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Post#1 » by rsavaj » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:56 pm

http://www.mensjournal.com/mike-dantoni

Great article on D'Antoni. Thought it was a really good read, found the part about Kerr/D'Antoni a little disheartening.

Some interesting excerpts:

“People think he just rolls out a ball and tells the guys to shoot it till they’re tired,” says Alvin Gentry, a Suns assistant and a former head coach himself. “The whole idea of spacing, moving the big men out and keeping the middle open for drivers, the drags and drops” — a series of on-the-fly screens meant to create easy shots — “if that’s so simple, how come no one tried it until he came along? Outside of Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich, you show me a coach who’s brighter than Mike, or more brilliant at making teams adjust to him.”

His hardwired offense gets all the play, but the soft-tissue stuff — the way he deals with psyches — is every bit the anomaly these days. “Mike is the best I’ve seen at handling players,” says Gentry, who stayed with Phoenix for family reasons after D’Antoni took the job in New York. “It’s no big secret we had guys who needed stroking, and the way he pumped up Shawn [Marion] and Leandro [Barbosa] with confidence — hell, this group went to war for him every night.” In a profession of screamers and cross-armed strongmen, what marks D’Antoni is his stony optimism and the creative freedom he gives his team. “If I throw one into the stands,” Nash once told me, “he knows I’m trying for something special, not just screwing around and being careless. Guys play hard for coaches who believe in them, and his greatest strength is giving that to his players.”

As players from other teams are well aware. “Every kid we brought in for predraft workouts said they badly wanted to play for Mike,” says Jonathan Supranowitz, the Knicks vice president of public relations. “Not, ‘I want to play at the Garden’ or ‘I love New York’; it was Mike and his energy. And as we go forward and get out from under the salary cap, it’ll be Mike’s reputation that really makes us players [in the big free-agent market] in two years.”



...What followed was an anatomy of a death foretold. Less than a month into the 2007–’08 season there was a screaming match between D’Antoni and the new GM there, Steve Kerr. “Steve went in to make suggestions about the defense, and Mike just exploded,” says Paul Coro, the Suns beat writer for the Arizona Republic. Tensions between the two men simmered all season, and though D’Antoni had actually stumped for the midyear trade that brought Shaq O’Neal west for Shawn Marion, it was widely seen as being forced down his throat by an undermining front office. D’Antoni, rubbed raw, barked at sports-talk callers who criticized his bench rotations, and went upstairs to backbite the guys who called the Suns’ games on TV. After game one in the first-round playoff series against the Spurs, in which D’Antoni got burned by a decision not to foul and blew a win the Suns had in the bag, “I barely recognized him,” says a Suns’ insider. “He wasn’t his personable, insightful self, and he felt really betrayed by the second-guessers.” The Suns went on to lose that series in five games.

"I was pretty disillusioned,” says D’Antoni, who was given permission by Phoenix to seek another job. “I thought, after all I’ve done here, the three division titles, this is what I get from you? Well, fine, I’ll take my ball and go home.”
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Post#2 » by MaryvalesFinest » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:13 am

Kerr is trying to turn the Suns into the Spurs or Pistons 2.0 but he needs to remember half the Suns players don't fit that style.

Players that can play half court
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Shaq
-Boris Diaw
-Alando Tucker
-Sean Singletary
-Grant Hill
-Robin Lopez

Players that like to run
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Amare Stoudemire
-Steve Nash
-Leandro Barbosa
-Raja Bell
-Matt Barnes
-Louis Amundson
-Goran Dragic

If you look at the list of names most Suns players can't play the style Porter wants, Kerr needs to realise that D'antoni fit most of the Suns style of player. The only thing left for Kerr to do is make some major trades to get players that can play half court under Porter.
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Post#3 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:58 am

I've always said that one of the reasons wanted to come at PHX was because of D'Antoni. Yeah they could've played with Nash, STAT and Marion (back then) but it really was the coach that made players want to come. I wasn't so sure we could've netted Hill if we didn't have D'Antoni. Hill was getting to the downside of his career and the light practices really rejuvenated him. I don't think there was anybody on the team that didn't like D'Antoni and what he brought to Phoenix.

It really sucked that the relationship between the Suns organization and D'Antoni had to end the way it did. Personally, i thought the Suns were very fair in asking D'Antoni to play a bit of defense, but he was just too stubborn to do so.
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Post#4 » by rsavaj » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:13 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I've always said that one of the reasons wanted to come at PHX was because of D'Antoni. Yeah they could've played with Nash, STAT and Marion (back then) but it really was the coach that made players want to come. I wasn't so sure we could've netted Hill if we didn't have D'Antoni. Hill was getting to the downside of his career and the light practices really rejuvenated him. I don't think there was anybody on the team that didn't like D'Antoni and what he brought to Phoenix.

It really sucked that the relationship between the Suns organization and D'Antoni had to end the way it did. Personally, i thought the Suns were very fair in asking D'Antoni to play a bit of defense, but he was just too stubborn to do so.


He may not have practiced it as much as he should have, but we ranked 4th in defensive efficiency with a healthy Kurt Thomas. Given good defensive personnel(Raja in his prime, Marion, Diaw and Kurt Thomas), D'Antoni managed to coach a fine defensive unit.
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Post#5 » by Togo » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:41 am

Yep. D'Antoni wasn't perfect, but we couldn't have done any better than him.
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Post#6 » by BurningHeart » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:06 am

"<3" D'Antoni
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Post#7 » by The Diesel » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:51 am

I can't believe that some people actually wanted D'Antoni gone; the man did an amazing job while he was in Phoenix and Porter has really disappointed me.

I mean, it's really discouraging to see Porter try and fix something that wasn't broken (the offense) and to see how Raja, Nash, and Amare have publicly voiced their frustration with it.

Vinny Del Negro is doing a great job in Chicago (they just beat Utah today) and he was interviewed for the Phoenix job; I honestly would have been more comfortable with anyone other than Porter.

Kerr kept talking about how Porter's personality and head-coaching experience would command respect, yet already 3 starters are complaining about the way he is running the offense. That's commanding respect?

The only guy who seems happy is Shaq because he's getting so many damn touches.

I just wish D'Antoni was still coaching or Kerr had chosen someone else other than Porter.

The window slammed shut when D'Antoni left, not when Marion left.

Porter was supposed to keep the running game, yet the offense is really slow now because Shaq seems to get the ball on every possession. Kerr tried to convince us the offense would be the same.

The defense has barely improved; Tom Thibodeau would have been more qualified to fix the defense than Porter.

Also, I really hope Hill or Diaw start again at SF soon instead of coming off the bench. They deserve to start more than Barnes who has done NOTHING in his career to start over them.

I mean, it's another example of Porter fixing something that wasn't broken; Nash/Bell/Hill/Amare/Shaq really clicked towards the end of last season, and yet Barnes is starting ahead of one of the greatest players of all time in Hill.

I really dislike what Porter has done to the team; they probably should have just promoted Alvin Gentry as the Head Coach because he probably would have ran the same offense that D'Antoni ran and he's very well-liked.

There are SO MANY guys who I would have preferred over Porter. They are:

- Tom Thibodeau (Boston Celtics assistant coach)

- Elston Turner (Rick Adelman's lead assistant)

- Flip Saunders (Head-Coaching experience, has been to the Conference Finals FOUR times)

- Alvin Gentry (Head coaching experience, well-liked, and was D'Antoni's lead assistant)

- Vinny Del Negro; he knows the team very well since he was the assistant GM in Phoenix and he comes off as very intelligent and has done a great job in Chicago so far.

- Mike Budenholzer (Popovich's lead assistant)

Porter was really my last choice and I feel he was only chosen because of his friendship with Kerr. He was never even a candidate for any of the other job openings.

Overall, I really wanted D'Antoni to stay, and I really didn't want Porter to replace him.

Unfortunately, Mike D left, Porter replaced him, and he's done NOTHING to make me feel differently about Kerr's decision to hire him.
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Post#8 » by harshey1388 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:56 am

can i say something bold and simple?

its the sports industry... trades and personnel changes happen all the time... yes d'antoni was great, but its a change thats all this industry is, changes here and there will NEVER be perfect teams so can we finally move on from this? he aint coming back so please be glad with what we have and hope things improve and our team figures it out :)
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Post#9 » by toucansma » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:09 am

The Diesel wrote:I can't believe that some people actually wanted D'Antoni gone; the man did an amazing job while he was in Phoenix and Porter has really disappointed me.

I mean, it's really discouraging to see Porter try and fix something that wasn't broken (the offense) and to see how Raja, Nash, and Amare have publicly voiced their frustration with it.

Vinny Del Negro is doing a great job in Chicago (they just beat Utah today) and he was interviewed for the Phoenix job; I honestly would have been more comfortable with anyone other than Porter.

Kerr kept talking about how Porter's personality and head-coaching experience would command respect, yet already 3 starters are complaining about the way he is running the offense. That's commanding respect?

The only guy who seems happy is Shaq because he's getting so many damn touches.

I just wish D'Antoni was still coaching or Kerr had chosen someone else other than Porter.

The window slammed shut when D'Antoni left, not when Marion left.

Porter was supposed to keep the running game, yet the offense is really slow now because Shaq seems to get the ball on every possession. Kerr tried to convince us the offense would be the same.

The defense has barely improved; Tom Thibodeau would have been more qualified to fix the defense than Porter.

Also, I really hope Hill or Diaw start again at SF soon instead of coming off the bench. They deserve to start more than Barnes who has done NOTHING in his career to start over them.

I mean, it's another example of Porter fixing something that wasn't broken; Nash/Bell/Hill/Amare/Shaq really clicked towards the end of last season, and yet Barnes is starting ahead of one of the greatest players of all time in Hill.

I really dislike what Porter has done to the team; they probably should have just promoted Alvin Gentry as the Head Coach because he probably would have ran the same offense that D'Antoni ran and he's very well-liked.

There are SO MANY guys who I would have preferred over Porter. They are:

- Tom Thibodeau (Boston Celtics assistant coach)

- Elston Turner (Rick Adelman's lead assistant)

- Flip Saunders (Head-Coaching experience, has been to the Conference Finals FOUR times)

- Alvin Gentry (Head coaching experience, well-liked, and was D'Antoni's lead assistant)

- Vinny Del Negro; he knows the team very well since he was the assistant GM in Phoenix and he comes off as very intelligent and has done a great job in Chicago so far.

- Mike Budenholzer (Popovich's lead assistant)

Porter was really my last choice and I feel he was only chosen because of his friendship with Kerr. He was never even a candidate for any of the other job openings.

Overall, I really wanted D'Antoni to stay, and I really didn't want Porter to replace him.

Unfortunately, Mike D left, Porter replaced him, and he's done NOTHING to make me feel differently about Kerr's decision to hire him.


+1 :(
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Post#10 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:58 am

As well as Vinny has done in Chi-town, Porter would've been the more suitable choice considering he does have head coaching experience. However, I would've liked Gentry to be our coach. He was well-liked, knew the team very well and being the lead assistant to MikeD, he would've worked on what we didn't do well and kept what we did do well. I think Thibodeau would've killed our offense more than Porter since he's so defensive minded. Other than that, Turner and Budenholzer would've been acceptable choices.

I too would've liked D'Antoni to stay since I really felt good going into the end of the regular season when we showed how well we played with Shaq. I had no doubts we would've been even better with a full training camp. I actually didn't want a coaching change since we were so close to a championship and now we're basically starting over again. Also despite being out-coached by Pops last playoffs (which is by no means something to feel terrible about), D'Antoni still made better coaching decisions than Porter so far.
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Post#11 » by nashill » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:09 am

i now believed that part of nash success is because of dantoni... but past is past. suns should not look back and just move on and should work more harder whatever it takes while they still have a chance to win it all this year.
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Post#12 » by The Diesel » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:16 am

I still believe, based on talent, that this team is a contender. But I have no confidence in Porter which is why I don't think the team will win it all.

If D'Antoni was still the coach or if we had a better coach, I would still have confidence.

If I was coaching, I would do the following.

- Start Hill or Diaw ahead of Barnes

- Give Amare more touches

- Stop giving Shaq so many damn touches

- Run more

Unfortunately, Porter isn't doing any of those things and it really isn't that difficult to see that those things need to be done.
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Post#13 » by nashill » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:27 am

- Start Hill or Diaw ahead of Barnes


the best line up for me

shaq
amare
hill
bell
nash

but hill had to come off the bench to lead the 2nd unit while resting shaq and nash

- Give Amare more touches


the important thing is, porter believe this also. the only thing is, how porter will figure out on how to make amare more effective. during the dantani days, most of amare touches are off the passes while in porter system, suns try to make him a post player which doesnt work so far.

the question is, will porter adjust and go back to what was effective to amare before, or will he wait for amare to get more used or be comfortable playing at the post?

Stop giving Shaq so many damn touches


read tsherkin's post on the other topic, he explained this perfectly.
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Post#14 » by rsavaj » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:37 am

I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, but we can't villify Porter so early in the season, and Del Negro hasn't impressed either as a coach so far, a few impressive victories aside.
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Post#15 » by Go7enKs » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:20 am

It's early but this team has actually regressed from the first games of the season. That's not a great sign. Not to mention the blowouts against top competition.

Also I can't understand why we are becoming a post-up isolation team on offense...We could be one of the best passing teams in the league. It's really frustrating and doesn't make any sense. I understand not wanting to run after a completed basket like Mike wanted, but that doesn't mean NOT running at all and NOT passing the ball like we used to...
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Post#16 » by nba_addict » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:12 am

Suns have been running and gunning for four years in a row and let me summarize it: two conference finals appearance, 1 semi-conference finals and 1st round exit against the spurs. In that REGRESSING order.

Playing full run and gun works in season games but not in the playoff especially that we are in western conference. There are more into winning a best of 7 series than winning as much as you can out of 82 games. Match-up series is not just about how you score and fill up the scoreboard. Forcing a single turnover is more valuable than a single rebound that you can get. Getting in the head of your opponent is more important than a single turnover that you can force. Distracting opponents offensive scheme is more important than a contested shot. Ability to score in transition is a bonus but ability score in half-court is a must (Just see how Suns got eliminated in four playoff appearances).

I still stand Porter is right in saying one stop and you can run for transition basket. Thats far better than just trying to outscore you opponent because you can space the floor better and run faster. D'Antoni is an offensive genious no doubt there but he still have lot to learn about basketball and ability to outsmart a well rounded coach.
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Post#17 » by mkot » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:28 am

nba_addict wrote:
I still stand Porter is right in saying one stop and you can run for transition basket.


Which means we need stops.

Thing is that our defense is still AWFUL.

He can say all he wants about improving the defense, I just haven't seen it.
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Post#18 » by BurningHeart » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:01 pm

nba_addict wrote:
Playing full run and gun works in season games but not in the playoff especially that we are in western conference. There are more into winning a best of 7 series than winning as much as you can out of 82 games. .



Blah blah FREAKING blah.

I am so SICK of hearing this line of thinking. SO SICK OF IT. We got to the Western Conference Finals the FIRST year D'Antoni was there. The idea was new, and no one expected it. We had some injury issues, and just ran into a better team at the end with the Spurs. Even then, it was by FAR the closest 4-1 series have ever seen in my life. Don't believe me? Go look at the recaps and box scores. Look at the leads we held in the fourth quarter. We didn't lose that because of our offensive style, we lost that because of inexperience. Not to mention Joe Johnson going down in the Western Semis.

The next year? Amare down ALL YEAR. Kurt Thomas DOWN IN JANUARY. We got down 3-1 to the Lakers. We came back and beat them in what is to this day one of the best playoff series I have ever seen in my life. What happened in Game 7? We ran them out of the freakin' gym. I seem to recall when we were down 3-1, people talking about how the Suns were a one trick pony, how defense wins championships, how their offense means nothing, blah blah blah. Look what happened. Next up? The Clippers. We were supposed to get demolished here, too. Elton Brand and Chris Kaman is just too much for us to handle. Too much for Boris and Timmy Thomas. What happened? We won in seven. We beat them by TWENTY in Game 7. What's next? We play Dallas. Raja gets hurt in Game 1, rendered useless the rest of the playoffs. As I seem to recall, that left us with SIX players to work with. And we STILL pushed them to six games, and could have freakin' easily pushed it to 7, had we held onto the huge lead we amassed in the first quarter of Game 6.

The NEXT YEAR? Well, we all know what happened here. We play the Spurs. Steve Nash gets hurt in Game 1, comes back in and hits a huge three but has to leave because our medical staff is incompetent. Game 3 was the absolute WORST officiated game I've ever watched in my life, Game 6 2002 WCF included. Oh yeah, who refereed that game? Tim **** Donaghy. You remember him? The guy who got convicted for corruption and mob ties? And do I have to get into what happened at the end of Game 4? And screw that, in Game 5, we led the whole freakin' game except for that dirty douchebag Bruce Bowen hitting a corner three with thirty seconds to go.

For those of you who don't get it:

LAST YEAR WAS THE ONLY YEAR WE LOST ON OUR OWN MERITS.

I don't see what's so freakin' hard to understand about this concept.

You don't change what this team does, I don't care what anyone says. You don't bring in a fat tub of lard and trade the glue of our team to get him. You don't get rid of a coach who "only preaches offense" when he's proven to be successful and proven to be an awesome coach in terms of managing players, managing practices, and on-the-court product. You have a overstated "deficiency" in defense? Fine. Nevermind the fact that in 2006, we were one of the top defenses before Kurt Thomas got hurt.

DEFENSE was NOT our problem. Rebounding was. Get a REBOUNDER, not Shaq.

I can go on and on. Some may call these excuses, I call them the truth. The system never failed. Three of four years, we had circumstances WAY beyond our control. The fourth year was all on the players, not even the coaching. I don't ever want to hear the idea that running doesn't win. D'Antoni put us in GREAT position to capitalize on our style, on our strengths, on our personnel.

You have this confused, doddering douchebag in Steve Kerr coming in here thinking he knows anything about building a team and this is what you get. You have a guy who is a businessman first (and I can't blame him) owning a team rather than the Colangelo's who would do most anything to win, and this is what you get.

If getting rid of all the picks and players wasn't the nail in the coffin, if Bryan Colangelo leaving wasn't the nail in the coffin, if Robert Sarver wasn't taking over the nail in the coffin, if getting rid of Shawn Marion wasn't the nail in the coffin, then Mike D'Antoni being pushed out the door was the certain death knell of this team and franchise.

Porter, Kerr, and Sarver have STRIPPED the identity of the Suns. We have ALWAYS been the high-octane offense, flashy, yet always-in-the-hunt. They have stripped us of the utilization of the best duo in the league, Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. Where is the pick n' roll? Where is the utilization of Nash's greatest strength? Why isn't he running, driving, dishing? Why isn't he pulling up for threes off the break? Before, other teams would have to marginalize his effect. Now they dont have to do that, because we're doing it on our own. Where's the rotation when we DO dump it into that fatso down low? How come Amare's not getting touches? Marginalizing Amare too? The guy is 25 years old, and his career looks like it's going to be wasted much like LaDainian Tomlinson's is by Norv Turner in San Diego. He tries to "make the most" of his opportunities, but we're not giving it to him where he can do it best.

It all seems so ridiculous to me.
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Re:  

Post#19 » by nba_addict » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:16 pm

It will take time. Im not saying it will surely happen but adjustment will take time especially for a new coach. 14 games is not a good measure since we really havent had a complete line up playing since and Porter alloted lots of playing time to the rookies. Lets wait until end of December to reassess. What I can see as of now is not a genious coach but rather someone who knows what it takes in the end battle. I just hope he has all the tools in his pocket.
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Post#20 » by scootfu602 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:39 pm

The Diesel wrote:I can't believe that some people actually wanted D'Antoni gone; the man did an amazing job while he was in Phoenix and Porter has really disappointed me.

I mean, it's really discouraging to see Porter try and fix something that wasn't broken (the offense) and to see how Raja, Nash, and Amare have publicly voiced their frustration with it.

Vinny Del Negro is doing a great job in Chicago (they just beat Utah today) and he was interviewed for the Phoenix job; I honestly would have been more comfortable with anyone other than Porter.

Kerr kept talking about how Porter's personality and head-coaching experience would command respect, yet already 3 starters are complaining about the way he is running the offense. That's commanding respect?

The only guy who seems happy is Shaq because he's getting so many damn touches.

I just wish D'Antoni was still coaching or Kerr had chosen someone else other than Porter.

The window slammed shut when D'Antoni left, not when Marion left.

Porter was supposed to keep the running game, yet the offense is really slow now because Shaq seems to get the ball on every possession. Kerr tried to convince us the offense would be the same.

The defense has barely improved; Tom Thibodeau would have been more qualified to fix the defense than Porter.

Also, I really hope Hill or Diaw start again at SF soon instead of coming off the bench. They deserve to start more than Barnes who has done NOTHING in his career to start over them.

I mean, it's another example of Porter fixing something that wasn't broken; Nash/Bell/Hill/Amare/Shaq really clicked towards the end of last season, and yet Barnes is starting ahead of one of the greatest players of all time in Hill.

I really dislike what Porter has done to the team; they probably should have just promoted Alvin Gentry as the Head Coach because he probably would have ran the same offense that D'Antoni ran and he's very well-liked.

There are SO MANY guys who I would have preferred over Porter. They are:

- Tom Thibodeau (Boston Celtics assistant coach)

- Elston Turner (Rick Adelman's lead assistant)

- Flip Saunders (Head-Coaching experience, has been to the Conference Finals FOUR times)

- Alvin Gentry (Head coaching experience, well-liked, and was D'Antoni's lead assistant)

- Vinny Del Negro; he knows the team very well since he was the assistant GM in Phoenix and he comes off as very intelligent and has done a great job in Chicago so far.

- Mike Budenholzer (Popovich's lead assistant)

Porter was really my last choice and I feel he was only chosen because of his friendship with Kerr. He was never even a candidate for any of the other job openings.

Overall, I really wanted D'Antoni to stay, and I really didn't want Porter to replace him.

Unfortunately, Mike D left, Porter replaced him, and he's done NOTHING to make me feel differently about Kerr's decision to hire him.


I agree with virtually this whole post, except the starting Hill and Diaw part. I don't believe Banres got the nod because he has done more in his career (which he obviously has not) than Hill. I think this was more the mind set of having somebody that IS starter caliber come off the bench to keep things going. I think the Spurs made this trend popular by bringing Ginobili off the bench. Now the Lakers have Odom coming off the bench, there is no way Radmonowhatever is a starter over Odom in any other circumstance. That is just how I read into the Barnes starting over Hill.

nashill wrote:

Stop giving Shaq so many damn touches


read tsherkin's post on the other topic, he explained this perfectly.

Where can I find this read? tsherkin always has good insight

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