OT: Bailout rant

[jazzfan1971]

Both of Utah's senators voted for the bailout today. I'm very disappointed. That bill is a terrible one for America IMHO, and I don't think many Utahns supported it.

I'm making it my mission to try and get 10 folks to vote against each of those spineless piles of crap.


I've allready emailed all of our congressmen. I'm holding out hope that the house can stop this march towards socialism.

[Pai Gow]

You CAN'T make a difference

/end rant

[DelaneyRudd]

OK,m maybe you already have a house, but I need credit to eventually get something to own someday. This is absolutely needed, unless you like the idea of the USA becoming more like democratic Russia.

[jazzfan1971]

Been turned down for a loan lately?

[DelaneyRudd]

For school, yes. But here's the real point. The page has turned. We have been fed our whole lives that Marx was an evil communist. He isn't. He understood the natural and organic progression from agrarian society into industrial society into modern society. There is no evil inherit in capitalism, socialism, communism. We take progress as it comes naturally. No maxim of decency is being broken by the government buying the bad debt that allowed our standard of living to progress. The only maxim is that the government work in favor of it's shareholders, namely the American people. And this corporation's holdings are basically 1:1. You can't buy in more than citizenship. A new era is here. A uniquely now experience. It has no equal in the annals of history. We can worry about ducking and covering under our desks for protection from the Reds or we can forge a new 21st century, where fairness, work value, and universal security can be real. No one has really ever succeeded in our current scenario. America was a frontier. That's over. The new way is economic and educational freedom, basic standards for living, and opportunity based on ability and knowledge.

[schneiderjazz]

For school, yes. But here's the real point. The page has turned. We have been fed our whole lives that Marx was an evil communist. He isn't. He understood the natural and organic progression from agrarian society into industrial society into modern society. There is no evil inherit in capitalism, socialism, communism. We take progress as it comes naturally. No maxim of decency is being broken by the government buying the bad debt that allowed our standard of living to progress. The only maxim is that the government work in favor of it's shareholders, namely the American people. And this corporation's holdings are basically 1:1. You can't buy in more than citizenship. A new era is here. A uniquely now experience. It has no equal in the annals of history. We can worry about ducking and covering under our desks for protection from the Reds or we can forge a new 21st century, where fairness, work value, and universal security can be real. No one has really ever succeeded in our current scenario. America was a frontier. That's over. The new way is economic and educational freedom, basic standards for living, and opportunity based on ability and knowledge.

OMG, Delaney! Where did that come from?
I'm Brazilian, but I agree with everything you just said. Marx is considered one of the most respected minds in the world, except maybe in the US. I don't think this bill will solve your economic problems, but it will definitely help your country in these difficult times and basically every other country in the world too. And I assure you, Jazzfan, that the US won't become a socialist state. Hell will freeze over before it happens.

[JDubJazz]

How quickly people forget. Everyone is acting like this is the first big financial crisis the US has ever seen and how it will be the end of democracy. In other word's: its the government's fault. Well, you are partly right. Both the Clinton and Bush administration's catastrophic failure to put limits on predatory lending practices and corporate America's blatant hijacking of this country's wealth have led us to this point.

There is another element to this, though: American's have apparently lost the ability to think critically and possibly to even read. No one forced American's to sign on the dotted line for those rediculous variable and adjustable rate mortgages.

I comes down to a simple fact: We've been spending more than we could afford, and now we have to pay the piper. I don't like the bailout bill, but I do see it as an unfortunate economic necessity (I am an economist, by the way). The thing that is absolutely driving me nuts, however, is the fact that so many corporate fat cats are getting to keep their obscene spoils of war. In my opinion, if a company receives a government bailout, the the board of directors should be suspended and the CEO and CFO should be terminated. Additionally, all senior mangement bonuses should be cancelled. The lack of corporate and personal accountability involved in this crisis is shameful.

Finally, the absolute best thing we could do as American's is to institute nationwide constitutional term limits. No Congressperson should serve more than three terms (totalling 6 years), and no Senator should serve more than 10 (two 5 year terms). The only way to fix a corrupted system is to make sure that the corrupt politicans are removed from office, and then take away the incentive for their replacements to become as corrupt as their predecessors. By eliminating the need to constantly campaign for reelection, these representatives can concentrate on the task at hand rather than filling their reelection coffers.

I've never gone this far into an election year without knowing for whom I will be voting. I feel like its a choice between cutting of my right ear or my left. Either way its going to be ugly. McCain/Palin seem to be completely incompetant on domestic issues, and Obama/Biden seem equally incompetent on foreign relations. Neither McCain or Obama seem to take their faith seriously, opting instead for whatever they perceive to be polically expedient at the time; so I can't trust them to make good choices based on their moral compass, either. Voting for a third party has the same political efficacy of flushing said vote down the toilet. Trying to choose the "lesser of two evils" is really getting tiring. Of all the brilliant leaders we have in this country, we get stuch with these two yahoos?!? Maybe we are getting what we collectively deserve.

/end rant

[carrottop12]

My debit card is personalized with a picture of Karl Marx on it. i.e. I'm a card carrying marxist.

/rend ant

[carrottop12]

Neither McCain or Obama seem to take their faith seriously, opting instead for whatever they perceive to be polically expedient at the time; so I can't trust them to make good choices based on their moral compass, either.

I have to say, as I guess what people would label as an "atheist" I've never understood that sentiment from god fearing men.

A person's humanity is what speaks for them, not what literature they were given when they were young.

I can't judge someone because they don't believe Kurt Vonnegut was a god among men, but that's how I feel.

By the way, aren't "Moral Compass" and "Faith" a funny thing to have in the same sentence. It's like throwing the terms "Middle East" and "Unwavering stability" together. Subjective Oxymorons.

[JDubJazz]

Neither McCain or Obama seem to take their faith seriously, opting instead for whatever they perceive to be polically expedient at the time; so I can't trust them to make good choices based on their moral compass, either.

I have to say, as I guess what people would label as an "atheist" I've never understood that sentiment from god fearing men.

A person's humanity is what speaks for them, not what literature they were given when they were young.

I can't judge someone because they don't believe Kurt Vonnegut was a god among men, but that's how I feel.

By the way, aren't "Moral Compass" and "Faith" a funny thing to have in the same sentence. It's like throwing the terms "Middle East" and "Unwavering stability" together. Subjective Oxymorons.

Certainly their should be no religious test to be President, but I do have a problem with politicians that are religious only to the point of political expediency. I can see why many people have become dissaffected with faith and religion in general. You certainly have the right to believe (or not to) as you choose; but lumping all believers in with religious extremists (be they Muslim, Jew, Christian or other) is doing them and yourself a disservice. For all the horrors that are perpetrated in the name of God by extremist hypocrits, there are tremendously good works accomplished as well by a lot of good, humble people. You seem like one of the more articulate and intelligent posters around here, Bat, so, coming from you, this sentiment does surprise me a bit.

I believe that all men have a moral compass (or conscience, if you prefer) and that how they act in accordance to that conscience defines what kind of person they are. A person's faith and value's system is a part of that, and I don't think it should be a malleable thing, just to court an electorate. What I've seen of both John McCain and Barack Obama, they do not come across as resolute men with an unwavering sense of right. Rather, they seem like they are willing to say anything they have to in order to gain the approval of their parties and their constituencies.

[jazzfan1971]

Interesting how fast my thread on the bailout turned into a religious debate.

And I never knew how many Utahns were Marxists. I find it rather shocking. I thought this was one of the most free market states in the nation.

[ColdBlue]

I'm not sold on this bailout plan either. One week the economy is fundamentally sound, and the next week it's one second away from total destruction. This week our government is starting to sound like a used car salesman. Next week, it will be an infomercial with Bob Bennet screaming... buy within the next 10 minutes and he will include a toaster!

There has to be a better solution than a knee jerk reaction to a lame duck president that has cried wolf many times... I don't care how many carrot sticks are added to this bill... it's a joke.

It's so strange that I'm with the house republicans on this one.

[DelaneyRudd]

Interesting how fast my thread on the bailout turned into a religious debate.

And I never knew how many Utahns were Marxists. I find it rather shocking. I thought this was one of the most free market states in the nation.

Well, this is a state that owns a communist liquor cartel, but that's besides the point. This state was supposed to be built on Communism, just not Washington sponsored.

[carrottop12]

What I've seen of both John McCain and Barack Obama, they do not come across as resolute men with an unwavering sense of right. Rather, they seem like they are willing to say anything they have to in order to gain the approval of their parties and their constituencies.

I honestly don't believe you will ever see a stick to your guns religious candidate ever win the presidency again. The melting pot has gotten far too large for that.

[jazzfan1971]

Too large since 2004?

[JDubJazz]

What I've seen of both John McCain and Barack Obama, they do not come across as resolute men with an unwavering sense of right. Rather, they seem like they are willing to say anything they have to in order to gain the approval of their parties and their constituencies.

I honestly don't believe you will ever see a stick to your guns religious candidate ever win the presidency again. The melting pot has gotten far too large for that.

I agree, completely; but it sure made it easier to vote for someone who I felt would stick by their convictions, even if I disagreed with their policy choices. Now, I guess I need to find a new tiebreaker between what are, in my opinion, equally bad choices.

[carrottop12]

Too large since 2004?

Well, it is larger since 04, but Bush is really not that much of a stick to you guns Christian. Palin is far more religion driven.

Someone with Palin's level or higher won't get elected again as the President if they make religion a huge part of their campaign.

[JStockLivesOn]

Someone with Palin's level or higher won't get elected again as the President if they make religion a huge part of their campaign.

This is true. She's been forced to back off of her insane religious drivel. "The Iraq war is a mission from God" thankfully doesn't fly, even as frightening as the [far, far, far] right is these days.

I have no problem with men of faith. Bush's evangelic beliefs are the absolute least of his problems. But the delusional Pat Robertson/Liberty University right is dangerous in its zeal.

As for the bailout, I'm not crazy about it either, but I think -- regretably -- it's necessary to maintain stability.

[Sloanfeld]

I haven't really read any reasons in this thread why people are against the bailout. And honestly it probably goes to show you that people don't even understand the situation, although the government hasn't done a great job of marketing it. I'm not going to argue about it though, do your own DD.

[carrottop12]

This is true. She's been forced to back off of her insane religious drivel. "The Iraq war is a mission from God" thankfully doesn't fly, even as frightening as the [far, far, far] right is these days.

I have no problem with men of faith. Bush's evangelic beliefs are the absolute least of his problems. But the delusional Pat Robertson/Liberty University right is dangerous in its zeal.

As for the bailout, I'm not crazy about it either, but I think -- regretably -- it's necessary to maintain stability.

100% with everything you say.

I have no problem with a man of any religion, and if it helps him do whats right for the world, you go for it. Once it starts stepping on other peoples toes however they need to check themselves.

And I agree with the bailout. It doesn't seem like the best accomplishment of all time, but it was just going to get worse so...