"Suns Marginalize Boris Diaw..."

[-SDU-]

I still don't see the love affair with Barnes and his 3 point shooting. His best he has shot is .366% and last season he shot .293%.

Compared to what Hill has done, his best is .347% and last season .317%. Now we don't consider him a 3 point threat, or more so a potent 3 point shooter, so what makes Barnes so much of a threat?

Just something that has always baffled me.

ah dan, the numbers dont tell the truth. Im talking about a three point threat. someone who forces the other team to space the floor and leave the big men open or to knock down the shots if the opposition dares double team.

and as far as this goes, Matt Barnes would be considered more of a threat from downtown than hill. To look further into the numbers..... you must consider a couple of things

1st - im banking on barnes hitting the form of 2 seasons ago, last season was a slump as far as im concerned

2nd, going back to 2 seasons ago, when barnes hit .366% of his shots, (compare that to hills best of .347, barnes hit 106 three pointers, which is more than grant hill has hit in his entire career.

even last year barnes hit 53 and hill 33 and barnes played 12 minutes per game less than hill.

My thoughts are that barnes is, and also gives the perception to the opposition that, a bigger 3 point threat and therefore the defense is more likely to be worried about him out there which in turn then opens up the middle

if they had to chose to double, or not, and hill was on the court, they would use hills man to double and force hill to take that 3 he doesnt like. Barnes on the other hand will find his home there and is more likely to cash in as thats what he does best

[lilfishi22]

Hill's game is inside the arc and has always been. He expanded his range a little bit last season to the 3pt but he hasn't hit it with much consistency (.317% as NF33 quoted.) While he may increase his % this season he's someone who takes it to the rim and draws fouls. Barnes on the other hand would take the 3 without a second thought. Hill would always have that hesitance to shoot from that range because he's played his whole career inside the arc, it's just his instincts that tell him to get closer.

This is why Barnes is considered a 3pt threat. Barnes will shoot 8 3's in a game if he's given the opportunity and history has shown that he can hit a lot of those on the odd night. But leaving him wide open would be a bad mistake by any opponent. Hill won't shoot more than 2 three's in a game even if the opportunity was given to him. It's just not in his game to shoot that many from downtown. This is the kind of perception SDU talked about. The opponents would not leave Barnes to shoot the 3, while they would have second thoughts of leaving an inside double team to get to Hill at the arc.

I'm also hoping Barnes would return to form this season with his 3pt shot since he should be getting consistent minutes with us. However our new half court offense would slow the game down a fair bit and thus our 3pt guys won't be getting as many open looks as we were playing under the SSOL system. So it could really go either way. Considering GSW had a much faster and arguably more potent offense than us last season, Barnes 3pt % this season shouldn't be any higher than it was under Nellie ball. Fortunately unlike GSW, we actually have 1-2 inside threats that you can't play with single coverage, so that would leave our guys more opened from downtown to shoot. So while his % may rise from his slump last season, I'm not sure it could reach his .366% from 2 seasons back.

Just a little on-topic comment, Diaw is actually a lot more athletic than many thinks he is, whether it be because of his reluctance to drunk every attempt or the fact that he looks a little more round. I've seen some Tayshaun Prince-esque/Josh Smith-esque blocks from the guy which requires a heck of a lot of athleticism. And remember, the guy participated in some french slam dunk competition. All that's left is for him to lose the excess baggage.

[garrick]

If I recall Hill shoots threes better from the corners where the 3pt line is a bit shorter. Not really sure about Barnes but I get the impression that he has more range.

As far as Diaw's weight I think he has added a lot of weight compared to his rookie season, remember that this was a guy who was projected as a pg when he was drafted by Atlanta.

If we play him at the three he has neither the range nor quickness to be effective at that position. His biggest threat is posting up smaller players on the block and passing out of the post if they double him.
At this point he has not shown the ability to drive left and that limits him on his drives, I wonder if this guy is lazy because Amare has shown on a few occasions last seasons that he can go to his left and finish with his off hand.
If Boris can utilize his off hand more that would greatly improve his scoring efficiency as he will be able to find seams in the defense and react accordingly. Someone really needs to motivate him as he has so much potential but he is just doesn't seem like the type that will motivate himself to become a better player.

[rsavaj]

If I recall Hill shoots threes better from the corners where the 3pt line is a bit shorter. Not really sure about Barnes but I get the impression that he has more range.

As far as Diaw's weight I think he has added a lot of weight compared to his rookie season, remember that this was a guy who was projected as a pg when he was drafted by Atlanta.

If we play him at the three he has neither the range nor quickness to be effective at that position. His biggest threat is posting up smaller players on the block and passing out of the post if they double him.
At this point he has not shown the ability to drive left and that limits him on his drives, I wonder if this guy is lazy because Amare has shown on a few occasions last seasons that he can go to his left and finish with his off hand.
If Boris can utilize his off hand more that would greatly improve his scoring efficiency as he will be able to find seams in the defense and react accordingly. Someone really needs to motivate him as he has so much potential but he is just doesn't seem like the type that will motivate himself to become a better player.

I know Amare's at his best in the paint, but I would like to see Amare popping the mid-range a bit more with Shaq feeding him from the post, and maybe Boris could even get in the act. Dude's probably got the 2nd best court-vision on the squad.

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

OK, I understand your point about Barnes shooting more 3's, but IMO quantity does not transfer to making someone a threat. If you have Shaq (I know I am going to extremes here) chucking up 5 3's a game, will that make you guard him? No because he is not going to hit a high percentage.

Sure Barnes hit a fair amount of 3's 2 seasons ago, but c'mon, the guy played in a team that was more made for chucking up 3's than any of our recent squads. Throwing up a shot in Nellies system is like getting a defensive stop for a Pat Riley squad.

Please, don't get me wrong, I like Barnes and I sure as hell want him to shoot like he did 2 seasons ago, BUT, I will not be hanging my hat on him hitting the .366 (106 made) that he did then. Remember his first 3 seasons in the L he didn't play for Nellie, and he only chucked up a combined total of 50 3's.

Again, this is just food for thought. I don't see him as our savior as a 3 point threat, but I am sure as hell hoping he is.

One final note, IMO you don't necessarily have to be able to shoot 3's to be able to spread the floor, a good mid range shooter can also do that, especially one that hits it with regularity and can also blow by you to get to the hole.

[lilfishi22]

NF33-
My point isn't that Barnes shooting more 3's makes him a threat. It isn't about the amount one shoots, it's the perception that you can't leave him open that makes him a threat. Regardless of his % he has that range and if you leave him open he will hit shots. Shaq, by your example, never had that range, so even if you give him that shot, he probably won't hit it. Hill only just extended his range to the 3 very recently, and considering how many years he's played without being a real 3pt threat (not saying he is now), it's much more likely he would want to get to where he's most comfortable, and that's near the rim.

I understand that he wasn't a 3pt threat when he first came into the league, but that was the same with Raja Bell. They both worked on their range and while I can't say Barnes has a totally reliable 3pt shot (.293%), he's definitely worked on it enough to become a threat. But then again, it really depends on the offensive system of the team, Nellie ball is all about hoisting 3's and fast break, it opens up 3pt shooters allowing them to have high % shots. Like I mentioned before, the upside to our system is that we actually have strong post players who will require double teams whereas GSW relied heavily on drive and kick plays and the occasional PNR's with the Latvian dude (it's late and I forgot his name.) So we may see him having a few more open shots and hopefully he'll hit them at a decent %, I'm hoping around 35% but he may even shoot better than that.

Long story short, is he the much needed 3pt shooter we talked about at the beginning of the off season? No, and I never claimed that. But we got him for a mad price and while he isn't a Mike Miller or Michael Redd, he will hit the 3 if left wide opened if that's what you mean.

And yeah, you're right about floor spacing without the 3pt shot. Amare does it very well for us with his sweet mid range shot. Hill is also an excellent floor spacer because he has a very reliable shot from within the arc.

Garrick-
That's the problem with some point forwards ,they are a jack of all trades but master of none. If Diaw had played in the post exclusively for the majority of his career, he would have a very different game to what he has today. He was probably soft before he came into the league, but playing a point forward hasn't helped. I don't live in Phoenix so I don't know how he is during the off season, but I kinda have to question his work ethics, especially when I keep hearing about him turning up the training camp overweight. You would expect a player playing under an offensive system which requires them to be able to shoot, to have developed a decent mid range shot by now. Amare had an ugly, flat looking shot when he came into the league, now he's almost automatic if you leave him open.

But he wouldn't have to worry about things like a mid range shot or his problems going left or right, if he plays in the post more. It's a shame there's not enough room in the post for both STAT and Diaw. They would make a very good offensive pair. Maybe if we played a bit of Diaw and Lopez at the 4 and 5, he would be more effective.

[PHXfan85]

I didn't read all these posts, but I have always felt that Diaw has played better when he has started. When he starts, it's almost as if he understands what he is supposed to do and when he subs he kind of runs around aimlessly and is not positioned correctly at critical times. I have shared this observation with others and have been in agreement to a certain extent. Just my observations, I don't know how much stats can back that up.

Either way, I'm two cents poorer at the moment.

[eastsidecrossover]

I agree, Diaw has done better when he starts. However, he also did better when Amare was out. People seem to remember the last two games of a horrible series. He did well, however, we did not win both games. Also, with him at the 3, it took the ball out of our best players in nash and amare. His game is not suited for the 3. He is a point forward, and does not play the roll this team needs when he comes in at the 3.

They should get the ball more and it put these guys out of place. IMO, diaw is a hybrid forward. He does not have the quickness and game of a 3, but does not have the power game of a 4. Hes a tweener. With Shaq, amare, and nash, we need guys who can catch and shoot, spread the floor, and barns does that as a starter. Same with Hill. I think Diaw is at his best at the 4/5. I think he will get more time at the 4/5 with shaq getting more rest. When Amare is out, he is good next to shaq. Diaw has talent, the problem is he only had one good year. He is overpaid and can thrive in the right team as a point forward. As of now, we might be lucky to get 11 pts a game out of him for that 9 mill a year.

Last, Barns brings a mental toughness that Diaw has never shown, and Hill has to a point. Yeah, he might not be the best player, but his intensity, work ethic on D should give him the nod as the starter. Bell needs that wing defender to help him out.

[b-ball forever]

I've always thought that starting Diaw @ 3 would be an interesting option against certain teams of the league, specifically teams with big/physical frontcourts such as Utah/Pistons/Spurs/Lakers etc.

Against the smaller teams tho, I like the idea of starting Barnes, and that we're gonna give Matt a chance to prove himself straight up. He's got what it takes to be an upgraded version of James Jones for us.
If that doesn't workout for chemistry reasons, I'm fine with starting Hill vs the smaller teams so long as he plays 25 MPG GRAND MAX! Don't wanna see him go crashin out due to killer minutes just in time for the playoffs again like he did last year.

[tsherkin]

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about Boris starting, so I'm glad of all the Barnes-is-starting talk.

TBH, as far as ball-handling... Nash + "dump the ball inside to Shaq and let him be a point-center" works for me. Most of Phoenix's half-court offense is predicated on half-court movement without the ball and the high sidescreen anyway, that doesn't really involve a lot of need for multiple perimeter penetrators. Look at the Lakers' title squads... Fisher was an acceptable ball-handler but 90% of the time, that ball-handling was breaking a press or a trap, so it's not really dangerous stuff. Raja can do that crap. ANd if they feel like it, they can play Dragic alongside Nash because he's nearly Raja's height and they can use Nash off-ball in spurts to screw with people. Diaw should be show-cased early and then traded for whatever they can get back, preferably a 2.

And really, Barnes starting doesn't mean Barnes is playing 30+ minutes a night for sure; the Suns can sub in Hill at any time to increase their ball-handling options and Barnes will be happy with 25-30 consistent minutes, IMO. Just as long as he's out on the floor for a few shifts at 5+ minutes a crack.

[-SDU-]

not that we EVER would., but i could see an argument being made to have diaw start at C (or PF) with amare at the other spot and have shaq on as 6th man which then enables HIM to run the offense when nash is off