David Lee

method · Post #41 » by **method** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 12:29 am

nate33 wrote:
David Lee is an average player. I challenge you to prove I'm wrong without using stats. Because, you know, stats are meaningless.

I have watched the NBA for 20 years and DLee is far from an average player.

Did you know he is on pace to shatter the record for a NYK with most double doubles in a row?

His numbers since the Zach trade are 18.1 and 14.6 on 58% shooting yeah thats real average.

NetsForce · Post #42 » by **NetsForce** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 12:54 am

I feel for you nate, it's like you and I are the invisible posters in this thread.

basketball royalty · Post #43 » by **basketball royalty** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 1:04 am

Guys like DLee and Biedrins have inflated rebounding and scoring stats because of the systems their teams play in.

NYKnick87 · Post #44 » by **NYKnick87** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 1:12 am

NetsForce wrote:Stats aren't an end-all-be-all, but they do help to shed light on which players are overrated and which players are underrated.

The fact also remains, no one in this thread has been able to make a good argument in favor of what makes David Lee so good...

So I'll ask again, what's so special about David Lee?

He doesn't play any defense, is assisted on 76% of his shots, and isn't the rebounding God some people would like you to believe him to be...

He's a useful role player in the mold of a Udonis Haslem, but that's really all that can be said of him at this point in time...

I don't see how being assisted on 76% of his shots is a bad thing. Last year Dwight Howard was assisted on 68% of his shots and Amare was assisted on 70% of his shots and those two players are considered two of the top big men in the league. Lee is aware of the fact that he's not a particularly skilled offensive player, so he gets himself open and puts himself in position to score the ball. Considering his FG% is 56.2%, I'd say he's doing a damn good job at that. Another positive is that he doesn't have to be featured to score the ball, thus the offense doesn't become stagnant as it does with most post players who score off of isolation plays. There are plenty of decent big man role players in this league who are much more skilled in the offensive department, yet they can't put up numbers like Lee. That just shows how much Lee maximizes his ability when he's on the court.

Nobody is making him out to be an all star type of player. He's a good player, one that is above average. Simply watching him play will tell you that. Lee's play goes beyond the numbers; what he brings to the table other than rebounds and put backs are his intangibles. He keeps possessions alive with his hustle, improves the flow of offense by making quick decisions with the ball, and raises the intensity of play with his own. That kind of impact is immeasurable and cannot be quantified.

method · Post #45 » by **method** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 1:14 am

basketball royalty wrote:Guys like DLee and Biedrins have inflated rebounding and scoring stats because of the systems their teams play in.

Before all is said and done Lee will lead the league in rebounding a year or 2 regardless of DanTony system or not.

cdubbz · Post #46 » by **cdubbz** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 1:59 am

GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX wrote:Erick Dampier makes 10 mil a season and Rasho makes 8.5 million. If you were david Lee's agent and dint get him at least 10 mil per you suck at your job. Averaging a double gets you 10 mil a year easily.

I would honestly rather have Erick Dampier than David Lee. Damp doesnt put up stats at all, but he is a defensive anchor to a degree. He can definitely change shots and take up space and he does have post up moves. Damp isnt as bad as people think and Lee isnt as good as people think.

If every team had a choice between erick dampier and david lee, i can really see dampier getting picked simply because of his size.

From my point of view if i were the top teams in the league i would take damp over david lee.
Celtics, Lakers, Spurs, Cavs, Pistons could all use dampiers size.

supergallinari · Post #47 » by **supergallinari** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 2:05 am

lee > biendrins and dampier combined
cause they both suck big overpaid 7ft di..

method · Post #48 » by **method** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 2:22 am

cdubbz wrote:
GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX wrote:Erick Dampier makes 10 mil a season and Rasho makes 8.5 million. If you were david Lee's agent and dint get him at least 10 mil per you suck at your job. Averaging a double gets you 10 mil a year easily.

I would honestly rather have Erick Dampier than David Lee. Damp doesnt put up stats at all, but he is a defensive anchor to a degree. He can definitely change shots and take up space and he does have post up moves. Damp isnt as bad as people think and Lee isnt as good as people think.

If every team had a choice between erick dampier and david lee, i can really see dampier getting picked simply because of his size.

From my point of view if i were the top teams in the league i would take damp over david lee.
Celtics, Lakers, Spurs, Cavs, Pistons could all use dampiers size.

GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX · Post #49 » by **GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:00 am

Well I've stated my case that i think Lee is a very valuable player for the Knicks and should garner MIP votes if he keeps this up.

Dantoni or not, if he finishes the season at 18,12 on 56% shooting he will command serious money in free agency.

whipdamage · Post #50 » by **whipdamage** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:18 am

d'antoni just watches on the sidelines. he's just enjoying the success of the players but has no effect himself.

duhon is the reason why david lee is looking so good right now. duhon makes his teammates better. duhon is the reason why david lee had 19 rebounds and shot 80% ft's today.

adjacent2bench · Post #51 » by **adjacent2bench** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:18 am

basketball royalty wrote:Guys like DLee and Biedrins have inflated rebounding and scoring stats because of the systems their teams play in.

So when we played a slow, pound the ball inside to Curry's fat ass system 2 years ago, and Lee average 10 bounds of the game, that was a system thing right?

He may not play D or score on his own, but you cannot knock Lee on his rebounding numbers. He is one of the best in the game in that aspect.

albert · Post #52 » by **albert** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:37 am

GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX wrote:Seems like Lee is becoming a NY legend. The fans absolutely love him. There will be complete mutiny if he were traded or not signed at his market value

Yes.

Post #53 » by **nate33** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 5:30 am

method wrote:
nate33 wrote:
David Lee is an average player. I challenge you to prove I'm wrong without using stats. Because, you know, stats are meaningless.
I have watched the NBA for 20 years and DLee is far from an average player.

Did you know he is on pace to shatter the record for a NYK with most double doubles in a row?

His numbers since the Zach trade are 18.1 and 14.6 on 58% shooting yeah thats real average.

Don't you just love it when posters use stats as the end all and be all?

Lue_4_MVP · Post #54 » by **Lue_4_MVP** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 5:52 am

Al Harrington in NY so far is 23ppg 8rpg. Wow, who needs Lebron just give Al a max contract.

vincecarter4pres · Post #55 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 5:57 am

method wrote:
basketball royalty wrote:Guys like DLee and Biedrins have inflated rebounding and scoring stats because of the systems their teams play in.
Before all is said and done Lee will lead the league in rebounding a year or 2 regardless of DanTony system or not.

On a championship caliber team David Lee would never be on the court for enough minutes to lead the league in rebounding, regard;ess of D'antoni's system.

GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX · Post #56 » by **GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 5:58 am

nate33 wrote:Don't you just love it when posters use stats as the end all and be all?

I personally don't object to the use of stats to back up an argument. In fact the entire premise of this thread is backed by Lee's numbers in the last few weeks. I do find PER however to be over calculated stat lines. I usually just go by raw data. I tried going by PER for a little until I found some horrendous players close to or on top of lists. I don't like hyper formulated stats as they are not always precise indicators of a players value.

I just think 19 and 14 since the Zach trade cant be undervalued even if the Knicks play a faster pace

RutgersBJJ · Post #57 » by **RutgersBJJ** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 8:20 am

the entire offensive system for our team is now predicated on the pick and roll run with Lee. Something fishy is going on here in regard to Lee and his numbers. We are clearly inflating his numbers and value. His agent before this season came at Walsh with an annual salary that Walsh thought was outrageous. Lee is a fan favorite, but so was Crawful. Lee will be extremely valuable to the franchise in netting a player, or a very valuable first round pick this draft.

Lee will not be needed to inflate Curry's value to trade him. D'Antoni is an offensive genius and will figure out a way to run the offense to inflate Curry's stats just like he is doing for Duhon, Lee, Harrington, and Chandler. Just like he will be doing in the next month or two for Jeffries. Look for Jeffries to start putting up 8ppg 7rpg and 5apg. Then be traded. Everyone will fall for the fools gold that D'Antoni is pulling with our players.

I do not believe the Warriors or Clippers have won a game since we traded with them.

M.Balla · Post #58 » by **M.Balla** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 10:55 am

And the Marcus Camby award to "Worst in-game impact while stat stuffing" goes to...

KnicksGadfly · Post #59 » by **KnicksGadfly** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:01 pm

Lue_4_MVP wrote:Al Harrington in NY so far is 23ppg 8rpg. Wow, who needs Lebron just give Al a max contract.

he's had some nice numbers for atlanta before.

Post #60 » by **nate33** » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:30 pm

I stand by my assertion that Lee is an average player. That's not a bad thing. An average player is a starting-caliber player, usually the 4th or 5th best guy on a team. An average player deserves an average salary, which is a full MLE contract. Lee will surely get at least the full MLE when he is a free agent. He might get a little more, but not that much more.

The real point, however, is that he won't be a very useful trading chip for NY. Why would a team give up significant value for him when they can sign him this summer with the MLE? By trading for him, all you are doing is acquiring his RFA rights so you can match an offer. While that has some value, it's not so useful that it's worth a quality young starter or a lotto pick or something.

I think Lee can be traded for a late 1st round pick, or perhaps packaged with Jeffries to get back contracts that expire by 2010.