Five weeks in

[ReasonablySober]

and this team is in trouble.

We can't stop the run and we can't rush the passer. If healthy, I thought this defense would be top 10, maybe even top five. Take out Harris and Jenkins and add in an unhealthy dose of Hawk, Rouse, Bigby and KGB and you have a team that won't stop many teams. Does anyone see hope going forward?

Say what you want about the offensive line. Yes, that's a problem. But I think the running game showed life on Sunday and when the Packers go with the spread they can move the ball. I don't see Green Bay having a problem scoring. It's stopping the other team from scoring more that's going to kill us.

It took me until week six but I'm combing draft sites already. In terms of importance, here's where I see the needs on this team:

1 - OT - Tauscher will have to be replaced in '09. Clifton could be too if his play doesn't pick up.
2 - DE - If Jenkins and Kampman are both healthy then they're fine as starters, but we desperately need another pass rusher in the rotation.
3 - DT - Jolly is probably getting suspended. Cole is just a guy. We still don't know what we have in Harrell. Pickett is going to go on the decline soon.
4 - OG - I only take one in the first round if one of the good ones fall. Duke Robinson and Andre Smith are two that could wind up being All-Pros in the NFL.
5 - CB - I actually like the trio of young guys we have in Williams, Blackmon and Lee. I think we could certainly use a stud prospect, but with the needs on the line I don't see how Green Bay could pass up an elite OL/DL prospect to go with a top DB.

I don't know how good or bad this team is right now. They haven't been blown out in any of their losses, but they could have lost both of their wins too. I just see the injuries to the defense essentially ruining this season. I look at the remaining schedule and I honestly only see a couple wins. Obviously injuries will play a big role in how the record ends up, but I'm just not optimistic we make it to seven or maybe even six wins.

My early draft wish list:

1 - Michael Johnson - Only watched him twice and he hasn't dominated as much as you would like, but neither did Mario Williams.
2 - Andre Smith - At either tackle or guard, I think he's going to wind up the second best OL prospect since Pace (Joe Thomas)
3 - Michael Oher - Highly heralded because of the book The Blindside, he's going to be a franchise LT
4 - Malcolm Jenkins - I've seen him play almost a dozen times and while I keep trying to find holes in his game, I honestly can't. Similar to another Buckeye, Shawn Springs.
5 - Eugene Monroe - Gonna have to watch him more as I only know what I've read. But you can't argue with the pedigree of Virginia offensive linemen.
6 - Rey Maualuga - If the Packers didn't have so many other needs, he'd be my #1. I've wanted to see him wear Green and Gold since I saw him play Cal as a sophomore. Simply put, he's the best college defender I've seen since Charles Woodson. One of the few guys on that side of the ball that can absolutely take over a game.
7 - Duke Robinson - The first offensive guard I'd take in the top ten and not look back.
8 - Tyson Jackson - I like him more than most, I think. I love LSU defenders and this guy can dominate the line. Doesn't really fit Green Bay's system but I'd play him at DT.
9 - Knowshon Moreno - Too good to pass up if everyone else is off the board.
10 - Vontae Davis - Unlike Jenkins, he's a guy that I can find quite a few holes in his game. Has all the measureables but I've seen him give up his share of plays. Still, he's just a junior and passing up a guy with his physical ability at a need position would be tough.

Slow Tuesday and I'm only really hoping to spark some discussion to pass the time.

[Jollay]

The problems on defense go beyond injuries.

As the Journal sentinel pointed out today, the starting front seven has missed one start from one guy thus far. I hear constantly here how corners are overrated and its the front that in large part makes corners good and bad.

I am not willing to chalk this up entirely to injuries. TT builds the team through the draft, explicitly for depth purposes. We were bad before and after Cullen Jenkins, and we should be able to do better with or without him.

Good list as always for the college guys, and why I appreciate greatly you and others' input. Eugene Monroe I've seen a few times. He's a physical beast who I like a great deal. Don't think he dominates yet, but he does the job solidly and has all the tools.

Can't see how UVA is always mediocre at best with guys like this constantly coming through. But thats Al Groh.

[bucks59]

I agree that this team is in trouble and that it is hard to place. In two of the three losses, the Packers had a chance to win at the end. At the same time, they also could have lost both of the wins they had. I think the biggest problem is the combination of injuries and the upcoming schedule.

I think its going to be absolutely critical to get the running game going by the end of the bye week. They should also have a ton of opportunities to fix the problems with the running game in the next three weeks. For one, the Colts are giving up a ton of rushing yards a game this season, and it would almost be pathetic if the Packers couldn't run against them. Additionally, the best way to counteract an injured defense is to run the ball and control the clock. The Packers do have big play capability, but until key defensive players come back, the Packers need to control the ball and have long drives on offense allowing the defense rest. Also, the running game should have three weeks to figure things out. Seattle just gave up a ton of rushing yards to Jacobs, the Colts rush defense is terrible, and then there is the bye. The Packers really need to focus on fixing the problems with the running game. Its especially important given that they play some good rush defenses after the bye (Ten, Chicago, Min, Carolina). The Packers could easily afford to just run against Seattle, that team has a lot of issues right now and it would be hard to lose to them I think.

I personally think that the Bears are probably going to win nine or ten games this season. So the Packers are going to have to win at least seven more games, maybe even eight. Houston, Seattle, and Detroit should be guaranteed wins. Everything else is going to be tough. @Seattle, Indi, bye, @Ten, @Min, Chicago, @ NO, Carolina, Houston, @Jac, @ Chicago, Detroit. That looks really rough to me. Indi is a game they could win, and they are another team that is hard to figure out given their injuries, but they also have been able to steal two games this year. I think thats a game the Packers can win, but its also almost a must win game.

After the bye, the schedule is brutal. The Titans are arguably the best team in football right now, and they might run all over the Packers and might also hurt Rodgers given their defense. The Vikings have I guess improved? They are hard to figure out right now, but given the way the rush defense has been as of late, AP could run for several hundred yards against the Packers. I think the Packers win one of those Chicago games but Forte has been playing pretty well, and he also might run all over the Packers. The key there might just be the inevitable injuries that the Bears will also suffer. NO has a better passing game than a running game, and their defense is pretty bad, but Brees right now is throwing for a ton of yards against everyone. Special teams also might be an issue in that game as well and if our punting situation doesn't improve, Bush might end up with several TD's. Carolina is at home but they have been improved this year, have a good running game and a good defense. Jacksonville is hard to place right now and they are inconsistent, but they could be healthy by the time we play them.

Its going to be tough I think to make the playoffs. It might be impossible to get a wild card spot given how good the NFC East has been thus far this season. Plus, the NFC South has also been pretty good, they have three teams that might finish with good records.

My keys for the rest of this year would be: re-focus on the running game and make sure its where it was during the second half of last year and be more aggressive on defense while changing the current scheme. Sweeping the NFC North would also obviously help, though that probably won't happen.

Looking forward, I think its key to shore up the lines. I dont know much about college football so I won't suggest prospects, but I completely agree with you DB about the offensive and defensive lines. I do think that the Packers are actually ok at the DB spots. I think Williams has looked pretty good so far this year for the most part. Lee actually I thought has looked ok as well and could develop into a good number two corner. Woodson still looks great. I think he was only thrown at once or twice against Atlanta. Harris is getting old, he might only have one more productive season in him but I feel confident that Williams can replace him.

I also wonder if now TT will use that cap space in the off season. Adding just one legit pass rusher or a good DT could go a really really long way towards shoring up that defense I think. At the very least, the d-line needs to add depth. Thats one area that is going to suffer injuries so its important to make sure that there are a ton of bodies that can be thrown in there. Its going to be important to see what portion of the cap the current young players take up. Hopefully he can get them all signed to extensions this year so that part of their bonuses can count against this years cap.

I also really hope that TT finally decides to acquire a new Defensive Coordinator. The lack of aggressiveness compounded with the injuries is really killing this team. It is not acceptable to play a rookie QB and not get a single sack.

[paulpressey25]

This is a 6-10 team......

The problem is two-fold related to TT

a) We don't seem to yet have new TT draftees/signees the last two years emerging as playmakers like we did in past years (i.e. Jennings, Jones, Bigby, Crosby, etc)

b) TT has added zero to the O and D lines the past two seasons. And what he had there to begin with is getting old.

He can fix this though in the offseason. He just needs to acknowledge what needs to be done and acquire the right guys. This could be back to an 11-5/12-4 team next season.

[ReasonablySober]

This is a 6-10 team......

The problem is two-fold related to TT

a) We don't seem to yet have new TT draftees/signees the last two years emerging as playmakers like we did in past years (i.e. Jennings, Jones, Bigby, Crosby, etc)

b) TT has added zero to the O and D lines the past two seasons. And what he had there to begin with is getting old.

He can fix this though in the offseason. He just needs to acknowledge what needs to be done and acquire the right guys. This could be back to an 11-5/12-4 team next season.

What do you mean in the last two years? Jones, Crosby, Bigby, Grant, Williams?

This last draft is hurting him in the short-term, though. He picked up guys he knew wouldn't be in the mix this season, thinking down the line. Unfortunately with the injuries this team has seen we could use some immediate help.

Eight guys from this last draft of his are still around and could end up extremely valuable members of the team someday. But we're not getting a payoff on them now unfortunately.

[xTitan]

The fall off of Chad Clifton is epic and my belief that is simply killing the offensive line. Tauscher may be slipping but it is not nearly as obvious as Clifton. I thought the interior O-line was solid for the most part against Atlanta....so there is hope for Wells/Spitz.

[El Duderino]

Defensive tackle and offensive tackle need to be priorities, especially if McCarthy wants to continue using a 4-3 defense. Even if he finally cuts ties with Sanders this offseason, we need at least one DT that can do more than absorb blockers in the run game. It's hard to get any consistent pressure on the QB when they pass if offenses don't have to worry at all about pressure inside. Block our ends and the QB can read a book before deciding when to throw.

I had hoped that Jolly would step up and provide some interior pressures, but unfortunately he's been invisible on the pass rush. We need a young end also that can get to the quarterback given KGB seems done and Jeremy Thompson looks like a 4th round version of Jamal Reynolds, a walking block magnet.

I'm fairly pleased with our young corners, but you can't ever have to many decent cover guys

Safety is fine with me

Linebacker is set and hopefully if a new defensive coordinator is brought in, this unit can shine more

A duel threat TE would be nice, none of ours block all that well

Like some others, it's frustrating to watch the Packers get pushed around in the trenches in games this year. Atlanta getting those 10 yards with two minutes left, 10 Packers in the box, and the whole world knowing inside runs were coming was a slap in the face to a defense.

To early for me to get in draft mode. If Rodgers stays on the field, i'm confident the offense will score points. Can't say i feel confident the defense will turn things around. With Jenkins gone, the defensive line simply lacks talent and Sanders isn't creative enough to help mask the talent shortcomings.

[rilamann]

To me the defensive line and Bob Sander's schemes are an issue but the fact we are 2-3 has a ton more to with our O-Line.

Our D might not look quite as bad if they wernt on the field the entire game because our offense cant get 1st downs and run the ball due to our O-line or lack of O-Line I should say.

Our defense also might not look as bad if we had a D cordinator who wasnt so vanilla/conservative/predictable.

We could use more pass rush no doubt about that and maybe another starting caliber DT to help Pickett in the middle but I actually think our secondary and linebackers are fine and will be fine for awhile.

I actually love our secondary going into the next few years,Tamon Williams,Pat Lee,Al Harris,Charles Woodson,Atari Bigby,Nick Collins,Aaron Rouse,Charlie Peprah.

Thats a core of guys right there that is very solid and for the most part young and with Tramon Williams and Pat Lee who think is going to be a great CB in the NFL (Lee im talking about) we are not going to have to depend on Harris & Woodson as much next year and in the comming years.Which in my opinion will extend Harris & Woodson's years in the league.Both will sort of evolve to into solid back ups to Williams & Lee giving us great depth.

I like our linebackers too.

We just have to strengthen the D-line and **** can Bob Sanders thats all.

That O-Line is whats realy killing us this year.

[rilamann]

Oh and I forgot about Blackmon in the secondary group.

And DB that stud CB you want,hes already on the roster his name is Pat Lee.Just watch man hes going to be a good one.

[ReasonablySober]

I like Lee, too.

Disagree on the offensive line. We're scoring points and more than a few sacks are on Rodgers holding the ball, like El Dude has said. It's not stopping anyone that's killing this team.

[rilamann]

I like Lee, too.

Disagree on the offensive line. We're scoring points and more than a few sacks are on Rodgers holding the ball, like El Dude has said. It's not stopping anyone that's killing this team.

I agree the defense hasnt played well and the injuries are a factor and Sanders is as vanilla as they come but if the O-line could establish the running game it would be so huge and would help us overcome some of the defensive issues.

Despite the defensive woes I think we'd be 4-1 right now if we had a decent running game up to this point.

We are scoring points but most of the scores are big plays.This is something im sure we all know but you have to be able to run the ball and have some methodical drives not just to open up the offense and keep the defense off balance but also so that your opponet doesnt have a ton of possessions and your defense gets worn down.

Also,Rodgers has been running for his life it seems on every play,sure some of the sacks are on him hes a young player & 1st year starter so that expected but he cant get comfortable in the pocket at all.

I just feel that if our O-Line could establish the run and protect Rodgers so that he could consistiently stand in the pocket and make plays without being on the run it would realy help out our defense.

Rodgers has been impressive despite the O-Line issues and im kind of anxious to see how good he'd realy be with at least a decent running game and some consistient pass protection.

I guess I just see our O-Line as a much bigger problem right now and bigger reason we are sitting at 2-3 right now than because of our defense.

[xTitan]

Both lines are to blame, that is where games are won and lost. Having said that, the O-line seems to be coming around, thought they played much better this past week with Wells at center and Spitz at guard. I also thought Babre blocked for the run real well, the holding penalty was a killer though....Clifton is a major issue. The defensive line lost its best player last week in Jenkins, he was the best against the run and pass this year....they also need Harrell to come back next week and somehow contribute immediately, even if it is only 15 or so plays to start out, that would be huge.

[El Duderino]

I just feel that if our O-Line could establish the run and protect Rodgers so that he could consistiently stand in the pocket and make plays without being on the run it would realy help out our defense.

Rodgers has been impressive despite the O-Line issues and im kind of anxious to see how good he'd realy be with at least a decent running game and some consistient pass protection.

I guess I just see our O-Line as a much bigger problem right now and bigger reason we are sitting at 2-3 right now than because of our defense.

While both the lack of holes and to much pressure have both hurt, i think all the penalties have been nearly as costly. Some of the penalties on the line have been just back breakers, bringing back big gains, taking points off the boards, and/or putting the offense in 2nd/3rd and very long situations. Just look at Sundays game. That holding call on Babre with us down three turned a 3rd and 3-4 at the 40-45 yard line into 3rd and 20, Rodgers then proceeded to force that pass that got picked and basically put us down 10 points and ended the game. There have been other gut punch penalties on the line that very well could have changed games. Having 15 holding penalties among that group through only 5 games is ridiculous and that doesn't factor in the false starts.

That said, sometimes we can unfairly blame certain players or units. In the Tampa game on our last drive where we were trying to tie the game, Rodgers got drilled in the back by an unblocked rusher off the edge and his pass was picked off. I remember yelling at the TV saying how the hell did Clifton not even attempt to block that rusher. Well, a few days later i saw McCarthy being interviewed and he was asked about that play. He said Rodgers should have recognized pre-snap that the defender on the edge would be unblocked because of the play and line call. McCarthy then said Aaron should have either checked out of the play or changed the protection.

As just normal fans watching on TV, we can at times wrongly assign blame on plays to players when actually, something else happened that lead to a play blowing up. Look at Finley on the field goal holding call. I was calling him multiple swear words. Then i went back and rewatched the play on my DVR, it was a ridiculous call.

[paulpressey25]

What do you mean in the last two years? Jones, Crosby, Bigby, Grant, Williams?

Eight guys from this last draft of his are still around and could end up extremely valuable members of the team someday. But we're not getting a payoff on them now unfortunately.

I think we're somewhat on the same page. When I use the term two years, I'm counting the Harrell pick and some of the other young guys he signed/drafted in 2007 not stepping up like we hoped such as Rouse (yeah, I know he's injured, but he wasn't looking good this year)

And the 2008 draft class he's not getting much of anything from. I know it's early though.

[eagle13]

DL is THE major problem and need. The fact that Harrell & Jenkins were hurt most of last year and KGB had off season surgery (as well as getting older) and Jolly got in trouble (and always close to overweight) - and then TT cheaped out and traded away Williams - it was disappointing in the face of all that - all TT did was draft Thompson. You can say TT could not predict. Well for those that proclaim DL as most important it was negligent at best. To me it was easy to see problems coming and I and others said so since b4 the draft and for sure after the Cory trade. Expecting Montgomery or Hunter to do anything was ridiculos and I said so. They are fine ST guys that have nothing to offer as DL. So of Harrell, KGB, Cullen & Jolly - only Cullen bounced back. So the current situation is no surprise.

OL - 2nd biggest problem and need - we've beat this horse. IF clifton & tausch are REALLY collapsing b4 our eyes OR they can re-emerge will be a huge subplot of the season. IF TT has to replace both OTs and get at least 1 (if not 2) starting caliber DL in coming off season - well as we know - rookies - even 1st rd picks - cannot be counted on to star right away.

RB = ? Who is Grant? I'm guessing he'll be OK. IF not add RB to serious problem.

DB - IF anything serious happens to Woodson this becomes another disaster. IF he stays OK then DB is probably OK. Tramon is looking good thank god. JS article said Blackmon & Lee played wrong often. Lee is a rookie and can develop. Blackmon is a returner and dime at best. Maybe Harris will bounce back 100% but counting on that is like counting on KGB to bounce back this year. I do not expect Harris to be on roster next year.

QB & TE are probably OK as finley & flynn develop as backups.

If no serious injuries LB, WR, K, KR, PR, are OK. Driver may be slipping as well but he'll still make strong contribution.

[ReasonablySober]

We'll obviously never agree on the defensive line, but going into last offseason the Packers had a DT rotation of Jolly, Pickett, Harrell, Cole and Jenkins. They had a DE rotation of Kampman, Jenkins and KGB. Jolly gets arrested on July 8th, Harrell gets injured on Juy 28th, KGB (after a great rebound year) falls off the map in terms of effectiveness, Jenkins gets injured two weeks ago and Jolly isn't the same player he was last season.

Five at DT and three at DE is reason enough to be optimistic. Lose a couple to injury and a couple to sever drops in effectiveness and the defense is going to suffer. Not sure how that's predictable.

Thompson didn't want to give a guy like Corey Williams a big contract, probably out of fear we'd have another Cledius Hunt. Williams, in Cleveland, has been invisible. No sacks thus far.

[eagle13]

We'll obviously never agree on the defensive line, but going into last offseason the Packers had a DT rotation of Jolly, Pickett, Harrell, Cole and Jenkins. They had a DE rotation of Kampman, Jenkins and KGB. Jolly gets arrested on July 8th, Harrell gets injured on Juy 28th, KGB (after a great rebound year) falls off the map in terms of effectiveness, Jenkins gets injured two weeks ago and Jolly isn't the same player he was last season.

Five at DT and three at DE is reason enough to be optimistic. Lose a couple to injury and a couple to sever drops in effectiveness and the defense is going to suffer. Not sure how that's predictable.

Thompson didn't want to give a guy like Corey Williams a big contract, probably out of fear we'd have another Cledius Hunt. Williams, in Cleveland, has been invisible. No sacks thus far.

Um your counting Jenkins twice. Yes he plays 2 positions but is only 1 body.
So 4 & 3. And as you say yourself Cole is just a guy. OK 4th DT.

You ignore KGB offseason injury. Harrell's 2 previous year's of injury. Jenkins injury caused poor play last year. You don't see it. TT did not see it. I & others did. What happened?

As for Cory - different team, different position. But like Dude pointed out we could have signed him for less a year earlier. But its not Williams specifically - its not getting someone else for interior pass rush and counting on Harrrell. Again - You don't see it. TT did not see it. I & others did. What happened?

Your right we probably never agree. That's OK with me. It wouldn't be the same if you weren't wrong most of the time.

[ReasonablySober]

I'm counting the number of players in the rotation. Pickett, Jolly, Harrell, Jenkins and Cole makes five. Just because he only plays DT on long yardage passing situations doesn't discount the fact that he's a member of the rotation at the position.

As for Harrell's injury, he had torn biceps in college and an ankle injury last season. Both are independent of his back injury sustained over the offseason. The prognosis was he would be ready by the start of training camp and unfortunately he wasn't because of a setback. Regardless, the back injury had nothing to do with the previous two seasons.

As for Williams, they began negotiating a deal in the spring of 2007. When the Packers drafted Harrell the talks broke off and they didn't negotiate at all during the season. By the end of the season it was obvious that Williams would get a huge contract and Thompson wasn't about to give him a huge deal with Harrell, Jolly, Pickett and Jenkins in the fold. Why should he? That's all the depth you need.

But when two go down with injuries you see the result on the field.

KGB's surgery was minor (torn meniscus) and was expected to be 100% by training camp. Maybe he is. Either way, his play has tailed off.

The bottom line is there was no reason to believe that we wouldn't have a healthy rotation by the time training camp started.

[El Duderino]

Speaking of the DL, did anyone watch Jeremy Thompson in college?

I ask because i've never watched a single Wake Forest football game, which is where he played. The guy has a great body for a defensive end, but in preseason and in the Atlanta game i thought he has looked flat out terrible. I understand he was only a 4th round pick and is a rookie trying to learn how to play against NFL players. That said, he doesn't seem able to get off a block to save his life. I'm not looking for or expecting a rookie 4th round choice to play great, but man, i've yet to see anything to show he has quality football skills beyond looking the part physically. Everytime i focused on him in preseason or vs Atlanta, as soon as a lineman got his hands on Thompson, he was immediately toast and seemed to have no counter move whatsoever.

So, does anyone know more about J.Thompson and think the kid has better football skills than i've seen and it's just him being a rookie that's causing him to look so bad?

[ReasonablySober]

I knew nothing about him when he was picked.

Read his overview here.

Pick Analysis: Thompson holds Wake Forest's record for an interception return at 86 yards. He is a great prospect at this point in the draft. Thompson ranked much higher than this on many draft boards.

The thing I gather after seeing him play and reading his scouting report is he needs to gain a lot of strength and learn how to disengage from blockers. That's common with just about every 'non-freak' DE that enters the league. I think he was a developmental guy that was picked due to his size and solid athletic ability. Jenkins injury and KGB's suckiness has forced a guy onto the field that probably doesn't belong there yet.