Doc Rivers doesn't get any respect because he is black

[GonzoLays]

And that is the long and short of it. Hell, the last two black coaches to win NBA championships were both slapped with the unfounded tag of being bad "x's and o's" coaches. K.C. Jones when he was here and now Doc. Despite massive evidence to contrary (The Celtics had the highest percentage of plays out of timeouts to be successful than any other team BEFORE the big three arrived....but that doesn't matter...that doesn't have anything to do with "x's and o's"...right). And the thing about it, there is not a SINGLE piece of evidence to support that presumption, but people left and right role with it. Why? When was Rick Carslile called a bad x's and o's coach? Hell, when was Jim freaking O'brien given that ridiculous tag? Never, and those guys don't have half the resume of Doc.

You know it is getting old.

Seems to me, the only good quality a black NBA coach, especially Doc Rivers, has is being a strong motivator. Yea, that's the ticket. If you become a nba coach and you are black, that is the first thing people think of you. Just like with Doc. "Oh, he is a good motivator, but bad with the x's and o's." How in the **** does anyone know that?

I can't think of a coach with the resume of Doc Rivers who gets less respect for the knowledge of this game than Doc. Can't think of one. Same thing with Byron Scott when he was with the Nets. People said the same **** about him. I mean, I can understand fans slamming Randy Whitman, because Randy Whitman has never done a damn thing in his career. But Doc Rivers? A guy who took one of the most untalented teams in NBA history to playoffs with Orlando. But Doc Rivers who won NBA coach of the year? But Doc Rivers that led the greatest turnaround in NBA history? But Doc Rivers who won the NBA championship? That Doc Rivers? I don't know of a SINGLE coach in the league with his resume that gets less respect than he does.

But a Larry Brown? Oh, with his one world championship, is some sort of basketball savant. He is soooo good with the x's and o's, people can't stop him. Give me a break.

It's a good thing Doc is so classy and doesn't let the racially-motivated comments get to him. He cheerfully laughs it off with his self-depreciating humor. But you know it rubs him wrong because he knows the reasons behind it. And it is not because people are racist, I dont' think.

Here is a list of coaches that would never, ever be called a bad x's and o's coach if they had Doc Rivers resume:

Scott Skiles
Rick Carslile
Mike D'antoni
Vinny Del Negro
Jim O'brien

****, basically any white coach in the NBA. When a white coach gets fired, he is fired because he rides them too hard, but never,ever because he is a bad x's and o's coach. You know, never because he is mentally (Please Use More Appropriate Word) or stupid if you will. Give me a freaking break.

And leave this thread open mods, this should be a great, open discourse on exactly why people think what they think.

[SexyScottish]

This is without question one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Rivers gets a TON of respect from players and coaches alike. His lack of respect from the media has nothing to do with his race and everything to do with him being the coach of the Celtics. The NBA and it's media hate Boston and have for years. Don't open up a can of worms just to get a rise out of people.

[Rocky5000]

Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce don't get any respect because they're black too. Scalabrine is getting all of the credit.

[threrf23]

Yes, the only reason people criticize Antoine Walker's shot selection must be because he is black. When was the last time you heard someone call Steve Nash selfish?

[BillessuR6]

Ridiculous thread. Gonzo is just bored and looking for attention....

[Barry Lird]

Yawn. Barack Obama gets no respect because he's black too. Excellent point, Gonzo.

[ParticleMan]

i wish what Gonzo was saying was totally ridiculous, but it's not.
for a long time nobody thought black quarterbacks could be successful because they weren't smart enough. all they could do was be athletic.
you may think that attitude is dead and gone just because we elected a black president, but it's not.
i don't agree with the whole premise, i think there are other reasons why people think doc is dumb (mostly because he had 3 miserable lottery seasons), but i can't say that it's not a factor.

[GuyClinch]

^^^ But people don't think Doc is dumb - and Doc gets respect. This thread is stupid.

[OBisHalJordan]

i wish what Gonzo was saying was totally ridiculous, but it's not.
for a long time nobody thought black quarterbacks could be successful because they weren't smart enough. all they could do was be athletic.
you may think that attitude is dead and gone just because we elected a black president, but it's not.
i don't agree with the whole premise, i think there are other reasons why people think doc is dumb (mostly because he had 3 miserable lottery seasons), but i can't say that it's not a factor.

QFT.

The initial post may have been a bit much but racism informs everything in very subtle ways. Gonzo is right. Why isn't Jim O'Brien (who like, by the way) not labeled a bad Xs and Os coach when his offense with the Cs is designed on just jacking up threes and his defense came from Dick Harter?

[Spin Move]

No he gets little respect because until last season he had never coached a really good team, has for most of his career had erratic rotations, refused to play more talented youngsters over inferior more experienced players, things he mostly did not do last season, I still don't think he is a great coach, I think Byron Scott is a much better coach who happens to be black, I think Doc has some great talent and he does a good job managing that talent, but does anyone think without Thibidoux's defensive game plan we would have won the title, Doc is a good coach, but in my opinion thats it,, not a great one that has nothing to do with his race, that has everything to do with the fact that before he had 3 all stars he coached teams that with the exception fo one season in orlando underperformed.

[Datruth345]

i agree in a very basic sense

[threrf23]

The Doc / Francona comparison has been made a few times, because while they coach/manage in different sports, their strengths and weakness are deemed to be the same. Francona makes decisions that I can't figure out for the life of me. But players love him and he is great when it comes to managing his team, and he seems to get the most out of his players. Doc is the same way. His reputation among C's fans is pretty similar to Francona's reputation among Sox fans. Last I checked Terry Francona was a white guy.

Gonzo mentions - Scott Skiles, Rick Carslile, Mike D'antoni - all of these guys are great X's and O's coaches in their own right. Carlisle on the defensive end is like Tom Thibodeau and has gotten similar results in the past despite that players supposedly hate him, Skiles got great play out of poor Bulls rosters that did not have well balanced offensive personnel and overperformed on the defensive end, and I don't even have to comment re: D'Antoni. I'm not so familiar with Del Negro, or his reputation. O'Brien just sucks as an all around coach, but his teams always play hard and swarm on defense and the guy has mastered the art of playing the underdog, people like underdogs.

The notion of racism re: black quarterbacks I don't buy so much either, at least in the past decade or two. Perhaps people subconsciously look at a black QB (or at least rushing QBs, who people associate with 'black' as they associate the running back position with 'black,' i.e. most players who meet the description are black) and assume they are not an accurate passer, but thats partially because of guys like Kordell Stewart who have been horrible passers that have disappointed, there simply haven't been a ton of good black i.e. rushing) QBs and those black QBs that have been good i.e. Warren Moon, McNair, McNabb, and to a lesser extent a young Culpepper have had absolutely no problem getting respect. I might add that Kordell Stewart's passing ability was severely overrated in the 90s, and Michael Vick was overrated in his own right as well.

I am not claiming that racism never enters the picture, and I am not saying that Doc has never faced any racism or prejeducice from media or the general public, I am sure he has. With the whole Rush Limbaugh scenario, the one think Limbaugh said that I agreed with is the fallout from what he said was a clear indication that racism still exists in our society moreso than people like to acknowledge, as if it didn't people wouldn't feel so touchy about the subject and what Rush said. But I completely think that the overall premise of this thread is rediculous.

[Bad-Thoma]

I've always liked Doc, and while I do think most of the disrespect he recieved was due to the general lack of success the team had up til last year I'm sure there are some ignorant **** out there who don't think a black man can coach so I can't completely disagree with Gonzo, though I'd prefer to just on principles. Though prejudice unfortunately can never be completely eradicated those of us who've risen above the ignorance of our predecessors can now take heart, the election of Barack Obama is proof positive of how far this country has come. As for what Rush Limbaugh said about black quarterbacks, no one should take anything that fat bag of **** says as being representative of anything except his own narcissistic opinion.

[bruno sundov]

IBTL. Stupidest thread of the year. jut crown in it now. Just like denny green would say. But he is black and a head coach also. Oh well, stupidest thread of the year by far. the calendar year.

[GonzoLays]

^^^ But people don't think Doc is dumb - and Doc gets respect. This thread is stupid.

Wow, umm, you really cleared that up. Thanks for the contribution.

IBTL. Stupidest thread of the year. jut crown in it now. Just like denny green would say. But he is black and a head coach also. Oh well, stupidest thread of the year by far. the calendar year.

unless you are 12 years old, that answer is not acceptable. its like you are throwing a hissy fit or something. come on, i know you can do better. i believe in you.

[mrautobahn]

unless you are 12 years old, that answer is not acceptable. its like you are throwing a hissy fit or something. come on, i know you can do better. i believe in you.

Dude... the majority of posters thinks this thread is very stupid... And besides... I think you might want to come back with some better material... this one is below your usual hilarious standards...

Just sayin'

[hickfromfrenchlick]

I don't think it's a stupid thread.

Just yesterday, a Piston fan came over here to ask if we thought Doc was "stupid" and lucky rather than a good coach.

Gonzo's right: Doc -- as late as the Finals -- was regarded by most C's fans as a good motivator and a guy who the players wanted to perform well for, and not as a good tactician. Every rotation decision he made was subject to criticism. (Play Sam! Don't play Sam! Play Eddie! Don't play Eddie! Play Rondo more! Play Rondo less!) And the word "idiot" got thrown around a lot.

We won #17, so now most C's fans would say that Doc's a good coach. That's a lot of bandwagon support.

Just because the majority of people want to dismiss the suggestion out of hand doesn't mean there's no validity to it.

[AlCelticFan]

I think there is definitely validity to it. I don't think it is overt racism. It is just the way human brains work. There are stereo-types. White people are stereo-typed as well.

[Rocky5000]

People didn't like Doc because his accomplishments and in game decisions signaled to them that he was a bad coach. They had a pretty good argument going until he got 2 hall of famers into the starting lineup, a veteran team, and a great defensive coach. They weren't doubting Doc as a coach because he's black, they were doubting him because the results weren't there. People doubted Jim O'Brien, Rick Pitino, and ML Carr too. However, none of those guys had this roster, so maybe we were unfair to them as well.

[AlCelticFan]

People were saying he wasn't good at X's and O's when he was actually doing great out of time outs. How do you explain that?