Anyone else think we're Running too much?

[Chubby Chaser]

If you watch our games we are pretty much a running high tempo team. We push the ball a lot and we get a lot of easy baskets in transition. This does wonders for our offense as we have one of the most potent offenses in the league, but this also negatively affects our defense. We rarely walk the ball up anymore and calm down the offense and pass the ball and meticulously work through the options in the triangle offense. Although the up tempo is entertaining, I still prefer the tempo and style we played during the Kobe and Shaq era. Where we walked the ball up, and slowly pounded the ball inside and out and picked our teams apart. When we push the ball this leads to more possessions for our opponents, and for easier transition buckets for them also; which exposes our horrible transition defense. We're not doing our defense any favors by pushing the ball. Would you guys like to see us slow it down a bit and play a more traditional half court triangle offense? Just a thought, because I would.

[fareweatherfan]

Insightful post.

I agree with what you are saying generally. However, I'd argue not that we need to slow it down in general, but that we need to get back to being disciplined about our decisions to push it. We have an extremely talented team (arguably one of the most talented rosters ever), but that gets in the way of execution far too often.

For me it starts with our leader, Kobe. I see him force the issue and turn the ball over way too much, and other guys follow suit.

The good news, I'm not worried one bit. We exercised superb judgement in this regard last post season, and I am confident we can do so when needed. I'd like to see us do it all the time, but I'll take doing it when it matters (as long as it doesn't become too much of an issue).

[Chubby Chaser]

Insightful post.

I agree with what you are saying generally. However, I'd argue not that we need to slow it down in general, but that we need to get back to being disciplined about our decisions to push it. We have an extremely talented team (arguably one of the most talented rosters ever), but that gets in the way of execution far too often.

For me it starts with our leader, Kobe. I see him force the issue and turn the ball over way too much, and other guys follow suit.

The good news, I'm not worried one bit. We exercised superb judgement in this regard last post season, and I am confident we can do so when needed. I'd like to see us do it all the time, but I'll take doing it when it matters (as long as it doesn't become too much of an issue).

Bingo! I think you hit the nail right on the head. We need to be more disciplined in when to push the ball and when to slow it down. During our run with Kobe and Shaq, we would run with the ball, but we would also know when we would need to slow it down and run the triangle. If it was getting frantic and we missed the last two shots I would remember us just getting the rebound, and Harper or Fish would grab the ball and kind of walk the ball up court slowly. Everyone would be on the same page, and we would set up our offense and pound the ball inside to Shaq to try and re collect our offense that became frantic the previous two possessions. I don't see that type of game control in this team this year. It's almost as if the players "know" that we are better than the other teams and we can go out there and just score on them at will. So we try to almost shove it down their throats every time we get the ball. You blame Kobe, I blame Fish. He's supposed to be the calming force on this team that is supposed to know when to say, "Ok, we've pushed it the last two possessions, we need to slow this game down and get it under control again." That's the exact role of a point guard. I swear our defense would be so much more effective if we slowed the game down every now and then and let our bigs get back on defense for once and let them set up in the paint as opposed to having our two seven footers sprinting back trying trying to play defense on the fly. Our transition defense is absolutely horrible and we are not doing ourselves any favors by continuously push the ball. We are talented and versatile enough to succeed both in an up tempo style, and a slower half court offense. Let's give the latter a try and see how much our defense improves.

[Slava]

I have my opinion contradicting this view. I'll put down my $ 0.02 soon!

[lakersfanatic]

I've been seeing a lot of running high tempo offense these days. I guess it pits the other team in confusion, not knowing how to set their defense. I think it's good and bad. It's good if you can get the other team off guard but it's bad if you'r unable to get back in setting your defense.
That's why you notice running high tempo teams have low D but high points.

Look at Knicks vs Warriors recent game. Sheesh.. were there no D present or they were running so much .. there was no time for D.

[shobe_81]

I completely agree, and it doesn't look well.

I mean yea we're scoring a lot of points, but guess what fellas, we're also attempting more shots which means we're gonna have the opposing team shoot more.

[Erik Eleven]

Good thread. I agree.

I'm a strong proponent of the three-peat type slow ball, as well. That's the type of game that wins series in the playoffs, where the game slows down a bit. They need to get more proficient at it so they can control the tempo and dominate the upcoming playoffs series.

I haven't worried about it too much just yet, but the players soon need to get better at identifying when to run and gun, and when to set up the slower half court offense you're talking about. Right now, our "slow" offense is moving way too fast. Oftentimes, Farmar or Fisher is rushing at the opponent's already set defense only to then turn around and realize that they have to wait for Bynum and the gang. Why? To explore if there's a stupid jumper to be had? I also miss that excitement building every time the Lakers slowly brought it up the court and started slow feeding it to Shaq. The anticipation built, the crowd got into it, and the opponent knew they had a heavy 48 minute pounding coming. That's what we need from Bynum.

I think they currently have a hard time switching tempos drastically enough when they go back to their half court set after just having run the break. They need to make it a clearer difference in pace than current. I love when they run the break for easy buckets, but that can't be our bread and butter for the playoffs or we won't even make it to the finals.

[shobe_81]

True that, the playoffs and especially the Finals become a slower pace with execution being the key. We need to get into a slow pace, we have the bigs, we can the talent, so why not?

[Chubby Chaser]

Yeah, when we run and gun, especially in the fourth we give up leads. (Hangs head in shame) This is starting to be take place more and more. It's true that run and gunning is infectious and very easy to fall in love with. But someone on our team has to know when enough is enough and start meticulously run the triangle and eat up some clock. This tempo will not win in the playoffs. It will get us a good regular season record, but it won't bring any banners to Staples. I'd be happy if we made a conscious effort to start pounding the ball inside more to our bigs, and run some clock. Especially with our bench players. I think that our bench is so used to being game changers that when they come in they all feel the need to step on the throttle and impact the game. This is generally a good mentality to have as our bench is very productive. But if we already have a lead, a wiser bench might understand that they don't have to come out and start running and gunning. It would probably be best if they come in and control the clock, and meticulously run the offense. Maybe then we can hang onto a lead for once.

Oh and on a side note. Could we PLEASE put Bynum in during the last 3-4 minutes of games. We've been giving up a lot of leads with him out during this time and I feel that we are a better team (at least defensively) when he's in.

[Patterns]

Yep. We definitely run too much. Slow down, run the offense through Pau and Bynum more. And the second unit run the offense through Odom or Bynum or Gasol.

When we run, we don't play defense and we're NOT a good running team because we're such a big team. Other teams will outrun us. We also give up HUGE leads by giving the other team more possessions.

[amb1ent]

bust out the tinfoil hats, but what if the fourth quarter (and the last 12 games in general) the coaching staff has given up on defense like the first 3 games of the year, knowing that scouts would pick up on it quick?

i mean, it seems like a classic phil jackson **** to save the new and improved d for statement games or the playoffs.

[Chubby Chaser]

bust out the tinfoil hats, but what if the fourth quarter (and the last 12 games in general) the coaching staff has given up on defense like the first 3 games of the year, knowing that scouts would pick up on it quick?

i mean, it seems like a classic phil jackson **** to save the new and improved d for statement games or the playoffs.

Now that's just insane.

[G35]

Yep. We definitely run too much. Slow down, run the offense through Pau and Bynum more. And the second unit run the offense through Odom or Bynum or Gasol.

When we run, we don't play defense and we're NOT a good running team because we're such a big team. Other teams will outrun us. We also give up HUGE leads by giving the other team more possessions.

That's a good point and I think Fisher said that after the Wiz game. When they get big lead start wearing out that 24 second clock, make the other team play defense for 16-20 seconds. Taking quick OUTSIDE shots just allows the other team to make comebacks. Sasha seems to want to get up shots as quick as he can, I think the lack of playing time makes the 2nd unit want to score as much as they can so they force shots/tempo......

[Sedale Threatt]

I think there's a lot to this.

Cut back on the tempo a bit, play better transition defense, and that probably eliminates 4-6 points a night right there, and suddenly we're looking a little more solid on defense. Maybe that's a window-dressing type of approach, but right now, we need to start somewhere.

It's just hard, especially for a team with as many younger players as we have, to flip the switch back and forth between tempos. This unit plays half court, while this unit is supposed to run. Those kind of styles are mentalities, and right now we seem to be a bit schizophrenic.

We don't know quite what we are, or what we want to be. And history will show you, with very few exceptions -- the Russell Celtics, the Showtime Lakers -- that up-tempo teams tend to lag on defense, which is by far our biggest issue right now.

Part of me says you have to take the good with the bad. We've blown a number of games wide open this season late in the third and early in the fourth with the work of our running second unit. It's a big part of the reason we built the huge lead last night, I thought. So I'm not willing to throw our bench under the bus just yet. They've generally done a really nice job for us.

But you'd certainly like them to play with a little bit more situational savvy. Like G just noted above, once you've got a 19-point lead in the fourth quarter, you've done all the hard work. The game is won. Now it's time to start walking the ball up court, taking time off the clock and concentrating on getting stops.

Part of the problem, I think, is that playing so time is so scarce, and a lot of these guys are really chomping at the bit to get in there and get some shots up and/or make the most of the few minutes they're getting.

Case in point is Sasha, who has gone from getting major crunch-time minutes/shots to being relegated back to a limited reserve role.

He's not alone. Farmar is a confident young buck still trying to make a name for himself, as is Bynum, who seems to be more focused on being a focal point of the offense than the defense (I liked hearing Phil finally start rapping his knuckles over this).

Then there's Lamar, who's lucky to get more than 30 minutes a night any more after being a full-time starter throughout his career.

The one guy that seems to have a good handle on his role is Ariza. He's still a crappy shooter, but his effectiveness would be greatly diminished playing from station to station so you pretty much have to let him go.

Note that I'm not advocating anybody's roles should be any different this year; this is a deep team, with a lot of good players, and they have to sacrifice like everybody else. I'm just pointing out how guys like that could try to binge a little when they get on the court, regardless of the situation, which compounds the problem we're talking about.

[Chubby Chaser]

I think there's a lot to this.

Cut back on the tempo a bit, play better transition defense, and that probably eliminates 4-6 points a night right there, and suddenly we're looking a little more solid on defense. Maybe that's a window-dressing type of approach, but right now, we need to start somewhere.

It's just hard, especially for a team with as many younger players as we have, to flip the switch back and forth between tempos. This unit plays half court, while this unit is supposed to run. Those kind of styles are mentalities, and right now we seem to be a bit schizophrenic.

We don't know quite what we are, or what we want to be. And history will show you, with very few exceptions -- the Russell Celtics, the Showtime Lakers -- that up-tempo teams tend to lag on defense, which is by far our biggest issue right now.

Part of me says you have to take the good with the bad. We've blown a number of games wide open this season late in the third and early in the fourth with the work of our running second unit. It's a big part of the reason we built the huge lead last night, I thought. So I'm not willing to throw our bench under the bus just yet. They've generally done a really nice job for us.

But you'd certainly like them to play with a little bit more situational savvy. Like G just noted above, once you've got a 19-point lead in the fourth quarter, you've done all the hard work. The game is won. Now it's time to start walking the ball up court, taking time off the clock and concentrating on getting stops.

Part of the problem, I think, is that playing so time is so scarce, and a lot of these guys are really chomping at the bit to get in there and get some shots up and/or make the most of the few minutes they're getting.

Case in point is Sasha, who has gone from getting major crunch-time minutes/shots to being relegated back to a limited reserve role.

He's not alone. Farmar is a confident young buck still trying to make a name for himself, as is Bynum, who seems to be more focused on being a focal point of the offense than the defense (I liked hearing Phil finally start rapping his knuckles over this).

Then there's Lamar, who's lucky to get more than 30 minutes a night any more after being a full-time starter throughout his career.

The one guy that seems to have a good handle on his role is Ariza. He's still a crappy shooter, but his effectiveness would be greatly diminished playing from station to station so you pretty much have to let him go.

Note that I'm not advocating anybody's roles should be any different this year; this is a deep team, with a lot of good players, and they have to sacrifice like everybody else. I'm just pointing out how guys like that could try to binge a little when they get on the court, regardless of the situation, which compounds the problem we're talking about.

Good post. You touched on a lot of good reasons as to the possible reasons WHY our bench is relentless in running which in turn leads to blown leads. I absolutely agree that the limited playing time is affecting the psyche of our key bench players. When they get in the game it seems that they are more concerned with making an impression and getting their numbers up that they lose sight of the main focus of keeping the lead and slowing it down. This is something that the coaches need to figure out as we cannot have another melt down in the finals like we did last year. When something like that happens in a series, there's no coming back from it. I'm convinced that our starters are 100% bought into the team concept, but I don't know about the bench. They have to make a better effort to learn how to control the game and find that happy balance of how to stay aggressive yet protect the lead while utilizing the clock. At the end of games our bench needs to learn how to close. They can run & gun and try to run up the score in the second quarter and first quarter. But at the end of the third and especially in the fourth something has to click in the mind that leads them to understand that the clock is their largest ally. Enough is enough. We can't be giving up these leads any more. We almost dropped another game to the Wizards. This is unacceptable for a team with Championship endeavors.

[semi-sentient]

Well said Sedale.

To add, this is one of the main reasons why I proposed giving Walton time over Sasha in another thread. Our 2nd unit has definitely helped us win some games, but they are also largely responsible for many of these 4th quarter collapses. They play very reckless, and when things aren't going their way, it gets downright ugly. Walton would eliminate some of that reckless play because he is smarter and has a better understanding of his role. We do lose some outside shooting, but we gain a smart player who is going to help create for others and doesn't run the ball up and down like a maniac. Defensively I'd say he's an upgrade as well.

[Chubby Chaser]

Well said Sedale.

To add, this is one of the main reasons why I proposed giving Walton time over Sasha in another thread. Our 2nd unit has definitely helped us win some games, but they are also largely responsible for many of these 4th quarter collapses. They play very reckless, and when things aren't going their way, it gets downright ugly. Walton would eliminate some of that reckless play because he is smarter and has a better understanding of his role. We do lose some outside shooting, but we gain a smart player who is going to help create for others and doesn't run the ball up and down like a maniac. Defensively I'd say he's an upgrade as well.

Yeah I was thinking about this as well. I wouldn't mind if Walton was put in the game with a big lead instead of Sasha in order to settle down the offense and make sure that we move the ball around and run the offense while using the clock. Sasha is a hole on offense. Granted he makes a good amount of his shots, but at that stage of the game with a big lead. It would be more beneficial if we used the clock instead of getting a quick three.