Official Game Thread: Nets 112 Clippers 95 Final

[NetsForce]

I didn't even realize that Yi had 27 pts...

[St_Patrick_Nets]

back to 0.500! lakers next

[etopn23]

VC might end up being a MPV candidate if we finish in the top 4 lol.

[vincecarter4pres]

VC might end up being a MPV candidate if we finish in the top 4 lol.

If we have 50 wins he still wouldn't get it.
He'll play out his career and even if he wins a ring he'll never get the respect he deserves, but it is what it is.

[rag-time4]

Looks like Yi got to the foul line 8 times... Can anyone shed some light on what he was doing to get to the line? My biggest problem with his game so far this season has been that he has been too passive and hasn't gotten to the line nearly enough.

He's capable of doing this consistently if he puts for the effort instead of just passively hoisting up jumpers.

[Adam1221]

On otro sexy win.
0.500 again !!!!!!
WOOO throw the party hats (even though we're not staying with it or going above it when we go up against the Lakers Im afraid).

Yi Jianlian, I told you guys this kid is special by next season he can be really really really good.
Another great solid game for LOOOOOOPEZ.
Nothing left to be said about the Harris-Vince 1-2 combo really absulotley nothing.
Even bloody Simmons had a great game lol.

[jerseyjac]

I didn't even realize that Yi had 27 pts...

were u watching the game...

He does has a way of accumalating points quietly...man its nice when his shot is falling, and he is really trying to dunk the ball and use the paint on the off. end...I just love how active he is on the deffensive side, had that nasty block last night...you have to say he anticipates well on the defensive end...

[jerseyjac]

Looks like Yi got to the foul line 8 times... Can anyone shed some light on what he was doing to get to the line? My biggest problem with his game so far this season has been that he has been too passive and hasn't gotten to the line nearly enough.

He's capable of doing this consistently if he puts for the effort instead of just passively hoisting up jumpers.

he's not just hoisting jumpers...his job is to stretch the defense and our offense is made up with him rotating/roaming out on the perimeter for open shots...a lot of high pick and roles...

he's getting to the line being aggressive on the boards...he had one or two "and ones"...I completely disagree with your statement that he has been too passive...at certain times its him being active consistently w/in our offense...you can actually see Yi calling for the ball at times...but I wont deny there has been games he looks a bit lost (remember its only his second NBA season)...I have trouble calling him passive or timid with how active he is on the defensive end... with boarding (alomst 7 rebs a game) and challenging shots...

Yi cant allow his offensive game dictate the type of overall game he'll have...and i think he's learning this...there is a huge amount of talent here...at the very least he is on the same track Yao was as far as learning to be aggressive in the NBA...I actually think with his mobility he is more aggressive with his overall game on the court...minus the disappearing acts, I'm very please w. Yi...big surprise in my book, and we need to be patient with him...the consistency will come in time...

[6_Rings]

i think Yi's big game has a lot to do with his benching in the last game vs the Raps. hey if this guy is angry he plays like an all-star. what is he the the hulk? You better make him revved up every home game...

[jerseyjac]

btw, big step for the Nets, all 5 starters in double figures for the first time...I think that Alley ignited Bobby a bit...he's better than what he has been playing...Brook was talking about this...I always combine Hayes and Simmons numbers...last night Bobby pulled his weight and when these guys are over 15pts a game and challenge on the defensive side, we're that much better...

you can officially call us a 3 pts shooting team...we're 6th in the NBA in 3pt fg % @ 38.6% and 7th with 3pt fgs made @ 7.3...call the Nets an offensive team with 99.9 pts/gm (6th in the NBA), obviously our defense needs some work, but I still see us capable of holding teams to 95-97pts/ gm while scoring 100pts on avg...

[rag-time4]

Looks like Yi got to the foul line 8 times... Can anyone shed some light on what he was doing to get to the line? My biggest problem with his game so far this season has been that he has been too passive and hasn't gotten to the line nearly enough.

He's capable of doing this consistently if he puts for the effort instead of just passively hoisting up jumpers.

he's not just hoisting jumpers...his job is to stretch the defense and our offense is made up with him rotating/roaming out on the perimeter for open shots...a lot of high pick and roles...

he's getting to the line being aggressive on the boards...he had one or two "and ones"...I completely disagree with your statement that he has been too passive...at certain times its him being active consistently w/in our offense...you can actually see Yi calling for the ball at times...but I wont deny there has been games he looks a bit lost (remember its only his second NBA season)...I have trouble calling him passive or timid with how active he is on the defensive end... with boarding (alomst 7 rebs a game) and challenging shots...

Yi cant allow his offensive game dictate the type of overall game he'll have...and i think he's learning this...there is a huge amount of talent here...at the very least he is on the same track Yao was as far as learning to be aggressive in the NBA...I actually think with his mobility he is more aggressive with his overall game on the court...minus the disappearing acts, I'm very please w. Yi...big surprise in my book, and we need to be patient with him...the consistency will come in time....

Jac I think he definitely has been too passive at times. There have been several games where he shot terribly from the floor and didn't get to the foul line at all.

Here is the game log

From the game log:
11/1 vs GSW (L): 0-4 shooting, 0 FT attempts
11/8 @ IND (L) : 1-10 shooting, 0 FT attempts
11/12 vs IND (L): 4-13 shooting, 0 FT attempts
11/15 @ ATL (W): 2-6 shooting, 0 FT attempts
11/21 @ TOR (W): 3-8 shooting, 0 FT attempts

A question: which is a more effective means of 'stretching a defense' (putting pressure on a defense)
a) reliance on an inconsistent and boring perimeter shot
b) aggressively getting to the foul line and drawing fouls on opposing defenders

I say without hesitation the answer is b. Relying on perimeter shots to stretch a defense is not a winning strategy in my opinion. I've seen Yi consistently getting open shots, because other teams are willing to give him open shots. Defenses are usually trying to get the offensive team to shoot from the perimeter, because it's lower percentage and doesn't get their key players into foul trouble.

[jerseyjac]

i know the games he struggled in...but there are other stats to look at in some of those games...

but what the hell does BORING have to do with analyzing a player's game???

Now if you want to stress fts and aggresiveness in attacking the basket, I've agreed and we all know the Nets coaching staff has stated this publically...they are trying to have Yi take the basket to rim more, while mixing it up more in the paint...however, this focus has already been seen on floor from Yi in recent games...maybe your not watching games, my apologies for asking, do you watch Nets games? are u from NJ/NY? Do you get regular broadcasts?

Most importantly, what you are REALLY failing to realize is...Yi IS A JUMP SHOOTER, first and foremost...the Nets are trying to expand his game in some of the ways you have mentioned, but in all honestly again, THATS A GIVEN...

and again I apologize, BUT, why do you bring Stro into every converstaion, thread, post and debate...WOW

[DrM]

Yi's game is evolving, and it's evolving within the game plan of the coach. He cannot start making new moves on his own.

We have seen him driving to the basket in the Toronto game and even more in the Clippers game. He has also shown more aggressiveness in dunking the ball in the Clipper game. As Fratello said, once he has learned how to use his athleticism in the paint (and become consistent with his outside shots), the combination of his inside-outside game will be very lethal. Big men take longer to develop. So we need to give him and the coaching staff time to develop his game.

One thing people often do not mention is that his defense and rebounding are improving. With LFrank, the better Yi plays defense and rebounds, the more playing time he'll get and that also translates into more offensive contribution.

On the subject of defense, he has cut down on unnecessary fouls. But he has to start protecting the driving lane more and attempt to take charges. Even if he picks up 2-3 fouls like that, he won't be in foul trouble if he does not give up unnecessary fouls somewhere else. In general, I think a coash would prefer him attempt to close down the lane more. Initially, he may have a lot more blocks and charges, but that's a learning process too.

[rag-time4]

i know the games he struggled in...but there are other stats to look at in some of those games...

but what the hell does BORING have to do with analyzing a player's game???

Now if you want to stress fts and aggresiveness in attacking the basket, I've agreed and we all know the Nets coaching staff has stated this publically...they are trying to have Yi take the basket to rim more, while mixing it up more in the paint...however, this focus has already been seen on floor from Yi in recent games...maybe your not watching games, my apologies for asking, do you watch Nets games? are u from NJ/NY? Do you get regular broadcasts?

Most importantly, what you are REALLY failing to realize is...Yi IS A JUMP SHOOTER, first and foremost...the Nets are trying to expand his game in some of the ways you have mentioned, but in all honestly again, THATS A GIVEN...

and again I apologize, BUT, why do you bring Stro into every converstaion, thread, post and debate...WOW

Where was Stro in my last post? I aplogize, BUT I didn't mention him, I listed Yi's games with 0 free throw attempts combined with poor shooting. Besides, with Yi we're talking about a player who plays the same position as Stromile... I prefer Stromile's aggressive style of play to a jumpshot-reliant style.

Whether or not a player is BORING can be an indicator of the quality of his play. An aggressive, passionate style of play is usually much more effective at getting the home crowd involved and the road crowd quiet. Playing aggressive can totally turn around the momentum of games and crush the will of the opposing team.

But so can being consistently effective. Yi is being counted on not to be a complementary player like a Steve Kerr, but he is being counted on to be a significant contributor.

It seems we agree, and the coaches agree, that he needs to be consistently more aggressive. You say that Yi has made strides in recent games, yet the 11/21 game i listed was only a couple days ago... And even before the last couple games, he had some good games early on as well.

jac, in an above post, which you quoted, I pointed out that Yi got to the line 8 times. I asked if anyone could share what he did to get to the line, but as yet nobody has responded. The reason I asked was because I'm not watching the games and would like some detailed info!!

Thus far this season, Yi is averaging 2.4 Free throw attempts per game... Chris 'Birdman' Andersen of the Nuggets is averaging 2.5 ....

I'm a fan of Andersen, but that level of production from Yi isn't acceptable. He needs to really step up and be more consistently aggressive. Yi is capable of so much more. I think we agree.... and that's all I'm saying. If Yi doesn't improve on that, however, then there's a problem. That's what I'm looking for as I evaluate Yi.

[DrM]

The reason I asked was because I'm not watching the games and would like some detailed info!!

rag-time4,

I am not sure what you mean by "I'm not watching the games." Just the Clippers game? some or all other games?

In any event, Yi went to the line 4 times. Twice because he was fouled in the process of getting offensive rebounds. Twice because he was fouled in the process of dunking the ball.

It has been a couple of days, but what I remember is that in all, he attacked the basket about 5 times, resulting in 1 miss, 1 dunk, 1 layup, 2 fouls (as mentioned above).

He really started attacking the basket in the last 2 games. My take on it is that it is part of the game plan - he would not start driving to the basket without encouragement from the coaching staff. He did so 2-3 times in the Toronto game, and did it even more in the Clipper's game. Furthermore, the way he dunked the ball was progressively more aggressive as the game went on. (Fratello and Albert also commented on that.) It seems that this is what the coaches want him to do and we can expect him to attack the basket even more as the season progresses. Expect his points in the paint and FT attempts to increase gradually from now on.

He still made a few defensive mistakes but overall did a decent job in defense. However, that was against a weak Clippers team. Nonetheless, his defense is gradually improving, as is his rebounding.

Hope this helps.

[rag-time4]

The reason I asked was because I'm not watching the games and would like some detailed info!!

rag-time4,

I am not sure what you mean by "I'm not watching the games." Just the Clippers game? some or all other games?

In any event, Yi went to the line 4 times. Twice because he was fouled in the process of getting offensive rebounds. Twice because he was fouled in the process of dunking the ball.

It has been a couple of days, but what I remember is that in all, he attacked the basket about 5 times, resulting in 1 miss, 1 dunk, 1 layup, 2 fouls (as mentioned above).

He really started attacking the basket in the last 2 games. My take on it is that it is part of the game plan - he would not start driving to the basket without encouragement from the coaching staff. He did so 2-3 times in the Toronto game, and did it even more in the Clipper's game. Furthermore, the way he dunked the ball was progressively more aggressive as the game went on. (Fratello and Albert also commented on that.) It seems that this is what the coaches want him to do and we can expect him to attack the basket even more as the season progresses. Expect his points in the paint and FT attempts to increase gradually from now on.

He still made a few defensive mistakes but overall did a decent job in defense. However, that was against a weak Clippers team. Nonetheless, his defense is gradually improving, as is his rebounding.

Hope this helps.

DrM, that's exactly what I was hoping for. I haven't been able to watch the games since the free preview of NBA league pass ended but I saw the first few games.

When you suggest we expect Yi's points in the paint and FT attempts to gradually increase... I would add that we as fans and the coaching staff should demand it, and hold him accountable for it. He has shown he's capable, so no excuses. If he's mediocre defensively he can't also be passive and boring and settle for too many jumpshots when he can do much more.

[DrM]

... the coaching staff should demand it, and hold him accountable for it

As we have repeatedly said: he has to play within the game plan. The game plan did not include him operating inside before. Now the Nets appear to be adding this to the team offense. It is the coaches that make that decision, not he.

Secondly, he is far from a finished product. You sound as though he is just not producing out of lack of efforts. But if you watch him closely as I have, you'll see that he tries very hard offensively to play his role in each play and likewise defensively. The results are often not as planned not because of lack of efforts (unlike what Frank and most observors think) but deal to being only a sophomore in the league and also early in the season with a new team.

The criticism on him has been unreasonably harsh. He an athletic big who had not played American basketball until 1 year ago. (Besides, the conventional wisdom is that it takes longer for a big man to develop in the NBA.) He is a sophomore who have wasted a year of potential development in the pathetic team in Milwaukee due to the toxic environment. Now he is in a new team that is still trying to learn to play with so many new and young players. No doubt he has made many offensive and defensive mistakes. But it's only 12 games into the season and we are seeing steady improvement in his game. As I have said in the past, if he can get to an equivalent level of

rebounds + assists + steals + blocks - turnovers >= 11 this year

and improve this yardstick by 1.5 per year, he will be one of the better starting PFs in 3-4 years. The better he plays, the more playing time he gets, the more the offense will get him involved, and the offensive production will increase as a byproduct.

[jerseyjac]

i know the games he struggled in...but there are other stats to look at in some of those games...

but what the hell does BORING have to do with analyzing a player's game???

Now if you want to stress fts and aggresiveness in attacking the basket, I've agreed and we all know the Nets coaching staff has stated this publically...they are trying to have Yi take the basket to rim more, while mixing it up more in the paint...however, this focus has already been seen on floor from Yi in recent games...maybe your not watching games, my apologies for asking, do you watch Nets games? are u from NJ/NY? Do you get regular broadcasts?

Most importantly, what you are REALLY failing to realize is...Yi IS A JUMP SHOOTER, first and foremost...the Nets are trying to expand his game in some of the ways you have mentioned, but in all honestly again, THATS A GIVEN...

and again I apologize, BUT, why do you bring Stro into every converstaion, thread, post and debate...WOW

Where was Stro in my last post? I aplogize, BUT I didn't mention him, I listed Yi's games with 0 free throw attempts combined with poor shooting. Besides, with Yi we're talking about a player who plays the same position as Stromile... I prefer Stromile's aggressive style of play to a jumpshot-reliant style.

Whether or not a player is BORING can be an indicator of the quality of his play. An aggressive, passionate style of play is usually much more effective at getting the home crowd involved and the road crowd quiet. Playing aggressive can totally turn around the momentum of games and crush the will of the opposing team.

But so can being consistently effective. Yi is being counted on not to be a complementary player like a Steve Kerr, but he is being counted on to be a significant contributor.

It seems we agree, and the coaches agree, that he needs to be consistently more aggressive. You say that Yi has made strides in recent games, yet the 11/21 game i listed was only a couple days ago... And even before the last couple games, he had some good games early on as well.

jac, in an above post, which you quoted, I pointed out that Yi got to the line 8 times. I asked if anyone could share what he did to get to the line, but as yet nobody has responded. The reason I asked was because I'm not watching the games and would like some detailed info!!

Thus far this season, Yi is averaging 2.4 Free throw attempts per game... Chris 'Birdman' Andersen of the Nuggets is averaging 2.5 ....

I'm a fan of Andersen, but that level of production from Yi isn't acceptable. He needs to really step up and be more consistently aggressive. Yi is capable of so much more. I think we agree.... and that's all I'm saying. If Yi doesn't improve on that, however, then there's a problem. That's what I'm looking for as I evaluate Yi.

regardless, you bring his name up 99.9% of the time, where at this point in the season, with no games played, he is irrelevant as a reference and you're living in the past...(SEE QUOTE BELOW)

[The page you mention is for last night only. /quote]

Yes. Thanks.

Now regarding how Yi's minutes are used by Frank - I just want to you guys 2 follow-up questions :

1. Rebounding is not known to be Yi's strong point. In games when Boone was starting, Yi was having a better rebound average than when Lopez is starting. Can this be explained by the slightly different role he's playing in the game when he's paired with Lopez? Also, Yi's assignment includes much of the time in the periphery in offense and the player he defends also tends to be more mobile and play farther from the basket in general. Does it follows that his rebounding ability is actually a little better than his actual numbers so far?

2. Defense is also not known to be Yi's strong point. But Milwaukee was not exactly a place that teaches a young player to play defense. How do you rate Yi's progress in learning to play defense so far this year in terms of covering his primary responsibility, helping/rotating, etc.

1. Yes! Rebounding as an individual stat is often overrated. The key is always to see how many offensive boards the player gives up, particularly to the opposing player he's matched up with and supposed to be boxing out.

2. I think Yi needs to be more aggressive on both ends. He has the ability to block some shots, though he doesn't have the explosive athleticism of Stromile Swift of Shawn Williams. Yi can be better defensively if he plays defense more aggressive. Offensively, he needs to attack the basket more and get to the line. He's often compared to Nowitzki in terms of his offense, but Nowitzki for his career averages over 6 free throw attempts per game, while Yi averages only 2. In Stromile Swift's second season, when he played about as many minutes as Yi plays now, Swift averaged over 4 free throw attempts per game. I say that to say that Yi can do much better in terms of his aggression. Swift is not regarded as a good offensive player, yet he has consistently been more aggressive and more able to get to the foul line. Yi shot 8 free throws in the last game, which is a sign of what he's capable of. Let's see that aggression on a more consistent basis!

Also, looking at that +/- stat page, does anyone know what the column +/- min means?

"Player fan boys" only have so much to contribute...

[jerseyjac]

The reason I asked was because I'm not watching the games and would like some detailed info!!

rag-time4,

I am not sure what you mean by "I'm not watching the games." Just the Clippers game? some or all other games?

In any event, Yi went to the line 4 times. Twice because he was fouled in the process of getting offensive rebounds. Twice because he was fouled in the process of dunking the ball.

It has been a couple of days, but what I remember is that in all, he attacked the basket about 5 times, resulting in 1 miss, 1 dunk, 1 layup, 2 fouls (as mentioned above).

He really started attacking the basket in the last 2 games. My take on it is that it is part of the game plan - he would not start driving to the basket without encouragement from the coaching staff. He did so 2-3 times in the Toronto game, and did it even more in the Clipper's game. Furthermore, the way he dunked the ball was progressively more aggressive as the game went on. (Fratello and Albert also commented on that.) It seems that this is what the coaches want him to do and we can expect him to attack the basket even more as the season progresses. Expect his points in the paint and FT attempts to increase gradually from now on.

He still made a few defensive mistakes but overall did a decent job in defense. However, that was against a weak Clippers team. Nonetheless, his defense is gradually improving, as is his rebounding.

Hope this helps.

DrM, that's exactly what I was hoping for. I haven't been able to watch the games since the free preview of NBA league pass ended but I saw the first few games.

When you suggest we expect Yi's points in the paint and FT attempts to gradually increase... I would add that we as fans and the coaching staff should demand it, and hold him accountable for it. He has shown he's capable, so no excuses. If he's mediocre defensively he can't also be passive and boring and settle for too many jumpshots when he can do much more.

First and foremost let me make this clear...I have no problems with Net fans posting comments and thoughts here who do not get to watch games on a regular basis...Fans can obviously follow the Nets adequately through other sources beyond the live television broadcast...

However, you Ragtime, are missing a lot...I have no problem with the Nets boards informing fans of whats going on during games in post game threads and others that apply...but you're missing a lot that doesnt show up in a box score or in highlights... see DrM's posts (btw, thanks)...

I also want to emphasize, the fact that you dont get to watch live games, DOESNT make you any lesser of fan than me...some of ourveteran posters Speedy, jeff (I dunno if your back in NYC) aussie who catches a lot of games on delay or Cruz who is also outside the country and doesnt get to see the game...to name few...all contribute here well, without crossing lines or stating things they dont know or havent seen...A lot of these guys have perfected the ability to analyze and breakdown the Nets in their particular situation...and I would never want to offend any of them...

the fact is, your missing gameplay, Yi's in game movement, reactions and body language...You miss Yi's effort on any given play or the intangibles which do not show up in a box score or what you read in a delayed online feed...At the same time, you are commenting on it through asummptions....so when you quote pure FT numbers and post your thoughts, you leave reason to believe, and have done so in the past, that you're not actually watching games and every minute Yi played on those nights...