Murphy's 15 rebounds vs Detroit misleading

[Charcoal Filtered]

After watching the game, a poster on another board was really enthused about Troy's rebounding and some others started railing on him for it. I did not really find his performance that impressive and was surprised to see his total after the game. Here is the post with recap on all 15 boards.

Murphy's rebound total did standout. Watching the game though, I did not think he was a terror on the glass. After reading that you thought he was fighting hard for rebounds, I went back thru each rebound. I would attribute his total to good team defense and being in the right place/right time.

1st rebound - 1120 - 1st - Murph had a good boxout, but there were 5 Pacers to grab the board compared to 1 Piston.

2nd - 1016 - 1st - 4 Pacers to grab the board

3rd - 903 - 1st - 4 Pacers to 2 Pistons - Rasho and Granger box out the 2 Pistons

4th - 044 - 1st - Grabbed uncontested after Danials nice defense on a fast break

5th - 828 -2nd - 4 Pacers to 1 Piston

6th - 808 - 2nd - Murph did not rotate, giving Dice an open shot. Being out of position was beneficial when the rebound went long.

7th - 729 - 2nd - Piston tries to take on 3 Pacers by himself. 4 Pacers in position for rebound.

8th - 650 - 2nd - 5 Pistons in position to rebound a Murph 3. Rebound goes long back to Troy.

9th - 142 - 2nd - Fast break layup miss that Troy did not box out on. Would have went to the Pistons if ball fell on other side of rim.

10th - 1125 - 3rd - Rasheed does not even try, but this one bounces off Rasho's head.

11th - 156 - 3rd - 3 Pacers on the ball.

12th - 1044 - 4th - Again Piston trys to take on 3 Pacers by himself.

13th - 705 - 4th - Ford gets beat, Foster bails him out, Murphy gets the board.

14th - 647 - 4th - Foster holds off the Piston that his giving him a go for the board. Danials tips it to Murphy, who gets the credit for the board.

15th - 320 - 4th - Granger handles the Piston trying to board. Again, Murphy gets credit for the board when it was a teammate that did the gruntwork.

I do like that Murphy's numbers were a result of teamwork, but think he could have easily been replaced. It will be interesting to see this matchup in Indy.

[Gremz]

Funny i hadn't thought of it that way. Very important point. Atleast it endorses the fact that the team is hungry to play some serious D this season. I think i would really settle for Murphy's "right place, right time" theory, provided it's not in direct context of him slacking off and being accustomed constantly getting the 2-3 man help on the glass.

Will be interested to see how he performs in the next few weeks.

[Grang33r]

I don't know. I watched the game and for the most part, on the boards, Troy Murphy was a beast. His positioning was great in the game and it seemed like the ball stuck to his hands. I thought Murphy played a great game.

[FreeRon]

The ball came right to him an awful lot and not due to good positioning...he ran in and the ball just came to him. I'm not a huge fan of Murphy. I think he hurt us more than he helped us last game just because a good majority of those rebounds were not a result of his work and he shot horribly.

[Dunthreevy]

Great rebounders are the guys that put themselves in the right place at the right time. You don't accidentally get 15 rebounds in a game. If that was the case, why didn't anyone else on either team have more than 7 rebounds?

Have we, as Pacers fans, gotten so bitter about our team over the past few seasons that we can't even show some love when a player has a good game. Are we seriously trying to determine why Troy Murphy didn't play as well as his stats read? Why not celebrate a good game instead of try to make it seem insignificant?

[floppymoose]

Troy grabs a lot of empty rebounds. Not sure what he is doing in Indiana, but in GS he would not box out, go straight for the board, and thus get all the easy ones but few of the rest.

Despite filling the boxscore with boards, the Warriors never rebounded better with him on the floor vs off. Keep an eye on that stat for the PAcers this season. Here you see it for last season:
http://www.82games.com/0708/07IND12D.HTM

Team rebounding was -1.7% when Troy on the floor. That's actually not a tiny margin. It's enough to matter. For comparison, it was +3.7% when Foster was on the floor.

Team rebounding % differential is the real way to judge a rebounder. Cliff Robinson was one of the lightest rebounding PFs ever, and yet the Warriors rebounded better back when he was on the team, because he would box out the opposing PF and let his guards come in and pick up the board.

I don't want to totally hate on Troy, though. He does have very good hands. It's part of what frustrates me. He could be a a great rebounder both in the boxscore and for real if he would just do the dirty work.

[mizzoupacers]

^ Just from a logical standpoint, I find that rebounding stat fairly suspect. There are ten guys on the court at any given time. It stands to reason that the OTHER NINE guys have a much greater influence on +/- rebounding than the ONE guy you are isolating for. At the very least, there are plenty of other variables that could also account for the +/-.

I didn't see the Detroit game, so I'm making no judgment on Murphy's rebounding prowess or lack therof in that game. Usually, though, 15 boards is pretty significant. I'm not sure what an "empty" rebound is. The court sure wasn't empty, there were five Pistons on the court who probably had some interest in grabbing those 'bounds for themselves.

[Miller4ever]

Honestly, as the season goes on, we'll see different people shine on the boards. Rebounds are 50% effort, 50% luck. People who make the effort will consistently produce, so we'll get a better picture of Troy after a few more games. I do think this is a good point, but some people make themselves be in the right place at the right time (i.e. Foster, J-Kidd, Lebron James). I think if a player averages 10 rebounds a game, only 2-3 of those are "pure effort" rebounds.

[count55]

Plus, the criticism on blocking out is kind of suspect. There is a school of thought that actually teaches blocking out as bad..the purpose was to be agressive and go straight to the glass.

On the whole, it's better that he had the 15 rebounds than that he didn't.

[floppymoose]

^ Just from a logical standpoint, I find that rebounding stat fairly suspect. There are ten guys on the court at any given time. It stands to reason that the OTHER NINE guys have a much greater influence on +/- rebounding than the ONE guy you are isolating for.

That's extremely true for small amounts of data. Which is why I really want about a full season of data before I pay much attention to any +- or differential type of stat, and two seasons before I really trust it.

Multiple seasons of data all confirm what I said in the first post. Many many games, with lots of combinations. The only thing in common to them was that Troy was off court for the off court measurements, and on court for the on court measurements.