Pre-Season: Portland @ Sacramento

[element_88]

The fact you won't find anything better doesn't justify bringing him, it's the question whether he brings improvements necessary, I didn't see it last season, Kenny Thomas might suck but but so does Mikki Moore and the upgrade isn't all that big, he could've been replaced with KT, and extra minutes for Hawes and other fillers that came along (Sheldon and Justin Williams).
And what void exactly does Moore fill? catching half of the passes thrown at him for mid range jumpers and dunks while providing little defense and no rebounding? a lot of guys can do that, hell, Hawes could do that last year.
If he was brought for what he's worth, fine, but no, he was brought for a lot more.

He was brought in to be a decent stop gap. I'm not sure what you were expecting out of him.

And no, Spencer could not have filled Mikki's role at all last year because Spencer is no where near the finisher that Mikki is. Mikki's hands are a legitimate criticism, but when he does catch it within a couple feet of the basket, he dunks it. When Spencer catches it, he ends up hurrying himself into an off balance hook shot from 10 feet out.

Mikki didn't suddenly become a worse rebounder and defender when he got here, he was the same as he always was. And like I said, he's not even a bad defender. Sure he'll struggle against the strength of centers but he ranges from below-average-pretty damn good against PFs, depending on the matchup IMO.

The one thing I can see people complaining about are his hands. That's legitimate because he would have been more useful last year if that hadn't been a problem. But that's hardly any reason to call the signing a disaster.

And yes, Kenny would have been much worse last year. Mikki was a low level starter, but he wasn't completely out of place as a starter. He just wasn't that bad. Kenny was downright horrid last year when he played.

wud kenny have that worse? or wud he have showed up knowing the starting spot was his? i mean the only consistent minutes he got where in the beginning of the season when SAR was trying to play and there was a chance he might get back, nd even then he wasnt getting enough minutes

[SacKingZZZ]

Kenny didn't have a good year but history shows that he is still probably the best PF we have on the team. Mikki fits because he stays out of the way. He doesn't make too many mistakes, mainly because he's never put in a position to make them. Mikki is a very good defender.

[pillwenney]

The fact you won't find anything better doesn't justify bringing him, it's the question whether he brings improvements necessary, I didn't see it last season, Kenny Thomas might suck but but so does Mikki Moore and the upgrade isn't all that big, he could've been replaced with KT, and extra minutes for Hawes and other fillers that came along (Sheldon and Justin Williams).
And what void exactly does Moore fill? catching half of the passes thrown at him for mid range jumpers and dunks while providing little defense and no rebounding? a lot of guys can do that, hell, Hawes could do that last year.
If he was brought for what he's worth, fine, but no, he was brought for a lot more.

He was brought in to be a decent stop gap. I'm not sure what you were expecting out of him.

And no, Spencer could not have filled Mikki's role at all last year because Spencer is no where near the finisher that Mikki is. Mikki's hands are a legitimate criticism, but when he does catch it within a couple feet of the basket, he dunks it. When Spencer catches it, he ends up hurrying himself into an off balance hook shot from 10 feet out.

Mikki didn't suddenly become a worse rebounder and defender when he got here, he was the same as he always was. And like I said, he's not even a bad defender. Sure he'll struggle against the strength of centers but he ranges from below-average-pretty damn good against PFs, depending on the matchup IMO.

The one thing I can see people complaining about are his hands. That's legitimate because he would have been more useful last year if that hadn't been a problem. But that's hardly any reason to call the signing a disaster.

And yes, Kenny would have been much worse last year. Mikki was a low level starter, but he wasn't completely out of place as a starter. He just wasn't that bad. Kenny was downright horrid last year when he played.

wud kenny have that worse? or wud he have showed up knowing the starting spot was his? i mean the only consistent minutes he got where in the beginning of the season when SAR was trying to play and there was a chance he might get back, nd even then he wasnt getting enough minutes

Kenny only got minutes during the beginning of the season because he was absolutely horrible in the beginning of the season. I mean horrible. Really, really horrible.

Kenny didn't have a good year but history shows that he is still probably the best PF we have on the team. Mikki fits because he stays out of the way. He doesn't make too many mistakes, mainly because he's never put in a position to make them. Mikki is a very good defender.

No he's not. He's not as bad as some on here are saying, but he's not "very good" unless it's the absolutely perfect matchup.

[SacKingZZZ]

No he's not. He's not as bad as some on here are saying, but he's not "very good" unless it's the absolutely perfect matchup.

I'd say he's very good in relation to others that have been called the same. I guess it depends on the individuals definition of "good". He matches up well against players like Dirk and can surprise others with his strength. Very underrated defender. He also helps out a lot with his willingness to take charges and his length. The problem is that he is the ultimate "role player" type on a team that desperately needs much more than a non-rebounding role player.

[pillwenney]

No he's not. He's not as bad as some on here are saying, but he's not "very good" unless it's the absolutely perfect matchup.

I'd say he's very good in relation to others that have been called the same. I guess it depends on the individuals definition of "good". He matches up well against players like Dirk and can surprise others with his strength. Very underrated defender. He also helps out a lot with his willingness to take charges and his length. The problem is that he is the ultimate "role player" type on a team that desperately needs much more than a non-rebounding role player.

Not really. He does well against perimeter-oriented PFs but as soon as he's against someone that plays with power, he's screwed. Over all he's maybe an above average defender--but only if you don't count defensive rebounding as defense.

[_SRV_]

Is it your money? No. Did it affect our ability to make any important moves in free agency? No. So where is this "terrible mistake"?

Don't be a moron, money affects everything in this league.

Also, it's probably going to be closer to 14mil considering that I doubt we keep him around right now. And he's not irrelevant. He was very relevant for us last year and may continue to be on the court this year. And he'll always been a good locker room vet.

Jee, that makes it OK now

I personally don't think we need him any more, but a "terrible mistake" would be if we couldn't trade him. We can easily trade him right now. A "terrible mistake" is only terrible if it has some kind of lasting negative affect on the team. The Moore signing will have no such affect. At all.

Is it random statements and definitions that and nobody told me? Or is it talking out of your ass day?

[pillwenney]

Don't be a moron, money affects everything in this league.

First off, watch how you talk to people. I'm not going to give you a formal warning for this, but I probably should.


Secondly, you can't just say that something "affects everything" without giving any kind of specifics with respect to circumstance. How? How precisely is it affecting us here? Is there any piece for our team's future that we won't be able to acquire or hold on to because we have signed Mikki Moore?

Jee, that makes it OK now

Yeah, because that was totally my main point, and not just a passing correction of a mistake you made.

Is it random statements and definitions that and nobody told me? Or is it talking out of your ass day?

How would you define "terrible"? If signing Mikki was a mistake at all (which I don't think it was), I'd say calling it a "terrible" one is blowing it way the hell out of proportion. It's not semantics, it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. The blazers picking Bowie over Jordan was a terrible mistake. The Knicks S&Ting for Eddy Curry was a terrible mistake. The Hawks taking Marvin Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams is a terrible mistake. Signing a stopgap journeyman to a 2.5 year contract that will likely have zero affect on who this team can acquire for their future core is not a terrible mistake, because it's barely even a mistake.

So, the way I see it, you can either start responding to what I say with arguments, or you can keep responding condescending, snarky comments that contribute nothing to the thread--although I wouldn't recommend option B. Your choice.

[_SRV_]

First off, watch how you talk to people. I'm not going to give you a formal warning for this, but I probably should.
So, the way I see it, you can either start responding to what I say with arguments, or you can keep responding condescending, snarky comments that contribute nothing to the thread--although I wouldn't recommend option B. Your choice.

This goes both ways with your is it your money comment, I'm sorry, but I tend to react in a condescending way to immature comments, you can cut the crap and crap won't be be flying your way.
And please don't threaten me, I welcome any of your policing action if you see necessary.

How would you define "terrible"? If signing Mikki was a mistake at all (which I don't think it was), I'd say calling it a "terrible" one is blowing it way the hell out of proportion. It's not semantics, it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. The blazers picking Bowie over Jordan was a terrible mistake. The Knicks S&Ting for Eddy Curry was a terrible mistake. The Hawks taking Marvin Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams is a terrible mistake. Signing a stopgap journeyman to a 2.5 year contract that will likely have zero affect on who this team can acquire for their future core is not a terrible mistake, because it's barely even a mistake.

I define terrible as spending 18 or 14 million dollars on a 4th PF that doesn't bring anything to the team, Mikki Moore isn't a good or even bad starting PF, he was 3rd stringer and marginal player all his career except one magical year next to Jason Kidd, we had average PFs, and we didn't need anymore of those, even if Mikki Moore brings something extra to the table it is so negligible that I don't see any justification for it.
That is a terrible mistake to me.
And about your semantics, yes there are levels of mistake, you can blow a late 1sr round pick, you can sign the wrong vet min guy, if these are mistakes, then how do you call signing a big contract like Moore, I mean if we're going to call historical mistake like Bowie a terrible mistake and set the bar there, there is barely a reason to negatively comment on any GM operation.
And if you say it didn't affect the team's ability to operate, quite frankly you're burying your head in the sand, in the Houston deal, we had to send away our 2 second round picks who were signed for pittance in order to avoid LT, if trade comes along (or came along and we don't know of) we have very small room to operate under LT threshold because of the dead weight we're carrying.
Bottom line, Mikki Moore isn't much better player than KT, KT actually has things that KT doesn't have, and we had the fillers and rookie to fill the void, that was a mistake.

[_SRV_]

Kenny didn't have a good year but history shows that he is still probably the best PF we have on the team. Mikki fits because he stays out of the way. He doesn't make too many mistakes, mainly because he's never put in a position to make them. Mikki is a very good defender.

Bottom line about what was done is, we judged a player based on a very bad year, in a down year for all of the team, under a failing coach, and replaced him with a career journey man, in his 30s after a career year next to Jason Kidd, and the results weren't surprising.
KT isn't a good player, and I wish he was off this team, but reality dictates that he's practically immovable, was the Mikki Moore signing all that necessary given these circumstances?

[pillwenney]

I define terrible as spending 18 or 14 million dollars on a 4th PF that doesn't bring anything to the team, Mikki Moore isn't a good or even bad starting PF, he was 3rd stringer and marginal player all his career except one magical year next to Jason Kidd, we had average PFs, and we didn't need anymore of those, even if Mikki Moore brings something extra to the table it is so negligible that I don't see any justification for it.
That is a terrible mistake to me.
And about your semantics, yes there are levels of mistake, you can blow a late 1sr round pick, you can sign the wrong vet min guy, if these are mistakes, then how do you call signing a big contract like Moore, I mean if we're going to call historical mistake like Bowie a terrible mistake and set the bar there, there is barely a reason to negatively comment on any GM operation.
And if you say it didn't affect the team's ability to operate, quite frankly you're burying your head in the sand, in the Houston deal, we had to send away our 2 second round picks who were signed for pittance in order to avoid LT, if trade comes along (or came along and we don't know of) we have very small room to operate under LT threshold because of the dead weight we're carrying.
Bottom line, Mikki Moore isn't much better player than KT, KT actually has things that KT doesn't have, and we had the fillers and rookie to fill the void, that was a mistake.

No Bowie is specifically a terrible mistake. You can still criticize a GM's moves, but considering that you can't find many adjectives that are more harshly descriptive than "terrible", to me, that puts that kind of mistake in it's own class. Calling it "terrible" implies that really damages the franchise. You can criticize the signing, but calling it "terrible" is again, making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I was never under the impression that we added our 2nd rounders into the deal for salary reasons. If we were to do that, I would think we would add someone in that had a guaranteed salary, like Douby perhaps. I was under the impression that it was at least partially about roster space--since Ron for Bobby/Donte gave us a full roster (before we knew SAR would retire) which would prevent either of them from being able to make the team. But regardless, if Singletary and Ewing become real players in this league the otherwise that could have helped this team, fine, I'll give you that one.

Your argument about the luxury tax is your most legitimate argument IMO. And if that becomes an issue, all right, that's kind of annoying. But if you want to look at a contract that is really dead weight there, who we didn't have to sign, I would look at the one who is getting paid $6.2million this year to be our big man coach.

I'd say that at this point in his career, Kenny is basically Ben Wallace (at his current age) without the shotblocking. Decent passer and rebounder, not a horrible post defender, but outside of his passing, he's downright awful offensively. He got the chance to start last year at the very beginning and he got a chance to play in general throughout most of the first games (until Spencer got back) and he was dreadful. Mikki is nothing special, but he's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He would be a fine kind of helper big to a Duncan or Howard. But if you substitute Kenny for Mikki last year, I don't know if we win 30 games.

[SacKingZZZ]

No there is no doubt about it, signing Mikki Moore was a pretty dumb move, good guy and a pretty good player IMO, but he doesn't fit into our plans even in the shortest of terms. The only way this move makes sense is if we turn him into something we can use. Otherwise he falls off the cap next year and we send him on his merry way and say "thanks for the "And 1!" big guy."

All I can think is that Petrie was still in his cacoon, thinking this team was going somewhere and Mikki was a good addition to the parts we had. Fact is he was. Like I said, he stays out of the way and hustles so he's a much better fit than Kenny for our roster then. Production wise he is so far from what we need it's laughable. He could be a solid final piece next to a dominant C or PF, we clearly weren't and aren't there yet.

For the team now I think Kenny is a better fit. We need rebounding more than ever because we are trying to run and gun and aren't at the W's or Suns level at it. Great run and gun teams can get away with being pounded on the boards, we can't.

With that said, Thompson, Hawes, Shelden, and Donte should be getting the bulk of the minutes. That's what rebuilding teams do for craps sake. If they don't do it this year it's a good chunk of learning time wasted. But, that's nothing new.

[_SRV_]

No Bowie is specifically a terrible mistake. You can still criticize a GM's moves, but considering that you can't find many adjectives that are more harshly descriptive than "terrible", to me, that puts that kind of mistake in it's own class. Calling it "terrible" implies that really damages the franchise. You can criticize the signing, but calling it "terrible" is again, making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Like I said, the opposite of your argument are mistakes such as late draft picks and wrong small contracts, I don't imply it ruining a franchise because I think we are all grown ups and well aware of the state of the franchise to not take it in this dramatic, that's just an interpretation you're insisting on attaching for reason not obvious to me, it's a big contract that shouldn't have been given in the first place.
If the word is that bothers you you can use horrid for the Eddy Curry kind of mistakes and disastrous for the Bowie kind of mistake, vocabulary isn't really the point here.

I was never under the impression that we added our 2nd rounders into the deal for salary reasons. If we were to do that, I would think we would add someone in that had a guaranteed salary, like Douby perhaps. I was under the impression that it was at least partially about roster space--since Ron for Bobby/Donte gave us a full roster (before we knew SAR would retire) which would prevent either of them from being able to make the team. But regardless, if Singletary and Ewing become real players in this league the otherwise that could have helped this team, fine, I'll give you that one.

No, I remember vividly the article that reported the deal in the second or 3rd day of the news coming out saying the 2 would be sent for LT reasons, I didn't really care for Ewing, but I did like Singletary, big part of it is what you say, waiving a partially guaranteed contract when you know the spot isn't going to be available.

Your argument about the luxury tax is your most legitimate argument IMO. And if that becomes an issue, all right, that's kind of annoying. But if you want to look at a contract that is really dead weight there, who we didn't have to sign, I would look at the one who is getting paid $6.2million this year to be our big man coach.

In hindsight SAR was a mistake, but only in hindsight, SAR was a star signed for the MLE on a team having only one PF (KT at that time), he was supposed to be a big upgrade over '05 KT (who was a good player), Moore is a journey man signed for the same yearly size of contract, and I'll take '05 KT over Moore anytime.
Moore raised a lot of eye brows when signed, and I'm still puzzled as to why he was signed, I still don't see any reason for the signing .

I'd say that at this point in his career, Kenny is basically Ben Wallace (at his current age) without the shotblocking. Decent passer and rebounder, not a horrible post defender, but outside of his passing, he's downright awful offensively. He got the chance to start last year at the very beginning and he got a chance to play in general throughout most of the first games (until Spencer got back) and he was dreadful. Mikki is nothing special, but he's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He would be a fine kind of helper big to a Duncan or Howard. But if you substitute Kenny for Mikki last year, I don't know if we win 30 games.

Mikki also was terrible when he started here, I remember a lot of criticism toward him, but he picked it up later, he was still given the chance because he was a new signee.
I won't defend KT, I already said I wish we didn't have him, but we do, and KT's normal self is a much better player than Moore, and we know he spouted about being benched, in '07 (his bad year and bad year for all the team), he had 11.2 PER as a PF, Moore had 13.6 PER last year, not a big jump, and that's even not considering the better situation last year, I don't really remeber because I didn't follow the situation closely, but I don't think KT was given enough chances last year and he couldn't have been when Moore needed to get his 25 minutes, and we ran small lineups with Artest as a PF.
If we buried KT for a decent upgrade or to play the young players, I wouldn't mind but no, we overpaid a similar player just for the hell of it, and that's where my beef is.

[pillwenney]

Like I said, the opposite of your argument are mistakes such as late draft picks and wrong small contracts, I don't imply it ruining a franchise because I think we are all grown ups and well aware of the state of the franchise to not take it in this dramatic, that's just an interpretation you're insisting on attaching for reason not obvious to me, it's a big contract that shouldn't have been given in the first place.
If the word is that bothers you you can use horrid for the Eddy Curry kind of mistakes and disastrous for the Bowie kind of mistake, vocabulary isn't really the point here.

If it were actually a big contract, I would agree with your terminology. It's not a big contract though. It's a MLE deal--which is overpaying for Mikki, but it's 2.5 years, and it is completely movable. If we had signed him to a deal that we couldn't trade, it most certainly would be a terrible mistake. But that's not the case here.

No, I remember vividly the article that reported the deal in the second or 3rd day of the news coming out saying the 2 would be sent for LT reasons, I didn't really care for Ewing, but I did like Singletary, big part of it is what you say, waiving a partially guaranteed contract when you know the spot isn't going to be available.

That just doesn't really make much sense to me. The luxury tax this year is at $71.15million, so we wouldn't have been able to keep both if we wanted to stay under it, I think, but we could have kept one and waived the other (if we had a roster spot available). The thing I'm not clear about is how much guaranteed money 2nd rounders get, if any at all. But if they do get some, then it made sense to save some money since they weren't going to be able to make the roster anyway.

In hindsight SAR was a mistake, but only in hindsight, SAR was a star signed for the MLE on a team having only one PF (KT at that time), he was supposed to be a big upgrade over '05 KT (who was a good player), Moore is a journey man signed for the same yearly size of contract, and I'll take '05 KT over Moore anytime.
Moore raised a lot of eye brows when signed, and I'm still puzzled as to why he was signed, I still don't see any reason for the signing .

I said at the time of the SAR signing that I didn't think it was a great idea. I thought it would be good for us for a while, but I was worried about how his health would be like 3 years down the line--unfortunately I was right to worry. There were always concerns about his knees from the beginning, and now we're about to on our second straight year of paying him over 6mil to not play for us. I also think that we probably wouldn't have signed Mikki last year had we not known that SAR was going to have major health problems.

Mikki also was terrible when he started here, I remember a lot of criticism toward him, but he picked it up later, he was still given the chance because he was a new signee.
I won't defend KT, I already said I wish we didn't have him, but we do, and KT's normal self is a much better player than Moore, and we know he spouted about being benched, in '07 (his bad year and bad year for all the team), he had 11.2 PER as a PF, Moore had 13.6 PER last year, not a big jump, and that's even not considering the better situation last year, I don't really remeber because I didn't follow the situation closely, but I don't think KT was given enough chances last year and he couldn't have been when Moore needed to get his 25 minutes, and we ran small lineups with Artest as a PF.
If we buried KT for a decent upgrade or to play the young players, I wouldn't mind but no, we overpaid a similar player just for the hell of it, and that's where my beef is.

If by "KT's normal self" you mean the player he used to be, then I agree with you. But he's nowhere near the average starter-caliber player he used to be. He used to have a great mid-range jumper--no longer. He used to be able to make layups--last year, when he tried to make layups, it looked more like he was trying to see how hard he could bounce the ball off the backboard. He had his chances, and he was absolutely dreadful. It hurt the team to keep him in the game. Reggie knew we needed rebounding and he knew that that was Kenny's strongest area, and he still didn't play him because he was just that bad.

[_SRV_]

The article I'm talking about:
http://www.sacbee.com/351/story/1119412.html

A second source close to the Kings said second-round draft picks Sean Singletary and Patrick Ewing Jr. could be sent to Houston as a means to keep the Kings under the luxury tax threshold ($71 million). Both players have partially guaranteed contracts that aren't fully guaranteed until the regular season begins. That element of the deal, however, could be handled with different pieces as well.

I said at the time of the SAR signing that I didn't think it was a great idea. I thought it would be good for us for a while, but I was worried about how his health would be like 3 years down the line--unfortunately I was right to worry. There were always concerns about his knees from the beginning, and now we're about to on our second straight year of paying him over 6mil to not play for us. I also think that we probably wouldn't have signed Mikki last year had we not known that SAR was going to have major health problems.

Every player's health is a concern, but he wasn't injury prone player, and was checked probably by the medical staff, I had concerns about the fit, but that's not the point, SAR was something like 18/9 player, that's a totally different class than Moore.

If by "KT's normal self" you mean the player he used to be, then I agree with you. But he's nowhere near the average starter-caliber player he used to be. He used to have a great mid-range jumper--no longer. He used to be able to make layups--last year, when he tried to make layups, it looked more like he was trying to see how hard he could bounce the ball off the backboard. He had his chances, and he was absolutely dreadful. It hurt the team to keep him in the game. Reggie knew we needed rebounding and he knew that that was Kenny's strongest area, and he still didn't play him because he was just that bad.

I don't think he would've gone back to his '05 form, but I think he would be better than what he showed last year.
Taking his play last year isn't a valid argument to me, he didn't like being replaced by SAR, how would he feel about Moore? And again, I'm not saying we should've considered his feelings or something, if the right player came along, screw him, but Moore wasn't worth it.

[pillwenney]

The article I'm talking about:
http://www.sacbee.com/351/story/1119412.html

A second source close to the Kings said second-round draft picks Sean Singletary and Patrick Ewing Jr. could be sent to Houston as a means to keep the Kings under the luxury tax threshold ($71 million). Both players have partially guaranteed contracts that aren't fully guaranteed until the regular season begins. That element of the deal, however, could be handled with different pieces as well.

Oh I wasn't doubting that there had been an article, it just still doesn't make much logical sense to me--at least not as the main reason. We may have included them to save money, but it was understandable because why pay any money to someone that doesn't seem to have any shot to make a full roster?

Every player's health is a concern, but he wasn't injury prone player, and was checked probably by the medical staff, I had concerns about the fit, but that's not the point, SAR was something like 18/9 player, that's a totally different class than Moore.

He had been checked by our medical staff, but a deal had just fallen through where he would sign with New Jersey because of his knee problems. New Jersey had the opportunity to add him and didn't because of this. We took the risk on his knees, and that risk backfired.

I don't think he would've gone back to his '05 form, but I think he would be better than what he showed last year.
Taking his play last year isn't a valid argument to me, he didn't like being replaced by SAR, how would he feel about Moore? And again, I'm not saying we should've considered his feelings or something, if the right player came along, screw him, but Moore wasn't worth it.

Well the fact remains that he had the opportunity and blew it because he was horrible. Moore was stopgap solution because Kenny seemed to have forgotten how to play basketball. In the minutes he got, he was just that bad.

[_SRV_]

Oh I wasn't doubting that there had been an article, it just still doesn't make much logical sense to me--at least not as the main reason. We may have included them to save money, but it was understandable because why pay any money to someone that doesn't seem to have any shot to make a full roster?

That begs the question, why picking them and signing them in the 1st place? It's not some known players that were thrown, it's newly picked players, you don't have to sign 2nd round pick, the actual signing indicates an intention.

Well the fact remains that he had the opportunity and blew it because he was horrible. Moore was stopgap solution because Kenny seemed to have forgotten how to play basketball. In the minutes he got, he was just that bad.

You give someone a chance as much as you really need to give him a chance, once we had Moore, it was useless to try and straighten KT, so we might not have tried harder, and like I said, Moore sucked in his first games here but he was given a chance, and with all that, let's not forget what Moore is.

He had been checked by our medical staff, but a deal had just fallen through where he would sign with New Jersey because of his knee problems. New Jersey had the opportunity to add him and didn't because of this. We took the risk on his knees, and that risk backfired.

The New Jersey fiasco was more complicated, they had him in a S&T for 6 years, and were giving up a pick in the process, and I do remember talks of them wanting him back for the MLE afterward, but he was already insulted, the risk is always there with players, it's a question of how much you're willing to pay for that risk.

[Cruel_Ruin]

As far as our bigs go Hawes doesn't have the frame for the post on a nightly basis. He'll go to town on guys that are close to his size, but his defense is questionable at best. I'm questioning his drive as well. When I went to the OKC/Kings game Hawes walked back on D A LOT giving up so many easy interior baskets.

I have to officially take myself off the Spencer Hawes bandwagon. Thompson I think it's obvious he hasn't played in the post a lot at earlier stages in his career. He doesn't seem too comfortable with his back to the basket or receiving the ball down low. I think if he can add that piece to his game he will be nasty for years. He's got freakish foot speed for a guy his size. I want to see him with the attitude that I'll rise and slam on you at will. I think he has that kind of athleticism.

After two bad games against Oden? Seriously?

It's obvious that Spencer has to get better defensively. I'd attribute his bad defense more to being really young over anything else, not a lack of effort. He's been more and more active defensively as the preseason has gone along. Not necessarily more effective, just more active. When he gets more experience and more coaching on how to use his size and length effectively. What really took him out last night was foul trouble. The strength mismatch against Oden was obvious. How about let's wait until he matures a bit before jumping off the bandwagon? Not many 20 year olds play defense like veterens.

And what's with the double-standard with Thompson and Hawes? Thompson grew up playing as a guard, so therefore he become more comfortable with his back to the basket game at age 22, but Hawes who also grew up playing as a guard can't become more comfortable with his postgame at age 20? Hawes doesn't have the frame to be a good post player, but Thompson does?

I'm basing my opinion mostly in the game against OKC, where he actually played well in the post against Joe Smith, but do we have to exclude good centers to make an opinion on Hawes?

Spencer's weakness has always been his lower body strength. Until he gets stronger in his legs and base, he's going to be pushed around by the likes of Oden and Dwight, who are physical monsters. He did fine against Bynum and Yao when they were matched up. The OKC game was only the second game of the preseason, Hawes has been showing more and more as the games have gone along.

[pillwenney]

That begs the question, why picking them and signing them in the 1st place? It's not some known players that were thrown, it's newly picked players, you don't have to sign 2nd round pick, the actual signing indicates an intention.

Because we did have an open roster spot at the time. We had 14 guys before we traded Ron for Bobby and Donte, and that gave us 15, leaving them without a spot. So there was a spot that they could compete for, and it wasn't as big of a deal to sign both of them because we weren't quite so up against the luxury tax.

You give someone a chance as much as you really need to give him a chance, once we had Moore, it was useless to try and straighten KT, so we might not have tried harder, and like I said, Moore sucked in his first games here but he was given a chance, and with all that, let's not forget what Moore is.

He was still better than Kenny. I know he sucked, but Kenny's sucktitude was downright astonishing. And yes, Mikki was also given the benefit of the doubt for being a new signing, because his problems (catching the ball) seemed to be new problems, whereas Kenny's problems (a complete amnesia of how to shoot the ball from anywhere on the court) seemed to be continuing problems from last year, and they seemed to only be getting worse. I mean when you think about it, at the beginning of last year, Kenny had stopped taking jump shots all together. Most of his shots were around the basket either finishing a play or on hustle plays. And he shot 42% from the field--that is astonishingly bad.

The New Jersey fiasco was more complicated, they had him in a S&T for 6 years, and were giving up a pick in the process, and I do remember talks of them wanting him back for the MLE afterward, but he was already insulted, the risk is always there with players, it's a question of how much you're willing to pay for that risk.

Yes, there were other things reported (mostly seemed to be speculation from what I recall), but the fact of the matter is that the main reason that New Jersey sighted was SAR's knees. We basically acted like there was no problem at all when we signed him, and we were wrong. There's always a risk, sure, but there was a clear one that appeared to cause somebody else to back out of dealing with SAR, and we accepted the risk, and paid the price.

[_SRV_]

Because we did have an open roster spot at the time. We had 14 guys before we traded Ron for Bobby and Donte, and that gave us 15, leaving them without a spot. So there was a spot that they could compete for, and it wasn't as big of a deal to sign both of them because we weren't quite so up against the luxury tax.

But why sign the 2 of them, he didn't have to sign them, he even could've traded up or traded forth. And I don't get what you're avoiding to admit here, that we have room to operate under LT?

He was still better than Kenny. I know he sucked, but Kenny's sucktitude was downright astonishing. And yes, Mikki was also given the benefit of the doubt for being a new signing, because his problems (catching the ball) seemed to be new problems, whereas Kenny's problems (a complete amnesia of how to shoot the ball from anywhere on the court) seemed to be continuing problems from last year, and they seemed to only be getting worse. I mean when you think about it, at the beginning of last year, Kenny had stopped taking jump shots all together. Most of his shots were around the basket either finishing a play or on hustle plays. And he shot 42% from the field--that is astonishingly bad.

Yes Moore played better than KT, that's not the point, the point is was it worth that 18 millions contract, KT wasn't getting consistent minutes, and his stats last year aren't relevant because of that, and he wasn't getting the PT because we had Moore, and I'm not saying Kenny is better, but Moore isn't much better, and 20 minutes from KT and 5 extra minutes from Hawes with Justin Williams (and later Shelden) providing the emergency backup would've covered for our weakest link just fine, we signed him for next to nothing.

es, there were other things reported (mostly seemed to be speculation from what I recall), but the fact of the matter is that the main reason that New Jersey sighted was SAR's knees. We basically acted like there was no problem at all when we signed him, and we were wrong. There's always a risk, sure, but there was a clear one that appeared to cause somebody else to back out of dealing with SAR, and we accepted the risk, and paid the price.

That's either false or we have morons in our medical staff, I'm leaning towards the first, they checked SAR they saw he could play and they gave him the permission, where are you speculating that from?
And again the price NJ was asked to pay was bigger (bigger and longer contract, them being in the LT territory and having to give up a 1st pick), which makes a difference in the ROI.

[pillwenney]

But why sign the 2 of them, he didn't have to sign them, he even could've traded up or traded forth. And I don't get what you're avoiding to admit here, that we have room to operate under LT?

Why not sign them if the luxury tax isn't an issue? If they don't make the team that's a tiny bit in guaranteed money down the drain. Also, something I had forgotten about before was the Bobby Brown signing, which helps to support the point that it wasn't about the luxury tax. We traded Singletary right around when we signed Brown--who I believe was signed to a guaranteed contract. I think it's safe to say that Singletary was no longer in the team's plans at that point. But before that, the roster was actually at 13 now that I think about it--which would have left space for both of them. But things changed and the roster was eventually at 15 players on guaranteed contracts. So why not trade Singletary to a team who could use his value (which Houston did--to trade for DJ Strawberry)? With Singletary out of the picture and no roster spot avialable for Ewing, adding him seems inconsequential, but regardless, it's pretty irrelevant to our argument about Mikki Moore.

Yes Moore played better than KT, that's not the point, the point is was it worth that 18 millions contract, KT wasn't getting consistent minutes, and his stats last year aren't relevant because of that, and he wasn't getting the PT because we had Moore, and I'm not saying Kenny is better, but Moore isn't much better, and 20 minutes from KT and 5 extra minutes from Hawes with Justin Williams (and later Shelden) providing the emergency backup would've covered for our weakest link just fine, we signed him for next to nothing.

20 mpg from KT would have made for a very poor season. Sure we would have been a bit better in rebounding but we would have been much worse offensively--based on how Kenny was playing. It's not like there was some kind of plan to phase Kenny out of the lineup. He played his way out. With him in Mikki's place last year we would have been a considerably worse team for the simple reason that while Mikki is a very good finisher, Kenny is perhaps the worst finishing PF in the league.

That's either false or we have morons in our medical staff, I'm leaning towards the first, they checked SAR they saw he could play and they gave him the permission, where are you speculating that from?
And again the price NJ was asked to pay was bigger (bigger and longer contract, them being in the LT territory and having to give up a 1st pick), which makes a difference in the ROI.

I'm speculating from the fact that they cited concerns with his knees that turned out to be legitimate. If they had cited concerns with his ankles and he turned out to have knee problems, I would think nothing of it. But it seems to be kind of a coincidence that they cited this and it turned out to be true, don't you think?

That's not to say our doctors are morons, just that they were wrong here. Doctors will have different opinions about things all the time. That's why people get second opinions.

I was trying to find articles that specified here, but I don't recall much of a difference in the contract (maybe a slight one, or I could just be totally wrong here), but my understanding was that they had agreed on the deal and then backed out after the physical.