Theus to introduce triangle offense to Kings

[KF10]

Well, in the Kings board, we were discussing the positives of the Triangle Offense under the Kings roster. Well, obviously, Laker fans as yourself are familiar of this offense than any other people. So, can you explain the positives and negatives of this particular offense? Will it work well under this roster? Thanks in advance!

Here are several quotes in the Sac Bee article regards of the Triangle Offense:

As the long road back to relevance began anew with Monday's media day at the team's practice facility, the new faces and renewed optimism was joined by the admission the offense just might look new and improved as well. Kings coach Reggie Theus is implementing the vaunted triangle offense.

The ambitious plan was first introduced in summer league in July. Theus passed word to his assistants to begin coaching the players on the ins and outs of the system, one made famous by coach Phil Jackson with his Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers teams and is as difficult to master as it can be to defend.

The goal is to eliminate stagnant feel on the floor and rely more on creative freedom and athleticism, and the change in personnel should aid the cause. Although Ron Artest's talents were indisputable, so, too, was the reality that the forward, who was traded to Houston in August, was notorious for breaking set plays and relying too much on isolation play.

"(It's) running more with continuity more so than calling plays," Theus said of the triangle. "I just think that allowing these guys to be as athletic as they are, to learn to play together and to grow as a team, you have to give them the freedom to do that.

"The triangle … (and) all of the intricacies of that offense are very difficult to learn because there are 100 reads. It's about reads, and it's going to take some time to get good at. Those who run that type of system will tell you that once you get it, they just play. And that's what I'm trying to get, is to give them a chance to just play."

Theus said his system last season had elements of the triangle, but this will be a significant step.

"Last year is the beginning parts of the triangle," he said. "We just elevated it to the next three or four levels."

The issue of offensive personality could have everything to do with Theus' future. The second-year coach enters this season in the final guaranteed year of his contract needing to prove himself on two fronts. His ability to teach and develop young talent will be a priority, as will establishing a system that's more pleasing to the fans and Kings basketball president Geoff Petrie. Second-year center Spencer Hawes, for one, said he is encouraged by the plan.

"I think it's just a natural next step of our offense, given that most of our bigs are such good passers," Hawes said. "You look at (the triangle's) success over the last 10 to 15 years, the success the Lakers and Bulls before that had with it. It's no secret. It works."

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1276001.html

[hermes]

copy cats

[fareweatherfan]

The positives:

Kevin Martin - athletic SG can create his own shot and slash decently.
Brad Miller - good passing big man, good range foul line extended.
Chemistry - from the little I saw last season (and outside of Artest, of course) you guys seem to really play for each other.

These are only the positives that stand out to me, may be many more, e.g. Udrih seems like an intelligent enough PG to initiate the Tri. I'm just not familiar enough with your roster moves since last season. Definitely good Artest is gone, can't see him buying into the Tri with last year's team.

The negatives:

Where do I begin? I'll let others add more negatives, let me just say I hope you guys have patience. The lack of superstars and an experienced coaching staff will make this one trying endeavor.

Gluck!

[andykeikei]

Where to begin...
To operate in a triangle offense, players must have good fundamentals and basketball IQ. IMO if players can play muliple positions is a plus. They can rotate and take turns to work in the post, or the wings. Also the coach is not going to call play because the triangle offense relies heavily on players' reading of the game. They should see how the defenders move and react accordingly. So in theory when triangle is well executed, it is an offense that cannot be guarded. It is also said to be an ideal offense to break zone D.
However, nothing is perfect. Spacing will always be an issue to the new comers. That's why Phil Jackson always prefer veteran over athletic young players.

That's pretty much all I know about the triangle offense. Sadly I don't have much knowledge about the Kings players so I don't know if it is a good offense for you guys.

[KF10]

Oh, I see. Thanks. Well, we have several players that are multi-dimensional talented. (Versatile). The starting lineup for the Kings (Assuming):

Udrih
Martin
Salmons
Moore
Miller

I think, if we play with our strength. I think we can run the Triangle Offense to some extent pretty well. We have players that has high basketball IQ i.e Miller/Martin/Udrih

[DubaLakers]

Honestly no idea why Theus would want to introduce the triangle. Unless he has a guaranteed tenure or something. It could cost him his job. It's a very long process and will bring a lot of frustration on so many levels...fans, media, players, coaches. You can't have a lot of turnover either as far as player personell, too much time involved in the teaching and learning process.

[KF10]

Honestly no idea why Theus would want to introduce the triangle. Unless he has a guaranteed tenure or something. It could cost him his job. It's a very long process and will bring a lot of frustration on so many levels...fans, media, players, coaches. You can't have a lot of turnover either as far as player personell, too much time involved.

Yeah, that is actually an interesting point. Well, Theus signed with the Kings for a 3 year contract. I'm pretty sure all those years are guaranteed. The only Triangle person experience (iirc) we have is the Kings assistant coach, Randy Brown. He played with the Jordan's Bulls in the 90's. So, lets see if this offense is ideal for the Kings...knowing that we have the lack of experience...

[ronnymac2]

I don't know how good the kings are with offensive rebounding, but you should improve in this regard. The triangle is basically about reading and moving into open spaces, the path of least resistance. Normally, teams that run the triangle are good offensive rebounding teams, even though they shoot a high fg%. Their offensive rebounding % usually goes up, too.

Your players need to be patient, too. Your team seems to not have any selfish players, and as previously said, your team is also pretty versatile, so from a team perspective, the concept should work nicely. Having shooters helps, and a big man passer (miller is very good).

And though the offensive rebounding should improve, so should the transition defense. I know this seems weird (since those 2 things usually contrast each other), but its all about spacing and where the players are moving to. Plus, the kings seem fairly young, so that should help their transition d anyway lol.

The early problem will be the learning curve. its a hard offense to adjust to. With the shaq/kobe lakers, phil jackson said even after they had won their first title in 2000, that team wasn't close to knowing the offense as well as his bulls teams did. And thats with shaq, kobe, ron harper, and a bunch of veterans. So it'll take some time to adjust. Also with udrih, the pg doesn't exactly RUN the offense, its a team run offense. So all udrih has to do is play smart, move, be a good post-entry passer, and shoot the ball well (and create and drive when everything fails lol).

Lacking a dominant post threat will hurt. And only having one great offensive player (martin) who can create his own shot hurts, too. The bulls had mj and pip. lakers had shaq and kobe. The kings have martin and......

Overall, the kings have a balanced team. The triangle is good with those kinds of teams. Don't expect miracles of course, but the triangle should help the offense out.

[KF10]

I don't know how good the kings are with offensive rebounding, but you should improve in this regard. The triangle is basically about reading and moving into open spaces, the path of least resistance. Normally, teams that run the triangle are good offensive rebounding teams, even though they shoot a high fg%. Their offensive rebounding % usually goes up, too.

Well, the Kings were #24 in the league in offensive rebounding. And the Lakers are #19 in the league. So, offensive rebounding might affect the offense but not significantly IMO. But then again, offensive rebounding essentially gives you an extra possession. The Kings were #8 in points. The Lakers were #4 in points. The Kings were #10 in FG%. And the Lakers were #3. The Kings were #8 in 3%. And the Lakers were #6. Well, I'm not saying that the Kings are comparable to the Lakers offense efficiency. Which they are not. But the Kings manage to get their offense going somehow. I believe the triangle would help us even more in offense.

Your players need to be patient, too. Your team seems to not have any selfish players, and as previously said, your team is also pretty versatile, so from a team perspective, the concept should work nicely. Having shooters helps, and a big man passer (miller is very good).

Yeah, we are a rebuilding team. We have a lot of patience to develop. But then again, success is also a priority for us as well. The learning curve will be difficult but I believe this Kings team can handle it IMO.

And though the offensive rebounding should improve, so should the transition defense. I know this seems weird (since those 2 things usually contrast each other), but its all about spacing and where the players are moving to. Plus, the kings seem fairly young, so that should help their transition d anyway lol.

Well, I don't have the exact stat. But I know the Kings are pretty poor in transition defense. But then again, like you said, we are pretty young and the defense will somewhat increase... But yeah, spacing/moving should be significant for us. We had the worst turnover rate. And we were basically an isolation base team...But then again, that was in the Artest era. Post-Artest, the Kings should have more offensive freedom and opportunity.

The early problem will be the learning curve. its a hard offense to adjust to. With the shaq/kobe lakers, phil jackson said even after they had won their first title in 2000, that team wasn't close to knowing the offense as well as his bulls teams did. And thats with shaq, kobe, ron harper, and a bunch of veterans. So it'll take some time to adjust. Also with udrih, the pg doesn't exactly RUN the offense, its a team run offense. So all udrih has to do is play smart, move, be a good post-entry passer, and shoot the ball well (and create and drive when everything fails lol).

Yeah, the learning curve will be probably the difficult phase for us this season. The Triangle Offense is a very difficult offense to know. Like you said. But then again, we have bunch of high IQ players, so IMO the learning curve will not be THAT difficult. (Even though, it will).

Lacking a dominant post threat will hurt. And only having one great offensive player (martin) who can create his own shot hurts, too. The bulls had mj and pip. lakers had shaq and kobe. The kings have martin and......

Yeah, with the departure of Shareef. (Our only post presence). The Kings virtually have NO post offense. Well, then again, Spencer Hawes is a post scoring presence and he is VERY good in the post...But has he put significant mass to be effective down low? Time will tell...Well, Martin and Salmons are virtually our main offensive weapons. So, it is not like it is only Martin and junk...

Overall, the kings have a balanced team. The triangle is good with those kinds of teams. Don't expect miracles of course, but the triangle should help the offense out.

Yeah, I do agree the the Triangle offense will help the Kings significantly when run proficiently. I really hope that the learning curve isn't going to kill us THAT much...

[joe.linnen]

Beno Udrih- good point guard
Bobby Jackson- can play point and shootind guard
Bobby Brown

Kevin Martin- good scorer
Quincy Douby

John Salmons
Francisco Garcia- great sixth man
Donte Greene

Mikki Moore - wonderful power forward, great for the tri because of his mid-range
Kenny Thomas- look at Moore
Shelden Williams

Brad Miller - great passer and can move down to power forward too
Spencer Hawes
Jason Thompson

the player without anything beside their names is only because I don't know enought about them, but I thin this team could run the try with no problem after learning it

[KF10]

Beno Udrih- good point guard
Bobby Jackson- can play point and shootind guard
Bobby Brown- Athletic, defensive guard

Kevin Martin- good scorer
Quincy Douby- A SG trapped in a PG's body.

John Salmons- Versatile defensive player that excels in isolation scenarios.
Francisco Garcia- great sixth man
Donte Greene- Tall (defensive) athletic forward that has range.

Mikki Moore - wonderful power forward, great for the tri because of his mid-range
Kenny Thomas- look at Moore
Shelden Williams- A post base player that bangs down low...post defense...

Brad Miller - great passer and can move down to power forward too
Spencer Hawes- A talented post scorer and passer. Has he build muscle mass to be effective down low?
Jason Thompson- A multitalented PF that has guard skills.

the player without anything beside their names is only because I don't know enought about them, but I thin this team could run the try with no problem after learning it

Well, overall, I think the Kings team can learn the Triangle Offense better than other teams IMO. Due to being versatile/balance. Like I said, the learning curve will be the toughest challenge.

[Dr Aki]

in reference to the 2000 shaq/kobe + veterans lakers...

i think it certainly helps the earlier in the players' career you learn it so that the players won't be set in their ways...

but yeh, prepare for a 2-3yr growing period of:
1st year: constant frustration with the triangle being bairly recognisable aside from the basic movements
2nd year: recognisable triangle cohesiveness
3rd year: intermediate understanding

and then you start to get into the intricacies towards mastery

w/o a true superstar (or two!) who can ad-lib your team to victory it will be a frustrating learning curve, if anyone could locate the quote, PJ basically say this current lakers squad do the triangle so much better than any shaq/kobe lakers team ever did

[Chubby Chaser]

If instating the Triangle Offense is a move by Theus to try and save his job or nab him an extension on his contract it's a very risky move. The triangle offense is not something you can just insert in one year or two years. It's a system that necessitates a full commitment not only from players, but also from management. Because the triangle requires certain personnel to effectively run the offense. If they choose to in fact do this, they'll have to commit their future draft picks, trades, and future personnel moves to cater to the offense. You'll start to realize that although you may have a good basketball player, their skill sets may not translate well in the triangle offense. (i.e Gary Payton) The kings will have to start drafting different type of players. Preferable lengthy, athletic wing players that can rotate from the 1-3 positions. You'll also need intelligent players that can make reads, and also hit a mid range jumper, or a 3 point shot to space the floor. You'll need to have players that can move without the ball, and don't need to dominate the ball in order to create their own shot. (This is where Lamar has been so frustrating with the Lakers) Players who cannot make reads will be painfully exposed in the Triangle. They will resemble a fish out of water and thus throw a hefty cog into the smooth flowing offense. On the flip side there will be players who will "get it" perfectly and be very important to your team. Whereas they might not even get much playing time on other teams. I.E. a Luke Walton, Rick Fox, Sasha Vujacic. Needless to say the Triangle offense is not just any other offense that you can just implement in one off season. In order for it to be successful, you'll have to start changing your team's personnel to at least give the offense a shot at working.

[andykeikei]

You know, just curious...
would you guys like some help for the triangle from the lakers players?
I mean we can trade Walton to you...

[KF10]

Thanks you guys..Your info about the triangle offense is very insightful. Greatly appreciated.

You know, just curious...
would you guys like some help for the triangle from the lakers players?
I mean we can trade Walton to you...

Well, let's see.....No, thank you..But hey! Look at this way, if we Kings players learning and gaining experience of the triangle offense, they can be potential Lakers or something in a future trades..Knowing the triangle offense before getting to LA is very significant and beneficiary.

[microfib4thewin]

The only problem I see is that the Kings doesn't have an exceptional post scorer. The Triangle is about exploiting mismatches and finding the best opportunity to score, and that often mean you have to finish plays from the inside. Other than that, the Kings players I do know seem well rounded fundamentally to tackle on the triangle and there aren't any chemistry issues afaik.

[amb1ent]

Thanks you guys..Your info about the triangle offense is very insightful. Greatly appreciated.

You know, just curious...
would you guys like some help for the triangle from the lakers players?
I mean we can trade Walton to you...

Well, let's see.....No, thank you..But hey! Look at this way, if we Kings players learning and gaining experience of the triangle offense, they can be potential Lakers or something in a future trades..Knowing the triangle offense before getting to LA is very significant and beneficiary.

man, you know it's bad when not even kenny thomas will be trade for luke

[KF10]

man, you know it's bad when not even kenny thomas will be trade for luke

Luke is actually a solid player but he has more value to the Lakers than anyone in the league...(Well, you can count the Kings as well..if they are truly want to run a significant part of the triangle offense..) But then again, Walton's contact length is so NOT ideal for a rebuilding team like Sacramento...Not taking away anything from him.

Theus is planning to play Kenny Thomas actually. IMO Thomas can benefit from the triangle. He is the ideal PF for that offense...

[Erik Eleven]

Thomas and Miller will both benefit from this offense. So will Garcia and Udrih, who both play relatively well off the ball and can knock down the open shot. Theus is a sharp coach. I think this is a good move. Risky, but wise for the long term if he can keep his job along the way.

The type of player that typically flourishes in this offensive system (and any other, he he) is one that possesses a healthy dose of the following three;

a) High basketball IQ, as in; quick thinking, moves well off the ball, lots of patience, reads defenses well, makes solid decisions and crisp passes. Since the triangle offense is a reactionary offense, sharp brains and good instincts are required from all five for the offense to flow.

b) Potent offensive ability; be it perimeter shooting, freakish athleticism or low-post put-back ability, or good old simple veteran timeliness. If you're an offensive threat, a fitting look will come to you sooner or later in the triple post offense.

c) Team mentality. A player must like to be part of a five man machine. A player that considers the easiest basket for any team mate being the ultimate goal of each possession will love to play in the triangle. All players must move the right way off the ball based on what the defense is giving them and react together as a group — as a team.

There's plenty of info online about how the offense is initiated depending on different defensive looks etc.

I think it'll fit your roster well. Like someone else said, you don't have a dominant low post scorer, but you can still initiate the offense through Miller and open up space for back cuts etc down low. He's a great passer and has good range. Just set him up at the high post and start going inside outside.

[KF10]

Yeah, thanks! Just another question, what will Kevin Martin's role be? Assuming that he is the #1 option of offense...i.e. Kobe...Will he average more points in this system? More assists? I do have a good idea what is the answer but I want you guys to say it because you know more of the offense than me.