Long Term Plan? (merged threads)

[fishercob]

Funny, thats' the the wiz'nasty strategy: when you're getting your tail kicked, just declare victory and move on.

Maybe he's Dick Cheney.

[crackhed]

didnt wanna open a new thread, but does anyone like sam mitchell?

[Benjammin]

didnt wanna open a new thread, but does anyone like sam mitchell?

I'm sure he's a heck of a nice guy, although I've never met him. Oh, you mean as a coach, I think I would pass.

[dobrojim]

i was surprised to see he got canned. It's not like TOR had only won 1-2 games.
Should they be better? Maybe so. We'll see how the new coach does.

as far as bringing him here, nah.

[BruceO]

toronto fans were excited when eddie got fired. They must have felt that Sam mitchell was underutilizing what they have up there in toronto. Looking forward to his getting fired. I think also e has bargagni or had him in the dog house.
Wouldn't it be funny to see Eddie Jordan up there? Funnier is if he does well which isn't unrealistic. I'm just waiting for potential thibbs sighting next year

[LyricalRico]

didnt wanna open a new thread, but does anyone like sam mitchell?

I'd rather have EJ than Sam Mitchell.

Think about that.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

didnt wanna open a new thread, but does anyone like sam mitchell?

I'd rather have EJ than Sam Mitchell.

Think about that.

I'd rather have Wes Unseld than Sam Mitchell.

Think about THAT

[Wizards2Lottery]

Nah Mitchell wasn't Wes bad.

but he belongs in the Eddie Jordan breed where he has no clue on how to manage fourth quarter games and rotations.

[nate33]

I thought Wes was a pretty decent coach. He kept a terrible team fairly competitive. Wes was awful as a GM but his coaching wasn't bad.

[mhd]

Wes was a good coach. He NEVER had any talent here. Any other coach would have been the worst team in the league. Wes was around the 5th worst.

[BruceO]

Etan Thomas
Salary: $6,864,200 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 3.7 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.2 PER: 10.70
Photo: Caron Butler
Caron Butler
Salary: $9,249,980 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.3 REB: 6.6 AST: 4.2 PER: 21.20

Outgoing Players: Rudy Fernandez, Nicolas Batum, Raef LaFrentz, Travis Outlaw


Rudy Fernandez
Salary: $1,084,080 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.6 REB: 2.8 AST: 2.0 PER: 18.35
Photo: Nicolas Batum
Nicolas Batum
Salary: $1,040,640 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 5.8 REB: 2.7 AST: 1.1 PER: 15.44
Photo: Raef LaFrentz
Raef LaFrentz
Salary: $12,722,500 Years Remaining: 1
Photo: Travis Outlaw
Travis Outlaw
Salary: $4,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.1 REB: 4.1 AST: 1.4 PER: 14.13

Outgoing Players: Etan Thomas, Caron Butl

[Kanyewest]

John Stockton is a good defender because he was dirty player. I guess that made up for his lack of height/wingspan/bowed legs.

[doclinkin]

Stockton was a good defender because he wanted to be/worked hard at it/hated to lose more than he wanted to win or look good. And because he was a supremely well-conditioned athlete. He was a superlative defender because he saw the court better than anybody else.

Wingspan and natural athleticism help a ton, they mean you don't have to work quite as hard year-round. Just saying: no point discounting inclination, IQ, and good fundamentally sound defensive principles.

The Wiz starters lack some length/quix to compete defensively at the highest level, when they succeed it's because they outwork/outhustle the competitors (and because Brendan plays well). It's just tough to sustain that kind of effort for 82 games (much less 365 days of conditioning) especially with a shallow/unreliable bench (last year). Fatigue- and stress-related injuries build up, wear the players down, and defense tends to trail off late-year.

Problem is compounded when there are some basic defensive fundamental principles that are ignored (keep your hands up/active to cut off space/vision; keep your knees bent for a wider base/better lateral shift/stronger foundation on the blocks/longer distance for an opponent to drive around outside; stay balanced on the balls of your feet for quicker reaction speed). Some of these are harder than others. It's pretty easy to remember to keep your hands up though.

Over the long haul, we're pretty huge as the bench matures and can earn time on court. ETap shuffling the starters with bench players will help all involved and will help the youngsters as they are ready to graduate into starting roles since they will have played with todays principles and principals. A defensively oriented coach (Tom Tippytoe et al) will probably try to swap out one of Caron or Jamison, unless some player is ready to graduate to PF and Jamison is able to play heavy minutes off the bench. And Nick Young grows up defensively into the starting/finishing line-up.

An offensively minded coach will try to find some way to keep them both (CB, Twan) on court as much as possible. A few small tweaks of technique and tendency can still hide some of our defensive problems. I still think the team hasn't reached it's defensive peak-- though the drop-off of Daniels and Stevenson is killing us and both need to rest, play off the bench. We have some great length and potential in our back-ups, even counting Opec as a possible write-off. As the puppies mature we get pretty tough.

As for coaching, on balance I think we probably do have enough offensive talent that we could bear a defensive coach to drill basics. Though they tend not to last with a team/piss off players. Sloan/Pop excepted. And we'd probably see real roster swaps; start over.

I'm curious to see what we look like with Gil and Haywood back. And the addition of a high draft pick can definitely make all the difference in the world. Longterm: I say we ride it out, see what happens, pick up the pingpong balls, let the role-player vets rest some, develop puppies, see the transition with returning starters, re-evaluate in the offseason, hire a coach, pick our draftees, make a key swap or two in summer to refine the team towards the new coach's playing style. Depending on how the team plays when all are back (knock wood) we'll see which players fit best in what style and will know what direction to go.

But record notwithstanding, we've got some good pieces.

[BruceO]

Can i get constructive criticism on this trade? The numbers work and we get rid of Etan. I've had a few comments here where all people say is you lose! But I want to see what the actual opinion is on this trade.

Etan Thomas
Salary: $6,864,200 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 3.7 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.2 PER: 10.70
Photo: Caron Butler
Caron Butler
Salary: $9,249,980 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.3 REB: 6.6 AST: 4.2 PER: 21.20

Outgoing Players: Rudy Fernandez, Nicolas Batum, Raef LaFrentz, Travis Outlaw


Rudy Fernandez
Salary: $1,084,080 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.6 REB: 2.8 AST: 2.0 PER: 18.35
Photo: Nicolas Batum
Nicolas Batum
Salary: $1,040,640 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 5.8 REB: 2.7 AST: 1.1 PER: 15.44
Photo: Raef LaFrentz
Raef LaFrentz
Salary: $12,722,500 Years Remaining: 1
Photo: Travis Outlaw
Travis Outlaw
Salary: $4,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.1 REB: 4.1 AST: 1.4 PER: 14.13

Outgoing Players: Etan Thomas, Caron Butler

Granted we are giving away caron but you have to give value to get value. This trade is just hypothetical. I'm bringing it up because it brings a healthy discussion of how much value do we see in caron. How much value do others see in him. What kind of good young players can we get theoretically? How good do we think Rudy, Batum and Outlaw are as well. I shot this trade at blazer fans and they all think it's an insanely bad deal for them. I think we would be suckering them, it's not an entirely bad deal for them cause they solidify their starting lineup. The consensus is Blazer fans think Rudy is too good to give him up for Caron. I think so too. But he can't remain a sixth man behind Roy indefinitely IMO. I think he can be as good as Manu or better if he's not already

[yungal07]

No thank you to quantity for quality trades.

And LOL at Rudy being too good to trade for Caron. Rudy can't hold Caron's jock. Shoot, Rudy's numbers aren't that much better than Nick Young's numbers per minute if at all. He's a good player, but he's not worth trading our best player for (until we know for sure Gilbert is healthy, Caron's our best).

[WizarDynasty]

get rid of the ex'bench players while you can..unless you have a bench player that can cover their weakness...and right now mcquire is way to slow to keep up with guard to ever deserve playing time at the 3 spot. Caron and Jamison give you empty points. they shoot a low percentage and score points...but give up way more points that they score.
You can't build around a player who gives up more points than they score...these two players drain defensive moral from your other players. they say to themselves, "what's the point?". At least with Jamison, you have blatche at p/f--but with caron...--nothing at all--dominic has no hope whatso ever and getting faster and being able to prevent dribble penetration. He is just as slow as caron and weaker.

[BruceO]

No thank you to quantity for quality trades.

And LOL at Rudy being too good to trade for Caron. Rudy can't hold Caron's jock. Shoot, Rudy's numbers aren't that much better than Nick Young's numbers per minute if at all. He's a good player, but he's not worth trading our best player for (until we know for sure Gilbert is healthy, Caron's our best).

Do you watch Rudy play? He's obviously being held back. He's better than Nick Young at this point. I'm asking portland fans now in their forum. None seems to excited to give up Rudy. Others point blank refuse and I don't blame them. Would you trade manu and some extras for Caron? I wouldn't. Manu is more of a pure player for his position where Caron isn't. Rudy's current numbers don't reflect how good he can be and he's playing half the minutes Caron is and doesn't require the ball in his hands as often as Caron does. Besides, do you think Caron is our small forward future with Lebron going to be in the east for a long time to come? If yes, fine. Then we will continue to hide Caron on defense. The best thing to do is make him play the 2 guard. Rudy's going to be on that B Roy tier. A tier below Wade and Kobe. We would solidify our guard rotation, get a good backup SF in batum, get the clutch Outlaw, get rid of Etan and have a chance to add in the draft another SF who can contribute and judging from recent draft history with Thad Young, Al Thornton, danny Granger, travis outlaw, Wilson Chandler etc. there will be SF's who can contribute.

[WizarDynasty]

Can i get constructive criticism on this trade? The numbers work and we get rid of Etan. I've had a few comments here where all people say is you lose! But I want to see what the actual opinion is on this trade.

Etan Thomas
Salary: $6,864,200 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 3.7 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.2 PER: 10.70
Photo: Caron Butler
Caron Butler
Salary: $9,249,980 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.3 REB: 6.6 AST: 4.2 PER: 21.20

Outgoing Players: Rudy Fernandez, Nicolas Batum, Raef LaFrentz, Travis Outlaw


Rudy Fernandez
Salary: $1,084,080 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.6 REB: 2.8 AST: 2.0 PER: 18.35
Photo: Nicolas Batum
Nicolas Batum
Salary: $1,040,640 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 5.8 REB: 2.7 AST: 1.1 PER: 15.44
Photo: Raef LaFrentz
Raef LaFrentz
Salary: $12,722,500 Years Remaining: 1
Photo: Travis Outlaw
Travis Outlaw
Salary: $4,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.1 REB: 4.1 AST: 1.4 PER: 14.13

Outgoing Players: Etan Thomas, Caron Butler

Granted we are giving away caron but you have to give value to get value. This trade is just hypothetical. I'm bringing it up because it brings a healthy discussion of how much value do we see in caron. How much value do others see in him. What kind of good young players can we get theoretically? How good do we think Rudy, Batum and Outlaw are as well. I shot this trade at blazer fans and they all think it's an insanely bad deal for them. I think we would be suckering them, it's not an entirely bad deal for them cause they solidify their starting lineup. The consensus is Blazer fans think Rudy is too good to give him up for Caron. I think so too. But he can't remain a sixth man behind Roy indefinitely IMO. I think he can be as good as Manu or better if he's not already

our gm doesn't have the gonads to pull a trade like that off. caron's lane agility is 12.15--aka lateral acceleration--dominic's is 10.95 yet..you would think that dominic could stop most guard penetration...Caron had one of the worst lane agility coming into the league so you should never have expected much perimeter defense from him in the first place. I assume Grunfeld knew this and thought dominic's 10.95 lane agility would have made him a monster on the perimeter like jared was. I guess that's why EJ was fired.

Dominic McGuire - 2007 6' 7.75" 6' 8.25" 220 6' 10.5" 8' 8" 4.7 28.5 34.5 12 10.95 3.25 20 47
Caron Butler - 2002 6' 5.25" 6' 6.5" 222 6' 11.5" 8' 7.5" NA 27.0 31.0 2 12.15 3.33 68 10
Jared Jeffires - 2002 6' 10" NA' NA" 230 7' 0.5" 9' 1" NA 26.0 30.0 9 11.73 3.40 63 11

based on these number jared had faster lateral acceleration than caron butler yet grunfeld thought caron would be better defensively even thought he gave up nearly 5 inches in standing reach when trying to affect an opponents shot on the perimeter.
even carmelo anthony..a p/f slash s/f had better lateral acceleration that caron butler. That is really bad when you want caron to play sg.
Carmelo Anthony - 2003 6' 6.25" 6' 7.5" 233 7' 0" 8' 9.5" 8.0 30.5 33.5 7 11.40 3.15 38 3
His 12.15 lane agility really shows when you watch caron not be able to beat people going side ways and getting charges, caron really hurts you when handling the ball because of his tremendous lack of agility.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... s=3&sort=1

[BruceO]

yeah, I don't know if I'm the only one seeing this but I've been seeing alot of jump shooting coming from him. One on one with a good defender he couldnt get past his man. Batum defended him really well. Even through screens they could go under it not worried about him blowing past them and getting to the hoop suddenly. Infact forays to the hoop have been on the wing from most I recall

[doclinkin]

our gm doesn't have the gonads to pull a trade like that off. caron's lane agility is 12.15--aka lateral acceleration--dominic's is 10.95 ....[and similar jibber jabber]....

A long minute ago you were complaining 'too bad there's no measure of lateral quickness' and now after I told ya, you've become the apostle of lane agility?

But somehow everybody else is the idiot... There's a saying in my family "It's always the thief who shouts he's been robbed" if he misplaces his glasses or whatever. An innocent man assumes he's simply lost his shxt. Ernie ain't the moron, consider maybe you've just lost your shxt.

When it comes to this issue: you're gonna take the lane agility drill of Caron from when he was coming out of college, where he played power forward half the time, and at a combine when he was sorta pudgy from playing with bulk in the post, had an ankle injury if I recall it right-- then you're gonna use that for his lifetime limit on his speed, swiftness etc. When he's spent two offseasons getting into 'the best shape of his life'.

For real you have to get off the 'physical stat crack'. Caron Butler is an allstar because kid is a baller, he has powerful BBall IQ and remarkable size for strength ratio. Anytime you start to assess Jared Jeffries as a better player than CB3 --for whatever reason-- you have to shxtcan that measurement and start over. The anthropometrics etc hint towards a players ability, provide a range of potential, but rarely prove the limit of a player's ability. 'Size of the fight in the dog' gots to be taken account for.

(Also, in the interest of education: the lane agility drill ain't just lateral quix. It's a 'box run'. Start at the elbow extended, sprint to the baseline, shuffle to the cone, backpedal to elbow extended, shuffle to the start cone, then reverse. Wait a sec..... okay here's a link with a vid)