Suns Hitching Wagon to Shaq

Post #1 » by **rsavaj** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:48 am

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/130312

Again, I side with the players(and Bordow) over Porter on this issue. And the reason that there's so many questions about our offense, Coach Porter, is because it used to be the best offense in the league, so forgive us if we're concerned about that changing.

The Diesel · Post #2 » by **The Diesel** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:59 am

I feel Shaq is getting WAY too many touches this season; I know he is playing very well, but Amare needs to get more touches.

mkot · Post #3 » by **mkot** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:46 am

Sit Shaq more, play the Boris-Amare combo more, get everyone involved. And let's run.

-SDU- · Post #4 » by **-SDU-** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:32 pm

i think shaq is playing well but agree, we are running WAY too many plays for him and making the wrong man the focal point of our offense

it MUST BE AMARE and shaq as a complimentary piece

Never Fear 33 Is Here · Post #5 » by **Never Fear 33 Is Here** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:23 pm

C'mon Coach Alien Head...............it isn't Rocket Surgery.

asubennett · Post #6 » by **asubennett** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:40 pm

So all of you above are cool with having a great offense again only to lose come playoff time.

I am tired of stats and fun up and down. I just want a c'ship for crying out loud and I am sorry but Shaq is correct. You win titles inside out not outside in.

Nash needs to work on his catch and spot up shooting and keep dumping it down to our bigs. We get so many open looks at three every game but the ones taking them more often than not are Barnes and G. Hill from the corners. Not ideal.

If we have Nash, Bell and Barbosa in the game at the top of key and the corners and Amare and Shaq pounding people down low all game I am cool with that. Thats how it should be.

Nash looks terrible running the pick and roll now. His quickness is gone, floor spacing is bad right now. Just let the big dudes punish people all game. Their are not many teams that have the big talent we do. Now why does everyone want to bench that talent and go back to running small again?

Post #7 » by **lilfishi22** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:05 pm

^ The issue with that is we can't go to Shaq for every game, he's going to have terrible nights and nights where he's just tired as hell from previous games. But the Nash and Amare game can run for 82+ games, there's less wear and tear on Nash and more dominating from Amare. Another issue is that while Shaq has been looking good, he's not as dominant as he was and because of that we can't run a system like the Magic does with 3 shooters outside and Howard down low by himself.

nevetsov · Post #8 » by **nevetsov** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:16 pm

^Shaq will still command a double team down low against 90% of teams thus leading to open perimeter shots. This is where Nash, Barbs, Bell, Barnes etc need to find their niche in the half court set.

And while Diaw will never command the attention that Shaq does in the low post, he is crafty enough to be a threat in a one-on-one situation, and has the passing ability to hit the open guys if double teamed. Putting Boris in this role will enable us to play basically the same halfcourt system in the games that Shaq misses, while still being able to push the ball when the opportunity presents.

But the Nash - Amare PNR should ALWAYS be a staple of the Shaq-less offense (which should be around 20mpg).

harshey1388 · Post #9 » by **harshey1388** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:42 pm

i agree with what some of you are saying completely!

more touches to amare hands down shaq is getting wayyyy too many touches.. also love to see the amare/diaw attack more because he helps the running game while shaq is sitting...

i dont know the exact avg. mins on shaq this season but if we want him fresh for the playoff doesnt it make sense to sit him more in games rather than just giving him days off.. that way he never gets rusted about 20 mins a game sounds good to me and then we can utilize amare to the max and start running again.

in last nights game almost every play AFTER Houston got the lead the ball was sent down to shaq... cant live with that.

Post #10 » by **rsavaj** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:00 pm

asubennett wrote:So all of you above are cool with having a great offense again only to lose come playoff time.

I am tired of stats and fun up and down. I just want a c'ship for crying out loud and I am sorry but Shaq is correct. You win titles inside out not outside in.

Nash needs to work on his catch and spot up shooting and keep dumping it down to our bigs. We get so many open looks at three every game but the ones taking them more often than not are Barnes and G. Hill from the corners. Not ideal.

If we have Nash, Bell and Barbosa in the game at the top of key and the corners and Amare and Shaq pounding people down low all game I am cool with that. Thats how it should be.

Nash looks terrible running the pick and roll now. His quickness is gone, floor spacing is bad right now. Just let the big dudes punish people all game. Their are not many teams that have the big talent we do. Now why does everyone want to bench that talent and go back to running small again?

If we keep playing like this, we won't make the postseason. And out of the 4 years D'Antoni was here, I only felt we were outplayed in the playoffs twice (04/05, 07/08). I'm tired of hearing that his system "can't work" in the playoffs. Two WCF appearances in 4 years says different.

Hell, the Knicks just blew out a Grizzlies team that took us to the wire.

harshey1388 · Post #11 » by **harshey1388** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:06 pm

rsavaj wrote:
Hell, the Knicks just blew out a Grizzlies team that took us to the wire.

+1

but i also think we can clearly find a balance in the system we are trying to incorporate now. everyone is saying nash can only play fastball and blah blah but he is a 2 time mvp with one of the greatest work ethics ive seen in awhile, we are just trying to do too much. its almost as if nash brings the ball up and in his head says "ok if i cant do this then ill go here, if i cant hit shaq i have to get the ball to...and so on" instead of just going out there playing and playing by just heart and instinct which i doubt will let these guys down with their experiences with basketball.

porter's system CAN work , we are just trying to do too much as once.

eastsidecrossover · Post #12 » by **eastsidecrossover** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:16 am

rsavaj, 2 WCF = 0 championships! Thats all that matters, and MD could not care if his team played D. That is why we enver won it. Good O, but no D.

Its going to take time and the players need to shut up and play and listen to the coach. Stop Bi***ing and pay D, play smart. They are not doing that.

Amare has to get more touches, porter has to see that, and so does his mates. I like this team, but I don't know if they have the right supporting cast to win it all.

mkot · Post #13 » by **mkot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:30 am

eastsidecrossover wrote:
Its going to take time and the players need to shut up and play and listen to the coach. Stop Bi***ing and pay D, play smart. They are not doing that.

Right now, the way I see it, it's on the coach. Porter doesn't know how to use the Shaq-Amare frontline effectively. MikeD has done better than he has so far in this department.

What I'm worry about Porter is his lacks of imagination. He seems to like everything to be simple. Simple offensive set, simple defensive sets, simple rotations. Just dump the ball to Shaq every time down the floor and let him work. Put Dragic in for Nash, LB for Raja, Hill for Barnes, and Boris for Amare etc etc. We can go from all starters to all bench in just 2 minutes for up to 8 minutes. Who else on the planet does that? This isn't 1992 when Porter was running point for the Blazers. There's a thing call scouting report. He needs to be creative, and I'm not sure he has it in him. I hope I'm wrong on this but he really hasn't done anything creative. He seems too concerned with how we'll match up with the other team, like when he almost didn't put a red-hot Barbs back in the Memphis game. He needs to quit playing it so safe and use his imagination. Let the other guys adjust to us.

nevetsov · Post #14 » by **nevetsov** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:07 am

All this talk of having players that don't "fit" into the system is complete BS. It's just a cop out that the players are using because they don't like accepting the accountability that a methodical system dictates.

Nash is EXACTLY the kind of PG that this system needs - a PG that can flat out shoot the ball. Can you imagine someone like Andre Miller in this system? Now THAT would be a bad fit, because he can't hit the broad side of a barn.

If the shooters do their jobs properly, they should be getting just as many touches, if not MORE than Shaq does, because passing it in to the bigfella down low should be leading to kick outs and swings around the perimeter.

Just because the ball goes in to Shaq to initiate the set doesn't mean thats where it ends ; from that, the ball should come out to the shooters and consequently back into the hands of Nash, Bell, Barnes etc. so EVERYONE gets touches. I mean, we have been crying out for coach to use Diaw in this manner to initiate the half court offense for AGES, now all of a sudden we have Shaq to do the exact same thing instead and everyone hates the idea? Please.

nevetsov · Post #15 » by **nevetsov** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:15 am

Shaq actually said something benefically quote worthy recently.. it was something like "playoff basketball is won from the inside-out, not the outside-in."

This is what we need to be doing, going inside to draw double teams, and then kick out to our shooters. We have the some of the best shooters in the league so we simply need to take advantage of that.

Isolating Amare is ok but it's not something you do first time, every time down the floor - we'll end up playing like the Mavericks and frankly, Amare isn't as smart as Dirk at this point in his career. You save this for short bursts when you need to mix it up, and especially when Shaq is off the floor - which should still be significant minutes every game.

mkot · Post #16 » by **mkot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:24 am

nevetsov wrote: I mean, we have been crying out for coach to use Diaw in this manner to initiate the half court offense for AGES, now all of a sudden we have Shaq to do the exact same thing instead and everyone hates the idea? Please.

No one is hating. Not me. I just want variation. If we dump it to Boris every single time, I would be calling for the coach's head as well. I'm not a fan to have our offense build around Shaq, but if that's what Porter wants to do, fine, but we need balance. We need more moves in sets so the defense have to second guess us. We have Shaq as a willing passer in the post, we have shooters, and we have an inside force in Amare, but Porter aren't using them. It's easy to say play it through Shaq and everyone moves but coach has to teach that.

nevetsov · Post #17 » by **nevetsov** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:50 am

These are professional basketball players - if they need to be "taught" to move without the ball then they shouldn't be in the league. That is primary school basketball.

Coach has his system, which I still believe can be very successful with the personnel we currently have - but the players have to embrace the change, which is flat out not happening right now, especially from our veterans. You can see it from the way they aren't applying themselves in the halfcourt offense, and this is where the offense is stagnating.

Coach can only do so much - he can't get out on the court and ride the players like a jockey. If they aren't moving to the open space, then that's on them, not the coach. I don't believe for a second that with all the complex sets a team has to learn that "moving to the open space so you can have an open shot" would be the one thing that our VETERAN SHOOTERS can't seem to figure out.

Nor do I believe that Porter is so dumb that he hasn't even gone over this with them. You can coach a team of vets but you can't make them listen.

mkot · Post #18 » by **mkot** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:07 am

You are not getting my point. Porter is trying to change the offense and so these guys need to be re-programmed to play his system. Are we practicing any of these sets in drills? I don't know. Is that what they do in practice? Dump the ball to the big guy and just watch? They're not moving right for the past few games already, I definitely put it on the coach not installing a proper offense.

So what if the players aren't listening?

I'm sorry, I put it on the coach as well. That's part of his job. What some of us here have been saying when we were in the process of hiring a new coach? We need a veteran coach to lead a team full of veteran so they'll listen to him. Especially we just had MikeD who's always a player friendly coach. If he lost his players, that's on him. Nash, Hill and Raja are all very coachable veterans, if he lost them, I can only blame him. Porter is messing up with the offense and players are frustrated.

I'd say give them more time though. They really need to sort things out. Maybe we'll get a better sense after 20 or so more games....luckily the Spurs are sucking.