pm

vincecarter4pres wrote:
Preludepunk27 wrote:With all that said, I don't think it would really interest Sacto too much though.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Great wrote:I kinda think if the team trades Swft for a pick and releases Hassell and Ager the team should be good.

They can do what Dallas has been doing for the last few years.

By pick I would imagine you mean 2nd rounder, and I am pretty sure we have to take back a matching contract as well, so forget that deal.

And what has Dallas been doing the last few years?
Paying people to play for the Spurs?
Trading away an up and coming PG prospect, about 3 expirings, a good wing defender and 2 1sts for one of the better PG's on the decline that doesn't fit their style of system?
Signing Marquis Daniels to a bloated contract?
Resigning Stack to a bloated contract even if that deal is short.
Going after Dampier like he was the next Mutumbo in his prime?

What did denver take back when they traded Camby to the Clippers?

Dallas was a decent team before last year. They went to the finals a couple of years ago.

The Nets could function in a similar way because of similar personnel, which would be an imrpovement for the Nets from over the last few years.

The Nets have a 7 foot jumpshooting PF in Yi like the Mavs have Dirk.

The Nets have Devin Harris like the Mavs had.

The Mavericks never had a 2 guard as good as Vince.

The Nets have no post up game, just like Dallas. The Nets have guys who are pretty much skilled like the Mavs players at the Center position.

If Simmons does 14ppg 4 apg 5 rpg and he, Devin, and Vince play at 70 minimum this team will be competitive in the East.

With no post scoring this team needs a player to come in off the bench and score! score! score!
Get lots of FTA's. Not just be a good shooter, but a excellent scorer.

vincecarter4pres · Post #7 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:52 am

Great wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
Preludepunk27 wrote:With all that said, I don't think it would really interest Sacto too much though.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Great wrote:I kinda think if the team trades Swft for a pick and releases Hassell and Ager the team should be good.

They can do what Dallas has been doing for the last few years.

By pick I would imagine you mean 2nd rounder, and I am pretty sure we have to take back a matching contract as well, so forget that deal.

And what has Dallas been doing the last few years?
Paying people to play for the Spurs?
Trading away an up and coming PG prospect, about 3 expirings, a good wing defender and 2 1sts for one of the better PG's on the decline that doesn't fit their style of system?
Signing Marquis Daniels to a bloated contract?
Resigning Stack to a bloated contract even if that deal is short.
Going after Dampier like he was the next Mutumbo in his prime?

What did denver take back when they traded Camby to the Clippers?

Dallas was a decent team before last year. They went to the finals a couple of years ago.

The Nets could function in a similar way because of similar personnel, which would be an imrpovement for the Nets from over the last few years.

The Nets have a 7 foot jumpshooting PF in Yi like the Mavs have Dirk.

The Nets have Devin Harris like the Mavs had.

The Mavericks never had a 2 guard as good as Vince.

The Nets have no post up game, just like Dallas. The Nets have guys who are pretty much skilled like the Mavs players at the Center position.

If Simmons does 14ppg 4 apg 5 rpg and he, Devin, and Vince play at 70 minimum this team will be competitive in the East.

With no post scoring this team needs a player to come in off the bench and score! score! score!
Get lots of FTA's. Not just be a good shooter, but a excellent scorer.

Please stop.

Just stop the madness.

Do not compare Yi to Dirk on a serious level at this point, especially on an immediate expected production level.

Do not tell me Dallas has never a SG with talent becuse they have and still have a very underrated player in Terry.
No one they have had has been near Vince's level, but Dirk kind of makes up for that, no?

No we have never really had a post scorer, but we used to be a fast break team with tremendous finishers, Dallas is a mainly half court team, and a different style half court team from our recent one.

He is a rookie, and I am not expecting a lot, but Lopez is a pretty good low post scorer, and on the whole, there just aren't that many potent low post scorers in the L.

Great · Post #8 » by **Great** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:43 pm

What did Denver get back when they traded Camby?

I'm not really sure what you are protesting or if you're just being contrary to be contrary.

Did you read what I wrote?

IMO Dallas and the Nets have similar personnel that will allow them to run a similar style of game.
I can see how the Net could be successful cause I saw Dallas be successful with similar personnel.

Yi is no Dirk. He is a talented 7 foot jump shooting PF like Dirk. The have a smiliar style of play. Yi can do 15 ppg 6 rpg 2 apg.

Yi's numbers will closer to what Terry produces.

Terry is no Vince Carter. Did you read what I wrote? I told you Dallas never had a SG as good as Vince. Did you read what I wrote?

Vince's productivity is closer to what Dirk produces.

I know the Nets don't have a low post scorer, much like Mavericks didn't and don't. I said that in my post. Did you read what I wrote?

When Devin Harris was in Dallas the teams style is to get up and down the court and score. They didn't like the half court. In the playoffs they struggled in the half court cause they lacked a low post threat.

Hopefully Lopez can score in the post. That would add a dimension to the Nets that Dallas never had.

vincecarter4pres · Post #9 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:53 pm

Listen, in your 1st response you are basically hinting at that the Nets in your opinion can easily be as successful as Dallas has been the last few years.
I admire your love for the team, but this is flat out rubbish.
I think their is a slight possibility that constructed as is this team could gel and win over 40 games, and with the right matchup make it out of the 1st round.
Do I think this is very likely to happen? No.
But no matter what you will now claim you meant, you were basically saying, that as is this team could be a 50 something win team this coming season and compete to go to the finals.
God bless if that somehow turns out to be the case, but I think there is a better chance of the Grizzlies making the playoffs in the West than us winning 50 something games, as is, and being a legit contender.

Great · Post #10 » by **Great** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:37 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:Listen, in your 1st response you are basically hinting at that the Nets in your opinion can easily be as successful as Dallas has been the last few years.
I admire your love for the team, but this is flat out rubbish.
I think their is a slight possibility that constructed as is this team could gel and win over 40 games, and with the right matchup make it out of the 1st round.
Do I think this is very likely to happen? No.
But no matter what you will now claim you meant, you were basically saying, that as is this team could be a 50 something win team this coming season and compete to go to the finals.
God bless if that somehow turns out to be the case, but I think there is a better chance of the Grizzlies making the playoffs in the West than us winning 50 something games, as is, and being a legit contender.

Dag dude, adverserial much?

Do you ever try asking a question then waiting for a reply?

What I am saying is I can see how the team can be successful. In Dallas there is model that the Nets closely resemble talent wise. It remains to be seen if the team has the chemistry and toughness to win 30, 40, or 50 games.

Harris, Vince, Simmons, Yi, Lopez is a darn good starting five.

The bench of Dooling, Hayes, Najera, and Williams is pretty good.

I will say THIS! If they get anything meaningful from Boone, CDR, or Anderson they will win 45 + games.

Still need aother SF/SG who can score.

Right now on paper I'll say
Boston
Detroit
Philly
Orlando
Washington
New Jersey
Cleveland
Atlanta
Toronto

Honestly I hadn't paid attention to the team until I saw Hodge and Farmer where working out here.

I like what Kiki has done.
We'll see how it gels in training camp.

Great · Post #11 » by **Great** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:54 am

One other thing, this team needs a spark. They need someone to be high energy.
Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team...

Of everyone under contract, that's the one thing that I think is missing.

That is the one quality both Hodge and Farmer have in abundance.

vincecarter4pres · Post #12 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:31 am

Great wrote:
Right now on paper I'll say
Boston
Detroit
Philly
Orlando
Washington
New Jersey
Cleveland
Atlanta
Toronto

Are these in order?
Barring injury, which would be per the n paper argument, I cannot see the logic behind you order. I don't see Atlanta even making the playoffs this season. There is no way I could put NJ as is ahead of Cleveland or Toronto. I also can't see the reasoning behind Washington being that high.
I would figure more along the lines of:
Boston
Detroit
Philly
Orlando
Cleveland
Toronto
Washington
Milwaukee or Charlotte

Honestly I hadn't paid attention to the team until I saw Hodge and Farmer where working out here.

It shows.

I like what Kiki has done.

Hell, let's give Thorn a little credit here.

We'll see how it gels in training camp.
We shall. Barring any huge trades or major injuries, I am going to say a 27 to 34 win season, and if you want to hold me to an exact #, I'm going with 29.

Great · Post #13 » by **Great** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:19 am

Vince and Devin Harris are tough match ups for darn near everyone.

Yep those picks were in order.

Toronto's bench is kind of weak. Hassan Adams, Joey Graham, their back up PG's, Bargnani, Jawai....
IMO all their wing players are all .250 hitters. Suspect in the heart area.

The Cavs right now are all spare parts. They regressed last year and will continue to do so.
I'm not sure about Mo Williams as a winner.

The Bucks front court is wacky to me. Though they are my second darkhorse team behind the Nets in the East. I like Simmons, Hayes, Yi, Najera, Lopez, & whoever on the Nets VS the Bucks front court

I will see how things gel with all teams after camps. CHEMISTRY!

And Rod Thorn of course gets credit from me. I'm from Chicago and he was GM when we draft 23.
He knows what he's doing.

rag-time4 · Post #14 » by **rag-time4** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:55 am

Brad Miller is quite possibly the worst defensive center in the NBA. The last player the Nets should be thinking of getting. Terrible idea.

great wrote:One other thing, this team needs a spark. They need someone to be high energy.
Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team...

Of everyone under contract, that's the one thing that I think is missing.

Why don't you think Stromile Swift can provide a spark? Didn't he do that last season for the Nets, and anywhere else he's played?

Check out this sequence of plays... these plays occured in succession... seems like quite a significant spark to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPXY2nbe ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0UT_hzNq_M

Preludepunk27 · Post #15 » by **Preludepunk27** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:11 pm

Again he has all the ability in the world. These sparks you're talking about become to far and few in between as the season goes on. I think it comes down to that he doesn't play with constancy enough on both ends of the court for coaches to keep their faith in the guy.

Yes he could be a spark but you're ignoring the comment right after the one you highlighted:

"Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team..."

He doesn't have the mental focus to do this day in day out. If he did, he wouldn't have been bounced around and falling out with coaches so much in his short career.

rag-time4 · Post #16 » by **rag-time4** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:06 pm

Preludepunk27 wrote:Again he has all the ability in the world. These sparks you're talking about become to far and few in between as the season goes on. I think it comes down to that he doesn't play with constancy enough on both ends of the court for coaches to keep their faith in the guy.

Yes he could be a spark but you're ignoring the comment right after the one you highlighted:

"Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team..."

He doesn't have the mental focus to do this day in day out. If he did, he wouldn't have been bounced around and falling out with coaches so much in his short career.

How about Bonzi Wells? He has bounced around quite a bit also now, and has often fallen out with coaches. Does he also lack mental focus to give his team a lift day in day out?

vincecarter4pres · Post #17 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:07 pm

rag-time4 wrote:Brad Miller is quite possibly the worst defensive center in the NBA. The last player the Nets should be thinking of getting. Terrible idea.

Wow. I don't think Brad Miller is a good defensive player, but this is coming from someone who believes Strome is a defensive presence.

great wrote:One other thing, this team needs a spark. They need someone to be high energy.
Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team...

Of everyone under contract, that's the one thing that I think is missing.

Why don't you think Stromile Swift can provide a spark? Didn't he do that last season for the Nets, and anywhere else he's played?

Your man love for Stromile Swift is getting borderline creepy. You're not one of those guys that follows him to the post office and gives him a hand written letter are you?

Check out this sequence of plays... these plays occured in succession... seems like quite a significant spark to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPXY2nbe ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0UT_hzNq_M

Swift has been in the league for like 8 or 9 years I believe.
What you see is what you get.
He does not need a change of scenery, more minutes and opportunity, nor does he still have any hidden untapped potential.
He sucks.
He can dunk really good and occasionally make the crowd go "oooh", and then celebrates like he hit the game winner.
He sometimes makes a highlight reel block after he blew his original defensive assignment.
Once in a blue, when the rest of the teams big men are in foul trouble and he gets 28 minutes in a game he grabs 8 boards.
And on the Haley's Comet rarest of nights he decides to pass the ball.
The best way to describe Stromile Swift is an athletic 6 fouls waiting to hacken.

rag-time4 · Post #18 » by **rag-time4** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:43 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
rag-time4 wrote:Brad Miller is quite possibly the worst defensive center in the NBA. The last player the Nets should be thinking of getting. Terrible idea.

Wow. I don't think Brad Miller is a good defensive player, but this is coming from someone who believes Strome is a defensive presence.

great wrote:One other thing, this team needs a spark. They need someone to be high energy.
Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team...

Of everyone under contract, that's the one thing that I think is missing.

Why don't you think Stromile Swift can provide a spark? Didn't he do that last season for the Nets, and anywhere else he's played?

Your man love for Stromile Swift is getting borderline creepy. You're not one of those guys that follows him to the post office and gives him a hand written letter are you?

Check out this sequence of plays... these plays occured in succession... seems like quite a significant spark to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPXY2nbe ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0UT_hzNq_M

Swift has been in the league for like 8 or 9 years I believe.
What you see is what you get.
He does not need a change of scenery, more minutes and opportunity, nor does he still have any hidden untapped potential.
He sucks.
He can dunk really good and occasionally make the crowd go "oooh", and then celebrates like he hit the game winner.
He sometimes makes a highlight reel block after he blew his original defensive assignment.
Once in a blue, when the rest of the teams big men are in foul trouble and he gets 28 minutes in a game he grabs 8 boards.
And on the Haley's Comet rarest of nights he decides to pass the ball.
The best way to describe Stromile Swift is an athletic 6 fouls waiting to hacken.

You seem to be stretching reality to suit your dislike of Swift.

Saying he 'celebrates like he hit the game winner' is certainly a stretch. He throws up a handsign. He doesn't do a lot of yelling, chest thumping, etc.

And he makes a 'highlight reel block' only after blowing defensive assignments? What's that all about? You mean when one of his teammates blows a defensive assignment?

Here's Swift blocking Bostjan Nachbar twice on one play, after Casey Jacobsen blew his defensive assignment on Nachbar by flopping unsuccessfully and giving Nachbar the shot in the paint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUf1Gh4pqcQ

The video must be painful for you to watch, i'm sure. Your comments are inaccurate at best.

Preludepunk27 · Post #19 » by **Preludepunk27** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:21 pm

rag-time4 wrote:
Preludepunk27 wrote:Again he has all the ability in the world. These sparks you're talking about become to far and few in between as the season goes on. I think it comes down to that he doesn't play with constancy enough on both ends of the court for coaches to keep their faith in the guy.

Yes he could be a spark but you're ignoring the comment right after the one you highlighted:

"Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team..."

He doesn't have the mental focus to do this day in day out. If he did, he wouldn't have been bounced around and falling out with coaches so much in his short career.

How about Bonzi Wells? He has bounced around quite a bit also now, and has often fallen out with coaches. Does he also lack mental focus to give his team a lift day in day out?

The difference between Bonzi and Stro is very big. Bonzi falls out because he's a wackjob, but when he's on the court, he usually plays with a level of consistancy. Everywhere he's played, he's been able to get into the rotation and make a contribution. Houston he had a hard time, but not because of his attitude and "falling out. He had injury plagued seasons after injury plagued seasons ever since he got there.

Stro is a roller coaster. For a 2 week span, he'll dominate and look like the guy everyone expected of him when he was drafted, then the next 2 weeks he looks like a rookie 2nd rounder trying to pick up a team's system and having a hard time.

Again, wide gap between those 2 guys. If you're gonna compare him to anyone, Darko is probably a better example since they're both big men. Darko is up and down but still has value in this league. It's hard to accurately compare a big man and a swing man. As long as a swing man doesn't lose his jumpshot, he can find a place in the league. That isn't the case with a big man. You have to play with consistancy on both ends of the court.

rag-time4 · Post #20 » by **rag-time4** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:34 am

Preludepunk27 wrote:
rag-time4 wrote:
Preludepunk27 wrote:Again he has all the ability in the world. These sparks you're talking about become to far and few in between as the season goes on. I think it comes down to that he doesn't play with constancy enough on both ends of the court for coaches to keep their faith in the guy.

Yes he could be a spark but you're ignoring the comment right after the one you highlighted:

"Someone to be the emotional ignition switch/leader of the team..."

He doesn't have the mental focus to do this day in day out. If he did, he wouldn't have been bounced around and falling out with coaches so much in his short career.

How about Bonzi Wells? He has bounced around quite a bit also now, and has often fallen out with coaches. Does he also lack mental focus to give his team a lift day in day out?

The difference between Bonzi and Stro is very big. Bonzi falls out because he's a wackjob, but when he's on the court, he usually plays with a level of consistancy. Everywhere he's played, he's been able to get into the rotation and make a contribution. Houston he had a hard time, but not because of his attitude and "falling out. He had injury plagued seasons after injury plagued seasons ever since he got there.

Stro is a roller coaster. For a 2 week span, he'll dominate and look like the guy everyone expected of him when he was drafted, then the next 2 weeks he looks like a rookie 2nd rounder trying to pick up a team's system and having a hard time.

Again, wide gap between those 2 guys. If you're gonna compare him to anyone, Darko is probably a better example since they're both big men. Darko is up and down but still has value in this league. It's hard to accurately compare a big man and a swing man. As long as a swing man doesn't lose his jumpshot, he can find a place in the league. That isn't the case with a big man. You have to play with consistancy on both ends of the court.

You're full of it. Anyone who followed the situation in Houston knows full well that Bonzi and Jeff Van Gundy didn't get along. Just like Van Gundy and Swift didn't get along.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4395436.html

From the article:

Stories differ
What it does mean is ... well ... they'd better explain it.

"I don't think it's any secret that Bonzi and I have struggled to find common ground," Van Gundy said. "I didn't think it had a chance of working for the last two to three weeks.

"He called me about a week ago, and we talked and he wanted to give it another opportunity. I thought about it. We talked again on Friday and again (Sunday), and we're going to give it a final go.

"I think there's been frustration on both sides, certainly where neither one of us has gotten what we expected from the other. That being said, as I've told our team, it's not about me, not about Bonzi. It's not about 'me-or-Bonzi.' "

Furthermore, Bonzi doesn't have a very good jumper! It's his biggest weakness on the court, but he is an excellent post up player, and is a factor in the paint.

In which games with the Nets did Stromile fit your description?