Realgm's Top 25 most valuable players

Wasp · Post #41 » by **Wasp** » Thu Dec 4, 2008 9:58 am

Oden is way too high

shrink · Post #42 » by **shrink** » Fri Dec 5, 2008 4:36 pm

Hey dcash .. do you know where to find the thread we did previously on this?

I'd be curious to see how that stacks up to this, and to see who the big movers were.

old rem · Post #43 » by **old rem** » Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:42 pm

stopnpop wrote:
dcash4 wrote:i think youth was overrated just a tad. i'd probably take rose, oden, roy, jefferson and stick them all behind dirk, bumping everyone else up.

agree...i think jefferson is really overrated...hes no mvp...he takes 18.5 shots a game(5th most, most by an interior player) for 22 points thats crap...overrated on D...Amare is way too high...on that team Nash is the mvp..the team and Amare look bad w/o him...Bynum but no gasol...thats fishy to me....Nash not being on the list at all is a joke...as is having Rose, Oden, Durrant on the list...this list is not who is good, or will be mvp worthy...its mvps now[/quote

I believe it's supposed to be based on current trade value, which is why some of the older and better players are ranked lower. Nash's age, or KG's naturally goes against them. Real world....Howard would be #2 just due to the difficulty getting the cream of the big man/C crop.

If you were picking a Dream Team to play a few games...the rankings are a lot different. Oden and Rose and some others drop off the list.

Hiphophead101 · Post #44 » by **Hiphophead101** » Sat Dec 6, 2008 1:27 am

KD above Granger and Harris? Crazy. From Seattle, and I dont see it that way. Kevin is a stud, dont get me wrong. But Granger and Harris better IMO.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #45 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 1:38 am

I wouldn't even put Melo on this list to be honest. Plenty of people in the NBA can score, when he starts to play defense, then put him on the list. As of now, all those other players, who score and play defense, should be above him.

vincecarter4pres · Post #46 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 1:57 am

DGrangeRx33 wrote:I wouldn't even put Melo on this list to be honest. Plenty of people in the NBA can score, when he starts to play defense, then put him on the list. As of now, all those other players, who score and play defense, should be above him.

Like a third of this list doesn't play much defense, so why single out Melo?
He absolutely belongs on this list.
I am not even a big Melo fan and it is because of his childish, wannabee thug mentality, but I cannot deny him his due if I am to honestly call myself unbiased.
Even though his attitude and personality have to be held in account to his trade value, his skills just outweigh that.
It also irks me that his D is horrific, but again, his all around game is beastly.

Once again, I feel the need to say, Kevin Durant in no way belongs on this list at all.

Roger Murdock · Post #47 » by **Roger Murdock** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 2:17 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
DGrangeRx33 wrote:I wouldn't even put Melo on this list to be honest. Plenty of people in the NBA can score, when he starts to play defense, then put him on the list. As of now, all those other players, who score and play defense, should be above him.

Like a third of this list doesn't play much defense, so why single out Melo?
He absolutely belongs on this list.
I am not even a big Melo fan and it is because of his childish, wannabee thug mentality, but I cannot deny him his due if I am to honestly call myself unbiased.
Even though his attitude and personality have to be held in account to his trade value, his skills just outweigh that.
It also irks me that his D is horrific, but again, his all around game is beastly.

Once again, I feel the need to say, Kevin Durant in no way belongs on this list at all.

I disagree with you about Durant. The guy is younger than Bynum and is a better player as well. He absolutely deserves a spot on there.

On to the list: the top 11 looks good, but I would flip flop Amare and Duncan. Harris definatly deserves to be higher, Carmello maybe a few spots higher as well.
I would drop pierce and Bynum and add Beasley and Mayo.

vincecarter4pres · Post #48 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 5:11 am

Roger Murdock wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
DGrangeRx33 wrote:Once again, I feel the need to say, Kevin Durant in no way belongs on this list at all.

I disagree with you about Durant. The guy is younger than Bynum and is a better player as well. He absolutely deserves a spot on there.

On to the list: the top 11 looks good, but I would flip flop Amare and Duncan. Harris definatly deserves to be higher, Carmello maybe a few spots higher as well.
I would drop pierce and Bynum and add Beasley and Mayo.

If Durant is on there, shouldn't Rudy Gay as well?

Hell, Pau Gasol, Jose Calderon, LMA, TJ Ford, Al Horford, Caron Butler, OJ Mayo, Chauncy Billups Kevin Martin, David West and Josh Howard didn't even make the list, yet Durant did and to me that is a little crazy.

Not to make too big of an assumption, but I have a feeling a lot of the people voting are very young and have a scorers mentality when it comes to their view of the game of basketball.
Scoring wings just aren't that important compared to PGs and big men.
The really important wings are exceptional all-around players as well as great scorers.
I don't see that potential in Durant.
And at this point and more than likely in the future, I take Kevin Martin over Durant any day of the week, and he didin't even make this list and I think that was the correct ranking for Martin.
I read comments like "ask any actual GM of a NBA team and they will all tell you they wouldn't do a Kevin Martin for Devin Harris trade, straight up". They were saying the Kings would shoot it down with ease and this exact comment was made by 2 or 3 different posters.

Take it for what you will.
This list came out decent, but I think there is a common misconception as to what is really important when building a team and yes, I am taking ticket sales into consideration as well.

JES12 · Post #49 » by **JES12** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 5:15 am

vincecarter4pres and I are on the exact same page. And that one person who said 2-way players should be higher on the list....totally agree with that too (basis for Harris >> Parker). Same with Butler, Josh Smith, Horford, etc. Howard's trade value has been tarnished, but that does not bother Dallas at as they are not trading him anyways.

JES12 · Post #50 » by **JES12** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 5:16 am

Hell, I think with 2009 and 2010 coming around, Wally Sczerbiak has a lot of trade value too.

Post #51 » by **dockingsched** » Sun Dec 7, 2008 3:46 pm

Roger Murdock wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
DGrangeRx33 wrote:I wouldn't even put Melo on this list to be honest. Plenty of people in the NBA can score, when he starts to play defense, then put him on the list. As of now, all those other players, who score and play defense, should be above him.

Like a third of this list doesn't play much defense, so why single out Melo?
He absolutely belongs on this list.
I am not even a big Melo fan and it is because of his childish, wannabee thug mentality, but I cannot deny him his due if I am to honestly call myself unbiased.
Even though his attitude and personality have to be held in account to his trade value, his skills just outweigh that.
It also irks me that his D is horrific, but again, his all around game is beastly.

Once again, I feel the need to say, Kevin Durant in no way belongs on this list at all.

I disagree with you about Durant. The guy is younger than Bynum and is a better player as well. He absolutely deserves a spot on there.

On to the list: the top 11 looks good, but I would flip flop Amare and Duncan. Harris definatly deserves to be higher, Carmello maybe a few spots higher as well.
I would drop pierce and Bynum and add Beasley and Mayo.

really? and mayo/beasley over bynum? why?

Krapinsky · Post #52 » by **Krapinsky** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 1:42 am

Pretty good list. I would only argue Amare, Oden, and Roy are a little to high.

Roger Murdock · Post #53 » by **Roger Murdock** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:02 pm

I just dont see Bynum having this amazing potential that everyone else does. He is a good and very efficient player. He is not a first option on a team, though an ideal second best player, and third scorer. I could never see him being the best player on a team that makes the playoffs. He has already been in the league for 4 years now and has been far from dominant. Hes a great defender and rebounder, but you can get that from lots of bigs. I would much rather have a guy like Beasley / Mayo / Durant, who I think can carry an offense as a first options on really good teams, and who I think have potential to develop more than Bynum does in other areas of the game. I simply dont think hes going to suddenly turn into an amazing scorer someday. Plus add into the fact that Bynum is going to land a completly undeserved albatross contract in the 80+ million range very soon. I dont consider a 13/9 bigman worthy of 15 million a year, when I can get a 20 / 4 / 3 guy for a third the price. Throw in the fact he missed a season on an injury that was supposed to take about a month to return from, and I am afraid. I would rather not have bynum on my roster than pay him 15 million a season, and I think that speaks alot about his value.

And dont give me the whole "But bigs dominate the NBA". I know its true, but there has never been a big as mediocre as Bynum who has dominate the league. All of the dominant bigs such as Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, etc were much better at 21.

Dr Aki · Post #54 » by **Dr Aki** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 10:08 pm

anyone notice that everyone but the lakers are in their white uni's??

Post #55 » by **dockingsched** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 11:47 pm

shrink wrote:Hey dcash .. do you know where to find the thread we did previously on this?

I'd be curious to see how that stacks up to this, and to see who the big movers were.

whoops, skipped over this. couldn't find anything.

vincecarter4pres · Post #56 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Tue Dec 9, 2008 12:02 am

Roger Murdock wrote:I just dont see Bynum having this amazing potential that everyone else does. He is a good and very efficient player. He is not a first option on a team, though an ideal second best player, and third scorer. I could never see him being the best player on a team that makes the playoffs. He has already been in the league for 4 years now and has been far from dominant. Hes a great defender and rebounder, but you can get that from lots of bigs. I would much rather have a guy like Beasley / Mayo / Durant, who I think can carry an offense as a first options on really good teams, and who I think have potential to develop more than Bynum does in other areas of the game. I simply dont think hes going to suddenly turn into an amazing scorer someday. Plus add into the fact that Bynum is going to land a completly undeserved albatross contract in the 80+ million range very soon. I dont consider a 13/9 bigman worthy of 15 million a year, when I can get a 20 / 4 / 3 guy for a third the price. Throw in the fact he missed a season on an injury that was supposed to take about a month to return from, and I am afraid. I would rather not have bynum on my roster than pay him 15 million a season, and I think that speaks alot about his value.

And dont give me the whole "But bigs dominate the NBA". I know its true, but there has never been a big as mediocre as Bynum who has dominate the league. All of the dominant bigs such as Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, etc were much better at 21.

I have even called myself out on the fact I voted for Bynum early and he has already signed this extension you speak of.
The thing is, on top of the fact Bynum is a really good defender, shot blocker and rebounder, he is developing a very nice low post game and is a very solid passer out of the post with good court vision and BBIQ, especially for a center.
Add to that, the fact that even if he has been in the league for 4 years, he was coming right out of highschool and that has a lot of bearing.
He is also the 3rd option behing a HOFer, Kobe Bryant and a really good scorer in Pay Gasol.
They just don't go to him that much and if he was on a different team he would be a featured option and easily average 18 a game efficiently, while creating space on the floor and scoring opportunities around him when double teams come, freeing up shooters and opening the lane for slashers.
He has put on a lot of bulk, basically all in the form of muscle, proportioned well, so hopefully it won't stress his knees too much.
He also seems to have a good work ethic and the desire to improve, but we will see if that had more to do with his quest for a big contract extension.
He has all the tools to be truly dominant down the road when Kobe is truly fading, we will see 1st hand if he embraces this role or becomes a bum that played for a big payday.
The injury concern definitely scares me as well though.

Post #57 » by **dockingsched** » Tue Dec 9, 2008 12:17 am

bynum is at 17/9/63fg% so far this month (4 games)

he's at 16/9/62fg% since the lakers lost to detroit (11 games)

he's getting into pre injury form a lot faster than lakers fans anticipated.

people look at his 13/9 avg and think he's not playing a big role but thats just cause his first 8 games were used to get back into shape.

compare the 11 games stats i just posted to his first 8 games: 9.9 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 42.4fg%

he's improving, fast.

Roger Murdock · Post #58 » by **Roger Murdock** » Tue Dec 9, 2008 2:30 am

I will admit that I havent been able to watch him much this year.

I value your guys opinions, so what do you think he would be able to accomplish this year, if he was made a more primary focus of the team? What type of numbers? Do you guys really feel he will be able to be a number 1 option on a team? A 20+ point scorer in his prime?

I have always gotten the impression from the few times I have watched him that he is a good passer, post scorer, rebounder, etc, but wasnt someone who could do it all game long. Maybe i need to see more of him?

vincecarter4pres · Post #59 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Tue Dec 9, 2008 5:14 am

IMO, he has all the tools to be a #1 option on a different team.
He could be someone you run maybe 30-40% of your offense through out of the post easily.
Probably a rather efficient 20+ ppg 12rpg guy.

I still feel the top 5 centers in the league in about 4 years will include Bynum, Oden and Brook Lopez in addition to Dwight and the 5th will be one of the 2nd tier guys like Bogut, Nene, Hawes, etc that has stepped his game up to become top tier.

raleigh · Post #60 » by **raleigh** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:00 pm

JES12 wrote:I think Roy right now > Joe Johnson

Roy is very clutch and very much more fit to be a leader of a team. I don't know if i can say that about Joe Johnson. And I could almost guarantee that JJ would not get Roy-like numbers in Portland. Right now their numbers are similar..identical if you take the 3 min diff off.

LOL. JJ has proven himself as one of the clutchest players in the game.

Ice...in...his...veins. I agree with the poster who said that Roy's ceiling is Joe Johnson.