Community Thread VIII

[Chubby Chaser]

IMO what got this whole thing started stemmed from Bush's neo-con "laissez-faire" economic policies. Or lack of policies I should say. His deregulation of the financial sector pretty much led the way to the fannie may and freddie mac fiascos and predatory sub-prime lending. The deregulation in the marketplace is INITIALLY where this whole meltdown stemmed from. Sure after that there were red flags that could of steered the eventual recession off-course. But make no mistake that it was the de regulation of the market that got us into this mess. If you let big corporations act on their own interests with no regulations, that is exactly what they are going to do. Act on their own interests, maximize their profits, without second thought of the negative externalities of their decisions. And that is where we find ourselves today. Paying the price tag for their negative externalities.

[Verbal]

Maybe it's cuz Bush wanted to bang with the wrong ppl.

*cough* (youknowwhat) act *cough*

[hermes]

alright i'm here to defend Bush, watch these two videos and tell me if you think he had anything to do with all the problems we've had

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDzn9uYxMf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vaZGQO2qSY

You go Bush! Keep on keeping on

[Verbal]

Nice location, hermes.

[LLcoleJ]

Part of the problem is Paulson. He is in charge of fixing this thing. Yet, he used to head up Goldman and Sachs, made billions in the sub-prime market and then shorted his position. ( Basically betting against it)

Now he is tasked to fix this thing? Thats like putting an arsonist in charge of the fire dept.

[Erik Eleven]

Good explanations and good points, Sedale and Rasho. I still think there is a great amount of Monkey see, monkey do going on. And I have nothing but hunches to back up my case. The type of facts I can find would probably be deemed conspiracy theory related, so I won't. With time, I'm pretty sure some gnarly truths about the last eight years will surface, though. What they've done could arguably be called treason, and again, I think some high ranking heads will indeed roll in the years to come. I'm talking about long-ass jail sentences for elected officials. Why did Ari Fleischer disappear so suddenly and so quietly, btw?

To belittle the effects of Bush's lack of accountability is dangerous at best, in my opinion. It sets a really bad example for the future if we do. The day no-bid contract profits for Cheney's companies became a reason to go to war, Wall Street and bankers followed their lead. Accountability was thrown out the window and the open market became a free for all. Loot while you still can became the financial world's MO. Why should they care about the greater good for the economy and set aside their own personal short term interests when the White House doesn't? I definitely believe that his administration's lack of fiscal responsibility trickled down. The buck should definitely have stopped with him, but it didn't. He passed it on to Wall Street. Good looking out. Thanks, bud. Let's have a beer.

To not pin most part of the responsibility on his administration is wrong, in my opinion. To put it nicely, they have showcased a lack of foresight, lack of judgment, lack of leadership, lack of responsibility, lack of morals, lack of decency, lack of IQ. A lot of people did see this coming. Some of them were his advisors. There are some very smart people in Washington, and to think that Bush, Cheney & Co didn't at some point look the other way is naive and dangerous, in my opinion. Lord Locksley let his friends go pillaging. He's stupid alright, but he's not deaf. His advisors must have predicted what was going to happen. If they didn't, then he's guilty of picking the wrong (incompetent and/or corrupt) advisors. I think it's ignorant to think that they didn't see this coming. I simply don't think Bush cares. He has his. That's the type of sophistication and character he's showcased from day one.

I can't wait to see Oliver Stone's film. I know he sometimes goes too deep in his conspiracy accusations, but this time around, somebody really needs to do so. In the words of Lee Iacocca, "Where's the outrage?" I haven't read this in a few years, but it needs to be read by as many as possible, and so here it is:

Excerpt

Where Have All the Leaders Gone?
By Lee Iacocca with Catherine Whitney

I Had Enough?

Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, "Stay the course."

Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America, not the damned Titanic. I'll give you a sound bite: Throw the bums out!

You might think I'm getting senile, that I've gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up. I hardly recognize this country anymore. The President of the United States is given a free pass to ignore the Constitution, tap our phones, and lead us to war on a pack of lies. Congress responds to record deficits by passing a huge tax cut for the wealthy (thanks, but I don't need it). The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq, the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving pom-poms instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of America my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?

I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have.

My friends tell me to calm down. They say, "Lee, you're eighty-two years old. Leave the rage to the young people." I'd love to—as soon as I can pry them away from their iPods for five seconds and get them to pay attention. I'm going to speak up because it's my patriotic duty. I think people will listen to me. They say I have a reputation as a straight shooter. So I'll tell you how I see it, and it's not pretty, but at least it's real. I'm hoping to strike a nerve in those young folks who say they don't vote because they don't trust politicians to represent their interests. Hey, America, wake up. These guys work for us.

Who Are These Guys, Anyway?

Why are we in this mess? How did we end up with this crowd in Washington? Well, we voted for them—or at least some of us did. But I'll tell you what we didn't do. We didn't agree to suspend the Constitution. We didn't agree to stop asking questions or demanding answers. Some of us are sick and tired of people who call free speech treason. Where I come from that's a dictatorship, not a democracy.

And don't tell me it's all the fault of right-wing Republicans or liberal Democrats. That's an intellectually lazy argument, and it's part of the reason we're in this stew. We're not just a nation of factions. We're a people. We share common principles and ideals. And we rise and fall together.

Where are the voices of leaders who can inspire us to action and make us stand taller? What happened to the strong and resolute party of Lincoln? What happened to the courageous, populist party of FDR and Truman? There was a time in this country when the voices of great leaders lifted us up and made us want to do better. Where have all the leaders gone?

The Test of a Leader

I've never been Commander in Chief, but I've been a CEO. I understand a few things about leadership at the top. I've figured out nine points—not ten (I don't want people accusing me of thinking I'm Moses). I call them the "Nine Cs of Leadership." They're not fancy or complicated. Just clear, obvious qualities that every true leader should have. We should look at how the current administration stacks up. Like it or not, this crew is going to be around until January 2009. Maybe we can learn something before we go to the polls in 2008. Then let's be sure we use the leadership test to screen the candidates who say they want to run the country. It's up to us to choose wisely.

So, here's my C list:

A leader has to show CURIOSITY. He has to listen to people outside of the "Yes, sir" crowd in his inner circle. He has to read voraciously, because the world is a big, complicated place. George W. Bush brags about never reading a newspaper. "I just scan the headlines," he says. Am I hearing this right? He's the President of the United States and he never reads a newspaper? Thomas Jefferson once said, "Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate for a moment to prefer the latter." Bush disagrees. As long as he gets his daily hour in the gym, with Fox News piped through the sound system, he's ready to go.

If a leader never steps outside his comfort zone to hear different ideas, he grows stale. If he doesn't put his beliefs to the test, how does he know he's right? The inability to listen is a form of arrogance. It means either you think you already know it all, or you just don't care. Before the 2006 election, George Bush made a big point of saying he didn't listen to the polls. Yeah, that's what they all say when the polls stink. But maybe he should have listened, because 70 percent of the people were saying he was on the wrong track. It took a "thumping" on election day to wake him up, but even then you got the feeling he wasn't listening so much as he was calculating how to do a better job of convincing everyone he was right.

A leader has to be CREATIVE, go out on a limb, be willing to try something different. You know, think outside the box. George Bush prides himself on never changing, even as the world around him is spinning out of control. God forbid someone should accuse him of flip-flopping. There's a disturbingly messianic fervor to his certainty. Senator Joe Biden recalled a conversation he had with Bush a few months after our troops marched into Baghdad. Joe was in the Oval Office outlining his concerns to the President—the explosive mix of **** and Sunni, the disbanded Iraqi army, the problems securing the oil fields. "The President was serene," Joe recalled. "He told me he was sure that we were on the right course and that all would be well. 'Mr. President,' I finally said, 'how can you be so sure when you don't yet know all the facts?'" Bush then reached over and put a steadying hand on Joe's shoulder. "My instincts," he said. "My instincts." Joe was flabbergasted. He told Bush, "Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough." Joe Biden sure didn't think the matter was settled. And, as we all know now, it wasn't.

Leadership is all about managing change—whether you're leading a company or leading a country. Things change, and you get creative. You adapt. Maybe Bush was absent the day they covered that at Harvard Business School.

A leader has to COMMUNICATE. I'm not talking about running off at the mouth or spouting sound bites. I'm talking about facing reality and telling the truth. Nobody in the current administration seems to know how to talk straight anymore. Instead, they spend most of their time trying to convince us that things are not really as bad as they seem. I don't know if it's denial or dishonesty, but it can start to drive you crazy after a while. Communication has to start with telling the truth, even when it's painful. The war in Iraq has been, among other things, a grand failure of communication. Bush is like the boy who didn't cry wolf when the wolf was at the door. After years of being told that all is well, even as the casualties and chaos mount, we've stopped listening to him.

A leader has to be a person of CHARACTER. That means knowing the difference between right and wrong and having the guts to do the right thing. Abraham Lincoln once said, "If you want to test a man's character, give him power." George Bush has a lot of power. What does it say about his character? Bush has shown a willingness to take bold action on the world stage because he has the power, but he shows little regard for the grievous consequences. He has sent our troops (not to mention hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens) to their deaths—for what? To build our oil reserves? To avenge his daddy because Saddam Hussein once tried to have him killed? To show his daddy he's tougher? The motivations behind the war in Iraq are questionable, and the execution of the war has been a disaster. A man of character does not ask a single soldier to die for a failed policy.

A leader must have COURAGE. I'm talking about balls. (That even goes for female leaders.) Swagger isn't courage. Tough talk isn't courage. George Bush comes from a blue-blooded Connecticut family, but he likes to talk like a cowboy. You know, My gun is bigger than your gun. Courage in the twenty-first century doesn't mean posturing and bravado. Courage is a commitment to sit down at the negotiating table and talk.

If you're a politician, courage means taking a position even when you know it will cost you votes. Bush can't even make a public appearance unless the audience has been handpicked and sanitized. He did a series of so-called town hall meetings last year, in auditoriums packed with his most devoted fans. The questions were all softballs.

To be a leader you've got to have CONVICTION—a fire in your belly. You've got to have passion. You've got to really want to get something done. How do you measure fire in the belly? Bush has set the all-time record for number of vacation days taken by a U.S. President—four hundred and counting. He'd rather clear brush on his ranch than immerse himself in the business of governing. He even told an interviewer that the high point of his presidency so far was catching a seven-and-a-half-pound perch in his hand-stocked lake.

It's no better on Capitol Hill. Congress was in session only ninety-seven days in 2006. That's eleven days less than the record set in 1948, when President Harry Truman coined the term do-nothing Congress. Most people would expect to be fired if they worked so little and had nothing to show for it. But Congress managed to find the time to vote itself a raise. Now, that's not leadership.

A leader should have CHARISMA. I'm not talking about being flashy. Charisma is the quality that makes people want to follow you. It's the ability to inspire. People follow a leader because they trust him. That's my definition of charisma. Maybe George Bush is a great guy to hang out with at a barbecue or a ball game. But put him at a global summit where the future of our planet is at stake, and he doesn't look very presidential. Those frat-boy pranks and the kidding around he enjoys so much don't go over that well with world leaders. Just ask German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who received an unwelcome shoulder massage from our President at a G-8 Summit. When he came up behind her and started squeezing, I thought she was going to go right through the roof.

A leader has to be COMPETENT. That seems obvious, doesn't it? You've got to know what you're doing. More important than that, you've got to surround yourself with people who know what they're doing. Bush brags about being our first MBA President. Does that make him competent? Well, let's see. Thanks to our first MBA President, we've got the largest deficit in history, Social Security is on life support, and we've run up a half-a-trillion-dollar price tag (so far) in Iraq. And that's just for starters. A leader has to be a problem solver, and the biggest problems we face as a nation seem to be on the back burner.

You can't be a leader if you don't have COMMON SENSE. I call this Charlie Beacham's rule. When I was a young guy just starting out in the car business, one of my first jobs was as Ford's zone manager in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. My boss was a guy named Charlie Beacham, who was the East Coast regional manager. Charlie was a big Southerner, with a warm drawl, a huge smile, and a core of steel. Charlie used to tell me, "Remember, Lee, the only thing you've got going for you as a human being is your ability to reason and your common sense. If you don't know a dip of **** from a dip of vanilla ice cream, you'll never make it." George Bush doesn't have common sense. He just has a lot of sound bites. You know—Mr.they'll-welcome-us-as-liberators-no-child-left-behind-heck-of-a-job-Brownie-mission-accomplished Bush.

Former President Bill Clinton once said, "I grew up in an alcoholic home. I spent half my childhood trying to get into the reality-based world—and I like it here."

I think our current President should visit the real world once in a while.

The Biggest C is Crisis

Leaders are made, not born. Leadership is forged in times of crisis. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory. Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down.

On September 11, 2001, we needed a strong leader more than any other time in our history. We needed a steady hand to guide us out of the ashes. Where was George Bush? He was reading a story about a pet goat to kids in Florida when he heard about the attacks. He kept sitting there for twenty minutes with a baffled look on his face. It's all on tape. You can see it for yourself. Then, instead of taking the quickest route back to Washington and immediately going on the air to reassure the panicked people of this country, he decided it wasn't safe to return to the White House. He basically went into hiding for the day—and he told Vice President Dick Cheney to stay put in his bunker. We were all frozen in front of our TVs, scared out of our wits, waiting for our leaders to tell us that we were going to be okay, and there was nobody home. It took Bush a couple of days to get his bearings and devise the right photo op at Ground Zero.

That was George Bush's moment of truth, and he was paralyzed. And what did he do when he'd regained his composure? He led us down the road to Iraq—a road his own father had considered disastrous when he was President. But Bush didn't listen to Daddy. He listened to a higher father. He prides himself on being faith based, not reality based. If that doesn't scare the crap out of you, I don't know what will.

A Hell of a Mess

So here's where we stand. We're immersed in a bloody war with no plan for winning and no plan for leaving. We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country. We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia, while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs. Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy. Our schools are in trouble. Our borders are like sieves. The middle class is being squeezed every which way. These are times that cry out for leadership.

But when you look around, you've got to ask: "Where have all the leaders gone?" Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, competence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.

Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo? We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened.

Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina. Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm. Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again. Now, that's just crazy. Storms happen. Deal with it. Make a plan. Figure out what you're going to do the next time.

Name me an industry leader who is thinking creatively about how we can restore our competitive edge in manufacturing. Who would have believed that there could ever be a time when "the Big Three" referred to Japanese car companies? How did this happen—and more important, what are we going to do about it?

Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debt, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

I have news for the gang in Congress. We didn't elect you to sit on your asses and do nothing and remain silent while our democracy is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity. What is everybody so afraid of? That some bobblehead on Fox News will call them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show some spine for a change?

Had Enough?

Hey, I'm not trying to be the voice of gloom and doom here. I'm trying to light a fire. I'm speaking out because I have hope. I believe in America. In my lifetime I've had the privilege of living through some of America's greatest moments. I've also experienced some of our worst crises—the Great Depression, World War II, the Korean War, the Kennedy assassination, the Vietnam War, the 1970s oil crisis, and the struggles of recent years culminating with 9/11. If I've learned one thing, it's this: You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. Whether it's building a better car or building a better future for our children, we all have a role to play. That's the challenge I'm raising in this book. It's a call to action for people who, like me, believe in America. It's not too late, but it's getting pretty close. So let's shake off the **** and go to work. Let's tell 'em all we've had enough.

This guy isn't exactly your stereotypical conspiracy theorist, nor is he a tree hugging socialist. He used to run the motorcorp Ford, if I remember correctly. This was read by people on Wall Street, people in Washington, people in the media — then ignored. People just chose to conveniently look the other way. I didn't do anything with my outrage because the overall feeling of our opinions not mattering seemed like such an overwhelming obstacle to get past. Why waste my energy? But then again, it shouldn't be up to us, it should be up to the president to lead and react courageously to great threats to his people's livelihood. They knew. They just didn't do anything for us, only for themselves. I'd go so far as to possibly calling that treason. Time will tell. Truths will surface, and they will be very ugly.

I always take this type of stuff with a grain of salt, but this is an interesting read if you haven't read it. This has been confirmed and known about for a long time by people in position of power. Ignoring it would be just as ignorant as buying into it without questioning it.

This land sits on top of a huge underground water reserve and is heavily guarded. Why would someone with a clean slate plan something like that? I thought he loved this country and wanted to stay in Crawford, Texas.

[Erik Eleven]

Question:

How many photo voltaic sensors could we install in Artizona for $700B? For how many college graduate engineers could we create jobs, for a let's say $85B + $38.7B (AIG)? Let alone the monthly bill for invading Iraq. Going into it, we had the biggest surplus in the history of this country.

[Sedale Threatt]

I have never, ever said that the Bush administration doesn't bear responsibility for this crisis we are facing. Ultimately, he is the leader of the country, and this is happening on his watch.

But again, I think it's both short-sighted and even a little lazy to point the finger primarily at him. Considering he's about to wind down one of the worst presidencies in U.S. history, he makes a convenient scapegoat. Ultimately, what I blame him the most for is running up our national debt and getting us involved in a foolish war that has ruined our reputation and sapped our resources. But there are simply too many culprits in this debacle to make Bush the No. 1 fall guy. A catastrophe of this magnitude can't be saddled on one person. It's far too complex and wide-reaching.

Case in point is that video I posted, where Dem after Dem after Dem not only denies any need for reform at Freddie and Fannie, they react with outright hostility at the mere suggestion. Of anything I have read and seen, nothing has pissed me off more than that clip. If you need a textbook example of the lack of leadership and foresight in Washington, there it is.

But even then, it's absolutely crucial to digest the list Rasho posted, and recognize the fact that there and many, many people, in and out of office, from Bush on down to the idiot making 50 grand a year but decided that he could afford a $500,000 home, who contributed to the catastrophe we find ourselves in. As Iacocca said in the essay you just posted: "And don't tell me it's all the fault of right-wing Republicans or liberal Democrats. That's an intellectually lazy argument, and it's part of the reason we're in this stew."

[Sedale Threatt]

For $700 billion, we probably could have reformed U.S. medical care, rebuilt our road and bridge system, pumped a huge chunk into education and probably still had money left over to jump-start our long road to energy independence. What a tragedy. (But at least those AIG execs got to take their spa retreat. That's the important thing.)

This, to me, will be Bush's ultimate legacy -- he ran our country into the ground financially, not necessarily in terms of the current crisis, but by digging our country such a massive deficit that we might never get out. That's the sad thing. Even before this catastrophe, we were STILL going to be broke as a freaking joke.

[Erik Eleven]

It's never just black or white like that. My bad if I'm suggesting that. I'm just saying that the effects of his incompetence are far greater than what he's currently held responsible for. We're basically in agreement. I just can't stress enough how much I think he is to blame. That's my main point. I don't think enough fingers are pointed at him. He's getting off way too easy in the media right now. We're talking about risking the safety of the entire world.

When he first got elected in 1999, I said, "He's going to run this country into the ground. Watch him attack Iraq for no good reason, to finish off what his daddy couldn't. The Saudis will love this". If I still had the phone number to the flavor of the week at the time, she'd tell you. The point being, if I could see it coming, people in power could. His administration looked the other way.

Speaking of Ari Fleischer, he just made a TV appearance speaking of how quickly the stock markets of the world react as soon as the US president catches a cold.

I agree that it's wrong to pin it solely on him or on the GOP. They're all full of sh•t. As I said earlier in this thread — it's a pre-requisite for anyone to become a politician. But Bush should be held accountable for his actions, or lack thereof. His presidency has undoubtedly been a pivotal ingredient in the development of this crisis. I want to hold him accountable in a big way, so that it doesn't happen anytime soon again. That's all.

[Erik Eleven]

I watched the videos, I read the posts. It's still his job to be the courageous contrarian and go against the powers at hand, when needed. His presidency is a failure of catastrophic proportions.

This situation we're in could have been partially avoided if he did what he was elected to do — watching out for the American people. Therein lies the root of lots of evil. More so than we think.

[Sedale Threatt]

Well, I hate to be the cynic, because that's another big reason why we're here. But if the guy could start an illegal war and remain in office, I highly doubt he's going to be held accountable in any meaningful way.

I do take solace in the fact that he appears to be keenly aware of his place in history, as is Cheney. For the past year or so, he's apparently been inviting historians, academics and intellectuals to the Oval Office to discuss his tenure and get an early handle on how he'll be judged for posterity. (I can't find the link to the story I read in the Washington Post).

At the very least, if no official reprimand or punishment is coming, he'll have to live with the real possibility that he'll be remembered as one of the worst leaders we've ever had.

As for assessing things right now, I think most people are just trying to get their arms around what will go down as one of the major historical events of the century. It's going to take months, if not years, to really shake everything out.

If people are truly pissed, the best thing they can do in the short run is take a close look at their congressional leaders and vote accordingly. I would absolutely KILL to live in Massachusetts for the opportunity to vote Barney Frank out of office (among many others).

[Blame Rasho]

That list should be required reading for anybody who wants to point the finger at one particular person or party. It's going to take years for the dust to settle before this thing will be fully sorted out. If there's anyone left to do it.

Thanks for posting that, BTW. That's one of the best explanation I've read yet.

Factcheck.org is an unbelievably great website to check out who is bullshitting us.

[Slava]

Well, as bad as it is that all the AIG execs got to spend the bail out money on a vacation, I read somewhere that AIG was going to request $ 84 billion more from the congress to patch up its operations.

[Erik Eleven]

Just for the record, I don't think his head will ever roll either. Of course not.

[blix]

sup guys....out.

[Erik Eleven]

blix!

Good to see you around. It's been a while.

[Danny Darko]

To me the main culprit, the scariest institution, and the group that really is the illuminati is: The Fr3d R3s3rve

If you guys research them, you'll find out:
A- they are not federal. The name is an outright lie. It's a private org that does not care about our best interests.
B- they just robbed our bank accounts with all this nonsense. Creating that kind of new money in the system is just like stealing from us because it makes each dollar worth less.
C- they are surprisingly cloaked in mystery.

Basically, you don't need to be a conspiracy theorists to be paranoid of the Fed.

[Blame Rasho]

To me the main culprit, the scariest institution, and the group that really is the illuminati is: The Fr3d R3s3rve

If you guys research them, you'll find out:
A- they are not federal. The name is an outright lie. It's a private org that does not care about our best interests.
B- they just robbed our bank accounts with all this nonsense. Creating that kind of new money in the system is just like stealing from us because it makes each dollar worth less.
C- they are surprisingly cloaked in mystery.

Basically, you don't need to be a conspiracy theorists to be paranoid of the Fed.

Honestly.... as a guy who has taken several finance classes... LOL...

[Rox_Nix_Nox]