Do We Still Blame The Kidd Trade?

[MainEv3nt]

i mean, kidd has been doing good for us.

[realfung]

I don't but I know a lot of ppl are.

[JES12]

You'll have to be a little more specific.

Blame the trade for our inability to rebuild? Yes!
Blame the trade for being crap against paul? Yes!
Blame a mid-season PG trade for being 16-13 after the trade? Yes!

Blame the trade for ANYTHING this year? No!

[Realmavsman]

This team is clearly not as good as before the trade. I don't understand why but clearly it is true. We are under .500 with Kidd on this team. You would think that he brings more to the table than Harris but for whatever reason this team does not play as well.

I hate to admit that JES12 was right because I argued the point on many occassions but he is correct. Not only did we give up Harris to get him but we gave up two 1st rounders as well. That really hurts.

[DDansby123]

This team is clearly not as good as before the trade. I don't understand why but clearly it is true. We are under .500 with Kidd on this team. You would think that he brings more to the table than Harris but for whatever reason this team does not play as well.

The question then becomes: is it because of the Kidd trade that all these negative things are occurring? Answer that how you will, but the clear answer is no. There are, without question, several things going on that have nothing at all to do with the Kidd deal.

Let's not be overly simplistic about this and equate correlation with causation.


But let me clarify two things here as well. Even those of us who supported trading for Jason Kidd said that (a) we shouldn't trade too much to get him and (b) there needed to be follow-up deals to make it a successful trade either way. Neither of those occurred.

I know we all want to boil all our problems down to a single source (e.g., Avery Johnson, the Kidd trade, etc.), but the fact is things in the NBA just don't work that way.

[catalyst]

Let's not be overly simplistic about this and equate correlation with causation.

I like it, and I dont even understand it!

I think of my church changing governing affiliation 18 years ago, and still blame problems in the current church on the change 18 years. In sports it happens quicker, but the bad melons in the locker room are not the fault of the Kidd trade trade. More needs to be done trade wise. I am not sure that this team can run away from the last three playoff losses.

[fazer86]

we basically got rid of devin and ager and 2 1st rounders
i think jkidd is still a much better defender then devin all devin has is his quickness he isnt tough and u just look at him and u know u wouldnt back down in a street fight from him
Jkidd is the best and most consistent player on the mavz right now its just that hes got 2 counter parts in dirk and josh who great scorers from the 1st quarter to the 3rd quarter and then 4quarter there gone
might as well just tell jkidd to drive to the basket every time he touches the ball in the 4th quarter hell...thas what i would do somethin would open up..hes bigger and stronger then almost any ppoint guard besides probably deron williams

[dirkforpres]

Kidd is playing great this this year... You know who else is playing great? Devin Harris.

[aznkillabeezZz]

no bench depth that's why.

[cmavswin]

This team has one of the worst benchs in the league.
This team has a combo guard starting at the SG.
This team settles for too many jumpers when the going gets tough.
This team plays horrible in the 4th quarter.

Fix some of those issues first than if this team still struggles we can think about blaming the Kidd trade.

[JD45]

The Mavs were 2nd in the West when Harris got hurt last year. Then the Kidd trade, and they barely made the playoffs. Then they had to use their MLE to get Diop back and did not have the picks that could have gotten Artest or another vet. Now they are off to a terrible start. Of course I blame the Kidd trade.

[SpeedyG]

I think you can blame it on the trade, but not the player. Looking at the Mavericks and what seems to be missing, one of the first ones that people see is the lack of a third option for scoring (a consistent one anyway) behind Dirk and Josh (which was Devin)

I think most people looked at bringing in Kidd to help players improve. Unfortunately, the Mavs don't have those players. The roster is filled with guys who are not athletic and can't shoot the ball. A good PG is no good if the guys around him don't finish (either inside or out).

You also have to look at Josh's inability to play WITH Kidd. I don't know if it's a matter of chemistry, personal vendetta, or just lack of IQ in Howard's part, but the two don't click on the court as well as Howard and Harris did.

Add all of that up (along with Kidd's decline as a player) and you see why the Mavericks are struggling. If I was Carlisle, I start playing Green, Bass, and Shawne Williams more whenever the opportunity arises (and decrease minutes of George, Stack). These guys are young, talented, but doesn't know how to play the game yet.

While Kidd won't be a part of the Mavs future, these guys can be. And if you talk to players like Jefferson, Kenyon Martin, Shawn Marion, etc. they all talk about the same thing about playing with Kidd, and that playing with him really helped their game mature and understand what it takes to become bonafide NBA players.

If Kidd can at least do that with Green and/or Williams, then the trade would not be a complete failur.

[SpeedyG]

Kidd is playing great this this year... You know who else is playing great? Devin Harris.

Devin hasn't been playing great at all. If you go to the Nets board, you'll see a thread titled "Will the real Devin Harris please stand up?". His only good game this year was the one against Detroit on AI's first game there (when he blew up and had 30+ points, which was his career high I think)

[JES12]

Just tonight Harris had a 30 pt 8 assist (only 1 to) 6 red & 2 stl game. 1st game back. He brought the trailing Nets back to beat the then, 6-1, Hawks.

You need to give credit where credit is due. If you hate Harris, fine, but don't lie and say he is not doing well this year.

[SpeedyG]

Just tonight Harris had a 30 pt 8 assist (only 1 to) 6 red & 2 stl game. 1st game back. He brought the trailing Nets back to beat the then, 6-1, Hawks.

You need to give credit where credit is due. If you hate Harris, fine, but don't lie and say he is not doing well this year.

Hah nice. Why don't you take a look at the timestamp of my post and tell me I lied. You accuse me of not reading your post before, now I'll call you on the same thing. You accuse me of not calling it how I see it, why don't YOU do the same.

Devin has had two great games this year. One of which came after I made my post. He had a slow start to the season, had the game against Detroit, and then missed the next 3 games. Am I suppose to say he's doing great based on that? Hell, despite those 2 MONSTER games, Devin is still shooting 42% from the field. That just shows badly he was playing prior to those two.

And what else did I NOT call it as I see in my previous post?

a) Was it when I said the Mavs needed a third scorer, which I acknowledged to be somethng that Devin played a role for when he was in Dallas?

b) Was it when I said the Mavs don't have finishers?

c) Was it when I said Kidd is on the decline?

d) Or was it when I said Kidd is not part of the Mavericks future?

Oh, and BTW. Look what I found:

I know Harris schooled Iverson and broke Stucky's ankles the other day, but thus far this year, Kidd >> Harris

Ooops. Looks like, up until last night's game, you were agreeing with me.

[DDansby123]

With posters already having proven my correlation versus causation argument, let me say that speedyg makes a good point that if we're going to blame anything, it has to be the trade, not the player. As I said after last season, Kidd was everything I expected him to be; guys like Howard, JET, and Stack, who were supposed to shoulder the offensive load beside Dirk, simply didn't perform up to expectations. It's more about the guys who were already in Dallas than those we gave up or acquired in that trade; those are the ones who significantly underperformed and cost us any chance of postseason success.

The trade itself wasn't to blame for that, IMO.

But even if Kidd doesn't bring us a championship (which he won't), the trade still offers us tremendous potential to rebuild. If things go so far south that management blows up this team, I'll consider the Kidd trade a success.

[JD45]

With posters already having proven my correlation versus causation argument, let me say that speedyg makes a good point that if we're going to blame anything, it has to be the trade, not the player. As I said after last season, Kidd was everything I expected him to be; guys like Howard, JET, and Stack, who were supposed to shoulder the offensive load beside Dirk, simply didn't perform up to expectations. It's more about the guys who were already in Dallas than those we gave up or acquired in that trade; those are the ones who significantly underperformed and cost us any chance of postseason success.

The trade itself wasn't to blame for that, IMO.

But even if Kidd doesn't bring us a championship (which he won't), the trade still offers us tremendous potential to rebuild. If things go so far south that management blows up this team, I'll consider the Kidd trade a success.

I think that would be true if they hadn't let that 2010 pick go with no protection. Otherwise, they could be shopping Dirk and Josh now and getting substantial value for them. Well, maybe for Dirk. But even then, I think they would be much better off with Devin. He would be the first piece of the rebuilding. Trading Dirk for another good young player and then a little lottery luck and the Mavs are right back in it.

[Larry_Hughes]

The whole team is old, and breaking down.

[JES12]

Just tonight Harris had a 30 pt 8 assist (only 1 to) 6 red & 2 stl game. 1st game back. He brought the trailing Nets back to beat the then, 6-1, Hawks.

You need to give credit where credit is due. If you hate Harris, fine, but don't lie and say he is not doing well this year.

Hah nice. Why don't you take a look at the timestamp of my post and tell me I lied. You accuse me of not reading your post before, now I'll call you on the same thing. You accuse me of not calling it how I see it, why don't YOU do the same.

Devin has had two great games this year. One of which came after I made my post. He had a slow start to the season, had the game against Detroit, and then missed the next 3 games. Am I suppose to say he's doing great based on that? Hell, despite those 2 MONSTER games, Devin is still shooting 42% from the field. That just shows badly he was playing prior to those two.

And what else did I NOT call it as I see in my previous post?

a) Was it when I said the Mavs needed a third scorer, which I acknowledged to be somethng that Devin played a role for when he was in Dallas?

b) Was it when I said the Mavs don't have finishers?

c) Was it when I said Kidd is on the decline?

d) Or was it when I said Kidd is not part of the Mavericks future?

Oh, and BTW. Look what I found:

I know Harris schooled Iverson and broke Stucky's ankles the other day, but thus far this year, Kidd >> Harris

Ooops. Looks like, up until last night's game, you were agreeing with me.

1) My bad on the time stamp.

2) No, I never said Harris was playing bad, so I did NOT agree with you. Just because Kidd >> Harris thus far (at the point I wrote that) does not mean Harris was not doing great, so don't even try to imply I was saying something I wasn't.

3) In today's game, Harris has 33 pts, on 9/15 shooting, 13-14 Ft (thats 45/50 in the last 3 games), 10 assists (only 1 to), 3 reb and a 2 steals. Now, I can say Harris >= Kidd this year in addition to last year (which was already fact).

[DDansby123]

I think that would be true if they hadn't let that 2010 pick go with no protection. Otherwise, they could be shopping Dirk and Josh now and getting substantial value for them. Well, maybe for Dirk.

Why can they not get substantial value now? I don't see how the pick enters into it.

But even then, I think they would be much better off with Devin. He would be the first piece of the rebuilding. Trading Dirk for another good young player and then a little lottery luck and the Mavs are right back in it.

If the Mavs would have actually built around Devin, of course. Unfortunately, I don't think that was EVER going to happen here, which is why I thought we ought to trade him and get value for him. If we hadn't dealt him in the Kidd trade, we probably would've dealt him in the offseason or would be looking at dealing him now. The FO screwed up on Harris from the moment they were thinking of drafting him.


Regardless, the trade's done. We can sit and cry about how bad it was and whine about how we don't have a 2010 pick, or we can actually look forward and see how the Kidd trade has actually helped us rebuild.