10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008

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10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:50 am

Last couple of years after the US Open I've given my all-time top 10s for men & women. Don't know where those threads are, so I'm going to start from scratch here. Note that this is considering singles only.

Men
1. Pete Sampras
Continues to hold on to the #1 spot. However, not only is Federer breathing down his neck, I'm starting to question more and more players who can't play on all surfaces as it really does seem like the era of total serve domination was a temporary product of players getting used to new speeds rather than a fundamental shift in the game.

2. Roger Federer
Had him a #4 last year. Interestingly, even though last year was considered a disappointment, you can still make the argument it was about as impressive as any Sampras ever had. I may move Federer to #1 a year from now even if fails to win another major.

3. Pancho Gonzales
The original Pete Sampras. Gets surpassed largely because of Federer's continued rise in career accomplishment, but I am having questions about his serve-dominated game. Should I really have him as the king of pre-open tennis?

4. Bjorn Borg
Slides with Federer's rise as to be expected. It's been a fascinating year for evaluating Borg though as we've seen his modern equivalent truly arise in Nadal.

5. Jimmy Connors
I remain convinced that he needs to be below Borg, but it's hard to see him any lower. This is a guy who played through Borg & McEnroe's peaks, which were both sky high, who won majors on every surface, could've easily won a Grand Slam if not for some technicalities in the ATP at the time, and whose longevity stacks up with anyone in history.

6. Ken Rosewall
Here begins some actual movement based on my opinion change. Those who've seen these lists before that I've always championed Rosewall, but I dismissed a good amount because I couldn't see him winning majors on anything but clay in the modern era. I look at Nadal's game, which is really not height dependent, and I think Rosewall could've played on anything.

For those not familiar with Rosewall. If you look at the list of true majors won (ignore the pre-open Grand Slam, include instead their pro equivalents), it's startling:

1. Rosewall 19
2. Sampras 14
3. Gonzales 13
(tie) Laver 13
(tie) Federer 13

There are reasons why that 19 is a bit inflated, but since many think of Laver as a GOAT candidate and he played in the same era, that should tell you something about Rosewall.

In the end I leave Rosewall below Connors because I think Connors peak wasn't much less dominant, was against much tougher competition, and Connors longevity matches Rosewll's.

7. Rod Laver
Laver moves up along with Rosewall and for the same reasons, though I know many still won't be satisfied with it.

8. Andre Agassi
Andre is the biggest victim of this mind change I had. I feel like I'm doing him a disservice, but I really do feel like his career was maddenly incomplete mostly because of how erratic he was.

9. Ivan Lendl
Lendl's accomplishments really can be argued to be superior to Connors, who could be argued to be the true #1. I look at Lendl and I just think his accomplishments are inflated by peaking in between really strong "dynasties", and with the aide of being a spearhead in superior training which would mean he'd stand out less in most eras. Along these lines, it really bugs me when a guy can't win on the lead surface of his era, which for him was grass. Sure he came close, but it's not like he had a Nadal like wall in his way, I mean Pat Cash kept him from the title.

10. John McEnroe
It really bothers me to put him so low. Many felt that at the top of his game, he was the greatest in history. But his accomplishments just don't stack up. I mean, Lendl made 19 finals, McEnroe only made 11, the same number as Wilander & Edberg.

It will really be brutal though, if I don't change my mind, this will mean that in another year or two, Mac likely won't be in my top 10. That's just crazy.

Women
1. Chris Evert
I'm sure this seems strange to anyone see this for the first time, so I'll explain again. If you compare Evert and Navratilova's accomplishments, Evert actually comes up on top. Navratilova is considered superior mostly because when they were the top 2 players, Navratilova got the better of the rivalry. However this overlooks the fact that earlier in their career, Evert was the clear #1 in the world and Navratilova often got beat before getting the chance to lose to Evert.

What about Graf? Well...

2. Martina Navratilova
Navratilova (and Evert) gets the nod over Graf because if ignore major titles, Navratilova clearly has the more accomplished career. Why should we ignore major titles? Well we shouldn't ignore them, but the context needs to be understood. If Seles doesn't get stabbed, Graf likely doesn't surpass Martina in major titles. Should we give Graf the nod here because her top competitor was stunted while others' rivals were not? I say no.

3. Steffi Graf
Nothing to say here. I can't imagine the argument that puts Graf any lower.

4. Monica Seles
This is always controversial. Normally I don't give a player credit for what they could have done, but in this special circumstance, I refuse to knock Seles for longevity. One could think of this being me giving Seles credit for the titles I'm saying Graf likely wouldn't have won if a Steffi Graf fan hadn't removed her competition.

5. Margaret Smith-Court
The biggest accomplishment numbers around, but she played in a much more primitive era, and won a huge amount of her majors at the Australian, which wasn't really taken that seriously at the time.

6. Billie Jean King
I'm not meaning to go two contemporaries at a time, I really would like to move King down as she is clearly significantly below Smith. But there's just not another woman worthy of moving here down yet.

7. Serena Williams
Really? Serena isn't worthy of being above King? Remember how spotty the Williams sisters have been. King made almost double the number of major semi-finals as Serena has because there are so many tournaments that Serena loses to women that simply aren't that great. Flat out Serena's got to do more.

8. Venus Williams
Same story as Serena, though I'd actually argue she's in some ways underrated. To me it's actually very close as far as whether she should be rated ahead of her little sis. If Venus were to have a dominant year next year, there really would be no doubt in my mind that she would be the Player of the Decade.

9. Maureen Connolly
Maureen's new to my list. I kept her off before because of her lack of longevity, and I still hold that against here, but that doesn't change the fact she won more majors than every woman not on this list except Helen Wills Moody.

It's scary to think what Connolly would have accomplished if not for injury.

10. Evonne Goolagong
Goolagong slides on to the list because we run out of truly dominant players in modern history. Justine Henin almost certainly would have surpassed her, but then she went and retired. Most interesting fact about Goolagong: Won a major after having a kid.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#2 » by BlackMamba » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:23 pm

shouldn't navratilova be #1, she continues to win tournaments as we speak!!! yes, i know, i know...

and both williams sisters in the top 10? of course, i don't know much about women players... but where are ivanovic, sharapova, kournikova (hehehehe... catch my drift?)


well, on the more serious side, i agree in how you catalog men and i believe federer will eventually break sampras' record and should be #1 without ANY question from NO-ONE. consider this year a bad year for federer, 4 grand slam semifinal, 3 grand slam finals, 1 grand slam win, and it was his bad year!!!!

i hope he comes back strong next year and win all 4 grand slams.

oh, and just to wonder, how far is nadal from the top 10?
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#3 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:22 am

BlackMamba wrote:shouldn't navratilova be #1, she continues to win tournaments as we speak!!! yes, i know, i know...

and both williams sisters in the top 10? of course, i don't know much about women players... but where are ivanovic, sharapova, kournikova (hehehehe... catch my drift?)


well, on the more serious side, i agree in how you catalog men and i believe federer will eventually break sampras' record and should be #1 without ANY question from NO-ONE. consider this year a bad year for federer, 4 grand slam semifinal, 3 grand slam finals, 1 grand slam win, and it was his bad year!!!!

i hope he comes back strong next year and win all 4 grand slams.

oh, and just to wonder, how far is nadal from the top 10?


Navratilova has won 167 total tournaments, Evert won 157. Negligible difference, particularly when you factor in that Evert accomplished more in major tournaments. The thing about winning a comparison based on longevity is that you have to clearly surpass your opponent on the overall count, otherwise you've got nothing going for you. I will say though that if you factor in doubles, Navratilova is #1 hands down.

Regarding Nadal, another couple years like 2008 he'll definitely be in the top 10. If he does even better, could be in a year.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#4 » by BlackMamba » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:11 pm

oh, i didn't know evert has that much tournaments wins.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#5 » by Slava » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Evert and Navratilova is a hard argument and there isn't enough argument to put one over the other.

Won't argue with Monica Seles either, at one time she won 7 out of 9 grandslams and her career almost ended with that incident at the age of just 19!

I could point out Martina Hingis though but its tough to see who she replaces from that list.

Helen Wills moody is another one missing out.

She racked up all her Slams at Wimbledon (eight), the U.S. Open (seven) and the French (four) without ever trying the Australian. America's first big female tennis star, from 1927 to 1932, she did not lose a set in singles anywhere.


I'm a little iffy about Connors over Laver but then again I haven't seen either of them play other than just watching some taped films.

Then there's Bill Tilden.

French Championships
Singles finalist: 1927, 1930
Mixed champion: 1930
Wimbledon Championships
Singles champion: 1920, 1921, 1930
Doubles champion: 1927
U.S. Championships
Singles champion: 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1929
Singles finalist: 1918, 1919, 1927
Doubles champion: 1918, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1927
Doubles finalist: 1919, 1926
Mixed champion: 1913, 1914, 1922, 1923
Mixed finalist: 1916, 1917, 1919, 1921, 1924


Actually quite surprising to see how many other amazing male players actually have to miss a top 10 list when compared to the women's rankings. Players like Becker, Newcombe, Fred Perry, Guillermo Vilas, Edberg, Mats Vilander, Arthur Ashe and so on were amazing players, which makes me think twice about putting Andre Agassi on that list.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#6 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:32 pm

BlackMamba wrote:oh, i didn't know evert has that much tournaments wins.


You're not alone. So many people, myself included growing up, think of her as the woman who always got second place, but it really isn't true.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#7 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:32 pm

jfar, I'm glad someone brought up Tilden and Wills Moody. Truth is it's just tough to know how good they were, and I just don't see them getting the better of the players on this list.

As far as Connors vs Laver, you're definitely not alone. Let me give my spiel of why I think Laver is overrated:

People point to Laver as the man who won a Grand Slam in his last amateur year and in his first pro year, and it makes people think that this is a guy who literally would have won 30 majors had he not gotten unlucky. The truth of the matter is that the amateur Grand Slam didn't mark him as anything more than a great prospect at the time, because the big boys were playing pro ball. And when he went to the pros the next year, it was very clear that he wasn't in the running for the best player in the world. So when you actually count things out using the substitute majors the pros use, Laver comes off as clearly inferior career wise to someone else in his era (Rosewall). Now, Laver still did manage a pro Grand Slam, and that is very impressive. However, sweeping the pro majors in a year wasn't that out there at the time. Both Laver and Rosewall did that in the substitute pro majors.

So when I look at Laver, I see a great player, but I don't see him as somebody with accomplishments that dwarf later players. He pretty much matches in line with them, and there's no doubt that competition got harder when kids knew at a young age you could make a fortune playing tennis.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#8 » by Slava » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:56 am

Interesting note on Laver but Laver's game had a complete arsenal of shots. He's known to have invented the top spin drives as a leftie and he had the variety as well as the accurate shot making prowess that very few elitest of tennis players can boast of and combined with the time and labor he put into his game, I really believed that he could have beaten any player in his prime.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#9 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:02 am

j-far wrote:Interesting note on Laver but Laver's game had a complete arsenal of shots. He's known to have invented the top spin drives as a leftie and he had the variety as well as the accurate shot making prowess that very few elitest of tennis players can boast of and combined with the time and labor he put into his game, I really believed that he could have beaten any player in his prime.


Well, something I don't knock him as much for as I used to, but I can't let go entirely: Laver was 5'8, Rosewall (the other great player of the 60s) was 5'7. I have a real tough time thinking these guys were truly the equal of a guy like Nadal who is half a foot taller, as strong as you can get for his height, and agile as a fox. I give them the edge based on longevity, but no, the Rosewall-Laver style player of today is a clear physical improvement over back then.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#10 » by Slava » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:02 am

Quite an interesting point and something very relevant when you compare players of different generations but if you don't make a relative comparison between generations, there are also other factors like the advancements in equipment like the raquets, modern training facilities etc that you need to consider other than just the physical prowess of the modern athletes.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#11 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 5, 2008 10:20 pm

j-far wrote:Quite an interesting point and something very relevant when you compare players of different generations but if you don't make a relative comparison between generations, there are also other factors like the advancements in equipment like the raquets, modern training facilities etc that you need to consider other than just the physical prowess of the modern athletes.


I do try to normalize for things like equipment and facilities, but the average person has increased in size by anything like 6 inches in the last 40 years. On the other hand, the amount of money you can make playing tennis for a living has of course skyrocketed, meaning that the talent pool is much bigger than before and you should expect that a person with an inherent talent for tennis is more likely to dedicate themselves to it today than back then. Hell you can tell that just from seeing how dominant a small country like Australia was back then.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#12 » by Veggamattic » Mon Feb 2, 2009 2:45 am

Monica Seles arrived on the scene during Steffi's prime and dominated her. Although Navratilova was awesome for a long time I still think Seles brought the game to a whole different level.

She was 55-1 in majors in the 2 years before she got stabbed. The one was the Wimbeldon where she was banned from grunting. This was while Martina and Chrissy were still stars and Steffi was in her prime. Steffi got lucky when Monica was stabbed. She would be in the same breath as Arancha S.V. if it hadn't happened.

If you are talking about best careers that would send my vote toward MN but the 2 best players in woman's tennis history, while in there prime, playing their best tennis...Seles and Serena. Serena would win in 3 sets.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#13 » by Ong_dynasty » Tue Feb 3, 2009 10:18 am

I have a problem with Sampras being no.1 Just because of his inability to even challenge in clay or the French.
Even though Federer has not won in Roland Garros, you can see he can challenge for it and if it wasn't because of the fact he is playing the best player to play in that surface (I think Nadal will surpass Borg sooner rather than later).
For me the top 3 is..
Borg
Federer (which he will surpass soon)
Sampras
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#14 » by THEmasterWAYNE » Sat Feb 7, 2009 10:34 pm

They showed this during ESPN's post match commentary:

Nadal vs. Federer at the same age
22 years, 7 months, and 28 days

Overall Record
Nadal 344-78
Federer 259-112

Titles
Nadal 32
Federer 14

Hard Court Titles
Nadal 8
Federer 9

Major Titles
Nadal 6
Federer 2

Weeks @ #1
Nadal 24
Federer 10

Record vs. #1's
Nadal 12-6
Federer 2-3

:D
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#15 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 8, 2009 8:43 pm

THEmasterWAYNE wrote:They showed this during ESPN's post match commentary:

Nadal vs. Federer at the same age
22 years, 7 months, and 28 days

Overall Record
Nadal 344-78
Federer 259-112

Titles
Nadal 32
Federer 14

Hard Court Titles
Nadal 8
Federer 9

Major Titles
Nadal 6
Federer 2

Weeks @ #1
Nadal 24
Federer 10

Record vs. #1's
Nadal 12-6
Federer 2-3

:D


Well sure, but it's pretty well established that Federer a relatively late bloomer. Nadal's more impressive than Federer was at that age, but so was Boris Becker.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#16 » by Slava » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:36 am

^^ Pretty true. That was a period when any of Roddick/Hewitt/Ferrero/Safin/Federer could have ascended to the #1 spot and Federer just took his game to another level entirely since then.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#17 » by evhershman95 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:10 pm

I think John macenroe had a better game than Roger Federer
Idk about his temper tho
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:03 pm

evhershman95 wrote:I think John macenroe had a better game than Roger Federer
Idk about his temper tho


Eh, if you want to give McEnroe the all-time nod on peak, I think you've got a good case. McEnroe's '84 was amazing. Career-wise though, McEnroe is pretty far down the list though.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#19 » by Slava » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:31 pm

I see no reason to put McEnroe over Bjorn Bjorg over the course of his career.
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Re: 10 Greatest Players of All Time (Men & Women) - 2008 

Post#20 » by KING JAMES1978 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:09 pm

For me Federer is the GOAT.Sampras was great but Federer is better and greater.

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