Rockets cut Strawberry; Keep Von Wafer

[jove9]

See, the thing about people disrespecting Alston is that they always try to measure him against the league's best PGs.

He's not an elite PG. People need to get over that fact.

EVERYONE gets lit up by the top 5 PGs in the league; that's what makes them so good. The thing about Rafer is that he doesn't let middling guys have career nights against him. Well, that and the offense doesn't grind to a halt when he's on the floor.

Similar case with Luther Head. People compare him to guys that they have no business comparing him to.

Let's make this clear: Luther Head is a 3rd string combo guard. Everyone hear me?
And if you ask me, he's probably the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Hell, people can add that to their sig, if they want to.

Luther Head is the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Prove me wrong! Name a better 3rd string SG!

[moofs]

It's hard being an inverse poster on this board.

I used to hate Head, until he's gradually improved everything there is about his game over the last 1.5 years. 90%+ of the people here loved him at the time. Now I think he's a tolerably decent sg/pg 2nd/3rd string backup who's on a rookie contract and gives us some options and depth with no real risk/drawbacks. So naturally, everyone starts hating him because he couldn't cut it as our third option on the second string in a highly injured playoffs.

I took up for Alston since we got him, until this year when I think it's starting to get to be a good idea to trade him asap (yes I realize there are no good, realistic options, which between that and possibly team continuity are probably the only things keeping a deal from happening). Now everyone but kinda iggy is on Alston's bandwagon after the win streak last year.

Sounds like internet schizophrenia. Maybe time to see a psychologists?

Wadero cutting Hayes would be silly.

OH YEAH I didn't even go into Hayes! Massive hate for him in his first two years. Last year and this offseason several people seemed to come around to having him on the team, now suddenly we need to cut/trade him again based on whatever wacky need the team has suddenly developed this week. 'Course i guess that doesn't involve me switching positions with everyone inexplicably moving to the other side at the same time like the other two since I still think he's a great asset to this team, but whatever.

: sigh : :igiveup:

[aznkillabeezZz]

IMO he's an ok nba back up pg during the season. Everyone knows he has the skills, but every year, i haven't seen him develop a killer instinct to bring his game to another level. He's always been a good shooter during the season, but when the intensity is higher (playoffs) he underperforms. He's like a stromile swift or sean williams, players who have potential, but they don't have the mental strength or killer instinct thats needed to go to the next level. He's also got alot of weaknesses finishing to the rim, defense is weak, passing is average. He's a good wide open shooter. He tends to lean forward in his jumpshot , it makes it easily defended, unless wide open. And he always has that nervous look in his face. IMO strawberry is better than luther head

[TMU]

The whole purpose of the preseason is to evaluate newly added free agents and observe how they fit into the team that they signed with. This was supposed to be a dog-fight between Harris, Wafer, and Strawberry.

Cutting Hayes and Head who understand the game more than Harris, Wafer, and Strawberry is a terrible idea.

[King Roosk]

See, the thing about people disrespecting Alston is that they always try to measure him against the league's best PGs.

He's not an elite PG. People need to get over that fact.

EVERYONE gets lit up by the top 5 PGs in the league; that's what makes them so good. The thing about Rafer is that he doesn't let middling guys have career nights against him. Well, that and the offense doesn't grind to a halt when he's on the floor.

Similar case with Luther Head. People compare him to guys that they have no business comparing him to.

Let's make this clear: Luther Head is a 3rd string combo guard. Everyone hear me?
And if you ask me, he's probably the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Hell, people can add that to their sig, if they want to.

Luther Head is the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Prove me wrong! Name a better 3rd string SG!

Here's the problem: Luther Head IS a 3rd string combo guard...but we've been using him as a 2nd string combo guard. He's a very poor option as the backup 2 guard. It may not be his fault that he's our 2nd string guard, but he's done a poor job at the position. Luther's job on this team is to be a good 3 pt shooter, but when you consider the fact that his three point shooting percentage dropped significantly from 44% to 35%, and that he's a very poor defender at the position, you'll realize that we need someone else. I think if we run Barry as the backup 1 then Wafer would be a great 2nd string SG because he can get HOT from 3 (way hotter than Luther), and he has better size. If we run Barry as the primary backup SG with Brooks as the backup PG then I think Wafer would be a better 3rd string guard than Luther. This being said, I think we should try to trade Luther, not cut him, because a lot of teams think he's more valuable than he is. Maybe we could net someone of value in return...

[Rocketsterps]

See, the thing about people disrespecting Alston is that they always try to measure him against the league's best PGs.

He's not an elite PG. People need to get over that fact.

EVERYONE gets lit up by the top 5 PGs in the league; that's what makes them so good. The thing about Rafer is that he doesn't let middling guys have career nights against him. Well, that and the offense doesn't grind to a halt when he's on the floor.

Similar case with Luther Head. People compare him to guys that they have no business comparing him to.

Let's make this clear: Luther Head is a 3rd string combo guard. Everyone hear me?
And if you ask me, he's probably the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Hell, people can add that to their sig, if they want to.

Luther Head is the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Prove me wrong! Name a better 3rd string SG!

I'll prove you wrong, take your pick...
3rd string comb guards better than Luther...
Daniel Gibson or Delonte West - Cavs
S. Vujacic - Lakers
Eddie House - Boston
Jerryd Bayless - Portland
Roger Mason Jr - Spurs
Nate Robinson - Knicks
Acie Law - Atlanta
Ramon Sessions - Bucs
Juan Dixon - Washington
Jarrett Jack or Marquis Daniels - Indiana
J. Crittenton - Memphis

[pancakes3]

i'm going to gamble big and add Steve Francis to that list. Prove me right, stevie.

[tisbee]

Gibson is backup PG,West is backup SG.
Vujacic is Kobe's backup. The Lakers current 3 string gd is Cobe Karl
House is Rondos' backup in Boston.
Robinson is the backup SG in NY.
Law is the backup PG in Atl.
Jack is backup PG,and a quibble but Daniels is more a SF.
Of the remaining 4,Bayless w/out a doubt better,but next yr he's expected to be at least the Blazers backup PG. Crittendon I'd also rather have,but as soon as he's traded he'll be somebody's backup SG/PG. I'd rather have Head than Dixon or Sessions.

Before we totally demonize Luther,he's done pretty well as a backup for the Rockets. Last yr his shooting % was off,but so was pretty much everybody else and he had a couple weeks where he struggled w/his shot after his injury. While he has struggled pretty badly in the past 2 Playoffs,he did have a 10pt 4Q that helped defeat Utah in Game 5 2 yrs ago,including back-to-back 3s that put the Jazz away late. That was the series JVG used him as Rafer's backup and Price annihilated his dribble. Last yr he was the only scoring option off the bench,he pressed,got mental and couldn't throw it in the ocean if he was sitting on an innertube.
As a 10nth man he's fine,somebody who in an emergency will fill in and not get abused while chipping in a 3 or two.

[jove9]

Luther Head is the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Prove me wrong! Name a better 3rd string SG!

I'll prove you wrong, take your pick...
3rd string comb guards better than Luther...

I'll deal with these one at a time. My comments are in italics.

Daniel Gibson or Delonte West - Cavs > Gibson is the backup 1, West is the backup 2. The 3rd string combo guard in this instance is Tarence Kinsey. Advantage - Luther
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=cle

S. Vujacic - Lakers > Sasha is the backup to Kobe. Coby Karl is the third string guard. Luther 2, Terps 0.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=lal

Eddie House - Boston > Last year, this would have been a good counter argument. This year, though, with Cassell approaching his 70s, House has moved into the primary backup to Rondo. Luther dodged a close one. I'll admit it, if you can you say 3-0.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=bos

Jerryd Bayless - Portland > The jury's still out. Let's just go ahead and mark this one down for Luther.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=por

Roger Mason Jr - Spurs > You're kidding, right? Five for Luther.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=1721

Nate Robinson - Knicks > Ok, this one's another tricky one. If Marbury doesn't play, as he's expected not to, then Robinson is the defacto backup point. Whew. 6.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=nyk

Acie Law - Atlanta > Yup, this is too easy. Acie Law is the backup PG, and he sucks worse than Luther Head.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=atl

Ramon Sessions - Bucs > Nice try. 24 assists? Averaged 11 assists in April? Sounds like a pure point guard to me. Oh, and he may even win the starting job! 8.

Juan Dixon - Washington > Vrooom! The moving van's here! There's no way this journeyman is better than Luther. Sorry Terps, but you're 0 for 9.

Jarrett Jack or Marquis Daniels - Indiana > Backup 1 and backup 2, respectively. Uh oh! This could be a sweep!

J. Crittenton - Memphis > What do coaches want out of combo guards? Outside shooting, some energy, maybe a steady hand at the point? Well, let's see what ESPN had to say about your boy:

There is a very good chance Crittenton isn't with the Grizzlies at the start of the season. He has great size and has the physical tools to be an effective combo guard, though his outside shooting needs much improvement. With so many guards in Memphis, we don’t see him getting much of a chance.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/p ... yerId=3197

Even though those aren't comforting words, how about we just call it a draw? No? Is it because WE didn't end up with Pau Gasol? Damn it. You just had to bring up that trade, didn't you?

Ok. Fine. I can admit when I've been beaten.

Javaris Crittenton is a better third string combo guard than Luther Head, only because he was traded for Pau Gasol.

EDIT: Damn it, Tisbee! You beat me to it! Umm... thanks?

[Rocketsterps]

Luther Head is the best 3rd string combo guard in the league.

Prove me wrong! Name a better 3rd string SG!

I'll prove you wrong, take your pick...
3rd string comb guards better than Luther...

I'll deal with these one at a time. My comments are in italics.

Daniel Gibson or Delonte West - Cavs > Gibson is the backup 1, West is the backup 2. The 3rd string combo guard in this instance is Tarence Kinsey. Advantage - Luther
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=cle

S. Vujacic - Lakers > Sasha is the backup to Kobe. Coby Karl is the third string guard. Luther 2, Terps 0.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=lal

Eddie House - Boston > Last year, this would have been a good counter argument. This year, though, with Cassell approaching his 70s, House has moved into the primary backup to Rondo. Luther dodged a close one. I'll admit it, if you can you say 3-0.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=bos

Jerryd Bayless - Portland > The jury's still out. Let's just go ahead and mark this one down for Luther.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=por

Roger Mason Jr - Spurs > You're kidding, right? Five for Luther.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=1721

Nate Robinson - Knicks > Ok, this one's another tricky one. If Marbury doesn't play, as he's expected not to, then Robinson is the defacto backup point. Whew. 6.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=nyk

Acie Law - Atlanta > Yup, this is too easy. Acie Law is the backup PG, and he sucks worse than Luther Head.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=atl

Ramon Sessions - Bucs > Nice try. 24 assists? Averaged 11 assists in April? Sounds like a pure point guard to me. Oh, and he may even win the starting job! 8.

Juan Dixon - Washington > Vrooom! The moving van's here! There's no way this journeyman is better than Luther. Sorry Terps, but you're 0 for 9.

Jarrett Jack or Marquis Daniels - Indiana > Backup 1 and backup 2, respectively. Uh oh! This could be a sweep!

J. Crittenton - Memphis > What do coaches want out of combo guards? Outside shooting, some energy, maybe a steady hand at the point? Well, let's see what ESPN had to say about your boy:

There is a very good chance Crittenton isn't with the Grizzlies at the start of the season. He has great size and has the physical tools to be an effective combo guard, though his outside shooting needs much improvement. With so many guards in Memphis, we don’t see him getting much of a chance.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/p ... yerId=3197

Even though those aren't comforting words, how about we just call it a draw? No? Is it because WE didn't end up with Pau Gasol? Damn it. You just had to bring up that trade, didn't you?

Ok. Fine. I can admit when I've been beaten.

Javaris Crittenton is a better third string combo guard than Luther Head, only because he was traded for Pau Gasol.

EDIT: Damn it, Tisbee! You beat me to it! Umm... thanks?

First point, the ESPN depth charts are not accurate. They list Eddie Curry as the starting center for the Knicks when he's been passed up so long ago he's not even in the current rotation. David Lee and Zach Randolph start down low for NY. There are a number of false rotations for different teams on the ESPN depth charts.

You're a fool, you mix and match your definition of combo-guard to fit your own childish purpose. A combo-guard is just that -- they play multiple positions just like Luther. Luther plays the 2 and the 1. Combo guys are just not "pure" at the point -- hence the name.

S. Vujacic IS the 3rd string point behind Fisher & Farmar on the Lakers not Coby (IR list/D-League) Karl. Vujacic also plays the 2 w/ Trevor Ariza behind or w/ Kobe... ALL combo-guards play both positions. Luther Head backed up Tracy the last 2 years but he also played the 3rd string point. Everyone I listed proved you wrong.

Daniel Gibson plays the 2 and the 1 and so does Delonte West. As a matter of fact Delonte was the starting point guard for the Cavs last year -- not the shooting guard. Pavlovic and Szerbiak both played shooting guard last year opening things up for Lebron who played SF.

Marburry IS PLAYING for the Knicks. I can tell you don't really keep up w/ things -- that's old news now. Marburry may be in the best shape of his life. Moreover, it would be really dumb to waive a 22 million dollar expiring contract when you can trade him at the deadline for a valuable piece if they are in playoff contention. Nate Robinson is a 5-9 combo guard. Not a 5-9 shooting guard don't you remember Aaron Brooks and Nate going head-to-head last year?

Eddie House is Boston's combo-guard. The point guards in Boston are Rondo, Cassell and Gabe Pruitt. Because Cassell is old and didn't play in pre-season doesn't mean he's a 3rd or 4th stringer any more than Mutumbo is behind Joey Dorsey when we sign him back.

Speedy Claxton is back healthy this year and Acie Law is a combo-guard if you watched ATL play like I did. Everyone on this board would trade Luther straight up for Acie Law. Furthermore, everyone but you would trade Luther straight up for Crittenton.

Did you even read the Hollinger reports on these guys or watch the games...
2008-09 outlook: Jack was traded in the offseason to Indiana, where he'll either be in a combo guard role or a pure shooting guard slot coming off the bench -- something he's better suited for than the point.

Juan Dixon shoots the 3 plus plays amazing defense -- something Luther Head knows nothing about.

Roger Mason Jr. signed a two-year deal with San Antonio for $8 million. Do you think ANYBODY in the league would give Luther 4mil per year when his contract expires? NO. If you don't follow the league like I do I would understand you not being familiar w/ Mason. But now that he's in our division I guarantee you that you will agree he's better than Luther Head. The spurs rarely make bad FA signings. And in Rogers case, they chased him down for 2 FA cycles to get him.

EVERYBODY on this board knows combo-guards Jarryd Bayless and Rudy Fernandez are both better than Luther Head RIGHT NOW. Your a fool to say otherwise. We tried to package (Aaron Brooks) our pick and Luther to move up to get Fernandez.

Finally, Ben Gordan, the ultimate combo-guard who plays behind Derek Rose and Kirk Hinrich ices the cake. I'm done w/ you youngin'.
Checkmate! RocketsTerps WINS.

[moofs]

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't think a "third string" player would be pulling over 15 mpg. They definitely don't play 30 and average 20 ppg unless the words "All-Star" are involved. Sasha, and a few of the other mentioned cases, aren't so much "third string" as the third most used guards in their rotations. Seems like there's a difference between being a clear-cut third stringer and being the slightly-third-most-used of 3 players that pretty much split minutes equally. That's more like having a set of second stringers platoon to compensate for not having a clear-cut first-stringer. The argument was that even though Head has gotten second string minutes, he's ideally a great third string player (i.e. you can't watch bring his minutes into play in any argument here because he's very obviously been having to play too many against better competition than he is capable of matching).

Which all brings up a good question of how exactly to define "third string combo guard". Do you need two other combo guards ahead of him? Does he play backup at one spot and third string at another? Third string at both? Orrrr is it more the classic third string definition of "garbage and injury minutes"

Terps may well be right on Roger Mason, but I haven't seen him play and don't know where he fits into SA's schemes and am not looking it up. Javaris Crittenton straight up isn't better than Head at current, but may be capable of being better? Eddie House and Luther are about equally classed, haven't seen House play quite enough to give either an edge though, and House's production has come from being in a high paced offense in Phx, and having a lot of talent giving him more open shots in Boston, so it might not be a fair comparison (akin to the situation Luther will be in this year). I don't know if he could ever pull the kind of work Luther's done. Speedy Claxton is a second string pg, and I wouldn't trade Luther for Acie Law unless he's significantly better than his stats that should be inflated because he's on a bad team say he is (also he makes more money this year, but that's not really relevant). Jarrett Jack doesn't seem like a "third stringer" to me, either.

As a side note, does anyone else remember how Phil Jackson used to call Sean Rooks the best third string big man in the league?

[MaxRider]

Head was awful in playoff so he no longer a good player?
judging by stats he's pretty good backup SG IMO

[Rocketsterps]

Head was awful in playoff so he no longer a good player?
judging by stats he's pretty good backup SG IMO

I've made my case on the 3rd option comb-guard thing. However, I like Luther alot... I just wish he could defend even as well as a Kirk Hinrich could and he'd be perfect. Since he can't defend either position we are always outclassed by bigger guards like Deron and B-Diddy etc. Aaron will never be able to guard those guys -- so we are in TROUBLE if Rafer ever falls to injury. For this reason I would have kept DJ Strawberry on the roster.

[MaxRider]

Head was awful in playoff so he no longer a good player?
judging by stats he's pretty good backup SG IMO

I've made my case on the 3rd option comb-guard thing. However, I like Luther alot... I just wish he could defend even as well as a Kirk Hinrich could and he'd be perfect. Since he can't defend either position we are always outclassed by bigger guards like Deron and B-Diddy etc. Aaron will never be able to guard those guys -- so we are in TROUBLE if Rafer ever falls to injury. For this reason I would have kept DJ Strawberry on the roster.

how many players actually can guard Deron Williams and Baron Davis?
Spurs is putting Bowen on those guys
Strawberry is not going to do any better than Head
if i'm the coach i'm putting Artest on them

[aznkillabeezZz]

Yeah Jerryd bayless and Rudy Fernandez look like really great picks for the blazer. I have a feeling blazers are going to be really good if oden stays healthy.

[jove9]

Checkmate! RocketsTerps WINS.

What did you win, exactly? You didn't prove anything. Even though you accused me of reshaping the definition of a combo guard, you shifted the argument from 3rd string to any combo guard you can think of.

Good job, terps, you can name genuine NBA players who may or may not suck as much as Luther Head.

Checkmate, indeed.

Listen, it's obvious we're getting on each other's nerves here. I think you're annoying and you know nothing about basketball, even though in your own mind you're a veritable encyclopedia of basketball wisdom. How else could you honestly recommend that we get Cedric Simmons and the others, to start them over Scola? Since then, I've taken everything you've said with a grain (or two) of salt.

I suppose we'll have to wait to settle this one later; we'll find out who exactly is "third string" when the season starts. Apparently you managed to outscoop ESPN on the lineups. Hey! Another checkmate! You're on a roll!

So anyway, before we both get warned or suspended, let me just repeat that I'm giving you credit for Javaris (or, "Jarvis," if you prefer) Crittenton. Yes, he IS the best 3rd string combo guard in the league (asterisk appears here). Luther Head is a close second.

We good?

[tisbee]

I live in LA and have watched a lot of Laker games and follow them rather closely so I can win arguments w/my boss who is a big Lakers fan.
I would love to have Crittenton. The kid is fearless taking it to the basket and is strong and athletic enough to finish. His outside shot was adequate as I recall.(Looked up his stats and semi-oops,33% 3s but over 48% overall as a rookie.) His pure PG skills are mediocre,but as a guy who can provide instant offense off the bench he's very good as he can get his own shot at any time.(Snark alert. Wafer played in 16 games,73 minutes as a Laker rookie,Crit in 22 w/171 minutes.)
Sasha is Kobe's backup at the SG. He will only see minutes at the point in an emergency or if Phil wants to go huge. There is a large section of fans who want Sasha to start,w/Kobe moving to SF as that is the best blend of shooting and defense available. While that prob won't happen,increasingly in crunch time they are paired.(BTW Farmar has looked great this Preseason,don't be suprised if he's starting by All Star break.)

[_T-Mac_]

its surprising how much people hate head now
havent been to this forum for a while, havent watched many games lately
apparently hes a choker now? i remember just a year ago he used to sink all types of clutch threes and was a go-to guy for clutch shots.
i guess a bad playoff series could leave a very bad impression on people

[MaxRider]

its surprising how much people hate head now
havent been to this forum for a while, havent watched many games lately
apparently hes a choker now? i remember just a year ago he used to sink all types of clutch threes and was a go-to guy for clutch shots.
i guess a bad playoff series could leave a very bad impression on people

It's very common on this board. The more they know the players (the more they know about their weaknesses) they will hate them more. The people know Head a lot more than Wafer, so they like Wafer more. Hoping Wafer will turn into an all-star caliber player.

[Rocketsterps]

Checkmate! RocketsTerps WINS.

What did you win, exactly? You didn't prove anything. Even though you accused me of reshaping the definition of a combo guard, you shifted the argument from 3rd string to any combo guard you can think of.

Good job, terps, you can name genuine NBA players who may or may not suck as much as Luther Head.

Checkmate, indeed.

Listen, it's obvious we're getting on each other's nerves here. I think you're annoying and you know nothing about basketball, even though in your own mind you're a veritable encyclopedia of basketball wisdom. How else could you honestly recommend that we get Cedric Simmons and the others, to start them over Scola? Since then, I've taken everything you've said with a grain (or two) of salt.

I suppose we'll have to wait to settle this one later; we'll find out who exactly is "third string" when the season starts. Apparently you managed to outscoop ESPN on the lineups. Hey! Another checkmate! You're on a roll!

So anyway, before we both get warned or suspended, let me just repeat that I'm giving you credit for Javaris (or, "Jarvis," if you prefer) Crittenton. Yes, he IS the best 3rd string combo guard in the league (asterisk appears here). Luther Head is a close second.

We good?

Dude, you can't get on my nerves. It was fun proving that there are several combo-guards that are 3rd in their rotation that are better than Luther Head. As far as me suggesting a year or two ago that we should trade for a 20/21 year old Cedric Simmons, I'm glad I have that kind of impact on you that you remember my threads. Why not point out I was the one who correctly suggested we should trade for Ron Artest. I was the first one to say that on RealGm & CF's and got flamed for it. The sad part is that we STILL need a young/long/athletic shotblocking 4/5. Cedric Simmons/ Sean Williams/ Hilton Armstrong/ Nene/ Brandan Wright/ are all guys over the last 2+ years I felt/feel we could/should groom for a role in our frontcourt. While others said Simmons was not available at the time, I correctly gadged he was... and he was traded weeks after my post. It's very similar to folks today that are saying Sean Williams is not available for trade. I'd bet money Sean Williams will be traded by the trade deadline... I hope we are the team to take a shot at him. Finally, stop the lies, I never said start Simmons over Scola. I have said Scola should come off the bench because he cannot defend any of the elite PF's. Artest or Chuck should be the starting 4's trying to defend the athletic Garnett/Wallace/Bosh/Aldridge/Duncan/Amare/West/Gasol/Brand/Tyrus Thomas/Jamison/Odom etc. types backed up by Landry ( followed by Dorsey and Sean Williams once ready). Scola should be Yao's backup and the primary low post scorer when Yao's out of the game.