Bill Russell not top 3 centers of all-time

[Visouk]

I was watching NBA Fastbreak last night and they were talking about Shaq's career and some guy, chris broussard? considered wilt, kareem, and shaq in that order as top 3 centers of all-time. I'm just wondering why no love for the guy with the most rings in his career?

[hiphop1]

Bill should be #1 period. He owned Wilt.

[Scalamental]

is this the same show that decided rondo didn't deserve a ring?

[Fencer reregistered]

I don't think anybody should be regarded as a top 3 center without being a much better defender than Shaq. I can understand if somebody's top 3 are Wilt (better defender than Celts fans like to claim), Kareem, and Hakeem. But no way should Shaq be over Russell, Kareem, or Hakeem.

Shaq over Wilt is OK if you want to argue that Shaq won some rings without much in the way of supporting cast, but if you're arguing that way then Russell's rings should put him over Shaq.

[SonicYouth34]

There will never be a list of best players that everyone agrees on, its just based upon some sports writer's opinion. Russell, imo, is the best, but I'm a little biased.

[TheCelticTruth]

i guess it shouldnt count against shaq that he really didnt play against anyone else in the conversation except the last few years of hakeem's career?

ridiculous how we forget the past

[campybatman]

Well, was it not due to a player like Russell and/or Chamberlain that the NBA decided to change certain rules on how you're allowed to guard players or what you're allowed to do in the paint or what have you. I would imagine that the greatest of the great players in the NBA changed the league during their eras in some profound way.

[Pogue Mahone]

I think that Russell is the 2nd best player of all time-- never mind center. (No, Jordan isn't even top-5. He was the best individual scorer but not the best player ever.)

The league was pretty rough and tumble back in those days and a lot of stuff wasn't called. About 5 years or so ago I came up with a rough guesstimate that Russell averaged close to 650 blocks per season in his prime. Wilt probably averaged close to 500/season in his prime.

That may seem astronomical but you have to remember that teams played at a very fast pace, Bill averaged ~42 MPG (rarely missing games) in his prime, fouls were less frequent, Russell was likely one of the top all-around athletes, with size, of his time, there was no three point line so players generally took shots closer to the basket, offensive players likely had less of an idea how to counteract shotblockers, and, though he could score, he put most of his energy into defense and rebounding.

Assuming that my estimation is true, provided we also account for his aging and drop-off in performance, Russell was probably somewhere around a 7.25-7.45 block% player. For a bit of perspective, that would put him 3rd or 4th all-time. Could he have blocked more? Maybe but I feel pretty confident that if he did, it wasn't too many more.

Rebounding-wise, it is just so hard to tell because of the lack of pertinent data. That being said, I did estimate that Russell was likely a 21.0-21.5 career RebRate guy. Again, for perspective, that would have likely put him 3rd all-time after Rodman and Wilt. His prime years were probably similar to Rodman's last two years in Chicago (except not as dominant on the offensive glass) and you were probably looking at Russ putting up 24.0-25.0 RbR's during that time. You have to remember, for much of Russell's time in Boston, Jungle Jim Loscutoff was providing Russ tons of room to snag boards by clearing space. In some ways, you could liken it to the Perkins/Garnett dynamic. Though, in full disclosure, Loscy didn't log nearly as many minutes as Russ so there was likely fall-off in the times they weren't playing together.

All that being said, we do know, from the historical data we do have, that the max out point for defensive rebound percentage in the modern age is about 35%. Only one player has ever had a season when he exceeded that cut-off (92-93 Rodman) but Ben Wallace came pretty close in the 02-03 season when he recorded a 34.95 DRB%. I have a hard time believing that Russell was not in the 31.0-32.0 DRB% for his career and probably inched up towards the 35% mark during his prime.

The better shotblockers change two shots for every one they block, be it from directly challenging the shot to the last burger causing Toine-itis and the player throwing it up before another block can happen. The elite shotblockers are truly game-changers in regards to protecting the tin.

My opinion, from what little classic games I have seen of Russell, is that Russ totally altered the game at the defensive end of the floor. He was quick enough to jump passing lanes, his agility and coordination caused a ton of deflections, he was most certainly a defensive game-changer with his shotblocking alone and he was likely an all-time great rebounder.

Russell is the best center. In 2nd place, Kareem was incredibly dominant throughout the decade of the 70s and, due to him playing so long past his prime, his career numbers just don't reflect how dominant he truly was. As a scorer, over a 14 year period, he was top-10 in the league in True Shooting Percentage an amazing 13 times. That coincided with him blocking tons of shots and hauling in tons of rebounds, as well. Wilt was third. To round out the top-5, I would go Hakeem, 4th and Nate Thurmond, 5th. (Shaq would probably be 6th or 7th.)

[greenbeans]

pfffft. kids these days

[Celtsfan1980]

His huge success at San Fransisco and in Boston means he was a winner in college and the pro's. Everywhere he went he won, so he's not only the greatest Center but the greatest player ever IMO.

[Truthiracy]

People say things like this based on what team they like, period. For every Celtic fan that says Russell is a top 3 center, you'll have a californier barney fan saying George Mikan is in there. So, in other words, the discussion = useless. If you wanna base it on stats, Russell isn't there, base it on rings, he is. blah blah blah

[Dogen]

Russell has so many rings that he was willing to give one to KG if KG didn't win a championship. His attitude as a human being says something more than all the stats combined. Do these contemporary players and sportscasters really understand what guys like Russell went through to achieve what they did? Russell was not concerned about his own stats, he was about getting it done.

Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt are all great players (I'd take Wilt in that trio, easily), but Russell absolutely transcended the game. He's one of the great stories in all of American sports history, period.

[Prophet_C]

Shaq had a recent interview and even stated he could never top Russell and that he's the greatest.

[MyInsatiableOne]

i guess it shouldnt count against shaq that he really didnt play against anyone else in the conversation except the last few years of hakeem's career?

ridiculous how we forget the past

Not only that, when he played against Hakeem in his prime (1995 Finals) he got his ass whipped.

Shaq benefited from being fatter and bigger than anyone else, the refs giving him loads of calls, not having 3-second violations called on him every time, and some decent skills. He also played in an era where there were a dearth of quality big-men. Had he played in the 1960s, 1970s, or 1980s, he wouldn't have been NEARLY as successful.

I consider Russ, Wilt, Jabbar, Cowens, Unseld, Reed, Parish, Olajuwon, Robinson, and probably some others I am forgetting, to be FAR superior to Shaq in both talent and versatility. One of the biggest myths is that Shaq was actually a good defender, for instance...

[Prophet_C]

MIO besides Parish, Olajuwon, Robinson who did you get to watch growing up?

I'm sorry but even though I love the Chief

Shaq>Chief

See I can't tell you who's the best all time. I've never seen some of these guys play. I'm almost 29. Yeah I can watch film and stuff but that's different. Different eras, different styles but Shaq is definitely up their as one of the best. It's not his fault he played in the era he played. Guy was a beast and still can be on some nights.

[MyInsatiableOne]

MIO besides Parish, Olajuwon, Robinson who did you get to watch growing up?

I'm sorry but even though I love the Chief

Shaq>Chief

See I can't tell you who's the best all time. I've never seen some of these guys play. I'm almost 29. Yeah I can watch film and stuff but that's different. Different eras, different styles but Shaq is definitely up their as one of the best. It's not his fault he played in the era he played. Guy was a beast and still can be on some nights.

Well you're right that I did not get to watch Russ, Wilt, Cowens, etc.

When I was growing up, I watched Parish, Jabbar, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, etc...(child of the 1980s/1990s)

Still, don't you think Wilt would have destroyed Shaq? Or Russ and his quick as a snake D would have demolished the lead-footed Shaq?

I do!

[Prophet_C]

Destroyed no.

I can't see anybody destroying Shaq in his prime.

[MyInsatiableOne]

Destroyed no.

I can't see anybody destroying Shaq in his prime.

Even though Hakeem did just that in the 1995 Finals? Back when Shaq was actually mobile and had to rely more on skills than bulk/refs?

[FakeScreenName123]

Why is everyone getting mad at that? thats a dumb question to ask to begin with.


You have unquestionably the top 5;


Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq




Fwiw, Mine would be:

Kareem
Rusell
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq


I disagree with his statement, but I could understand why someone could interchange any of those 5 guys in any of those spots (Specially Wilt, Kareem and Russell). Its nothing to get bothered about. Theyre were all damn good and dominate in one way or another.

[MyInsatiableOne]

^I don't have Shaq in my top 5...top 10, yes, but not top 5.